225 oil pan modifications

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schwinger

1972 Dodge Dart Swinger
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I’m currently building a 225 out of a 72 dart. Original engine, bored .030 over, rv cam, heads milled .080. I’m wanting to improve the oiling system after seeing the UTG clip on YouTube about the slant 6 oil sloshing all the way to the back on normal acceleration causing a load on the two rear connecting rods and possibly creating a failure which I don’t know if that’s true but I can it’s a problem. Checked out a few threads so I got some ideas I added a baffle to mine, nothing fancy but also I wanted to add somewhat of a windage tray which I just created and it’s just mocked up right now. I’m just wondering if this will be adequate enough or if anybody has done this before and had good results or advise on this

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Looks like your baffles could be bigger or you have to get your windage try to cover the sump well. Baffles also need drain back openings near the welded edge between the welds. Was it hard to weld with out burn through the pan?
 
This moroso try has louvers stamped into it that “scrape” oil off the crank and rods
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They have to be a certain distance from the rotating assembly to function properly.
 
Looks like your baffles could be bigger or you have to get your windage try to cover the sump well. Baffles also need drain back openings near the welded edge between the welds. Was it hard to weld with out burn through the pan?

Ok and I’ll open up the baffle area where it’s welded at. It wasn’t hard considering I was using an arc welder with 6013 rod and amps were around 45 or 50. I have a cheap harbor Freight Welder. The stamped steel metal seems pretty thick too
 
Yeah, slosh baffles is what I called them.My slant pan.
to keep the oil covering the pickup during acceleration and deceleration.
No burn thru during mig welding.
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I did this to my oil pan 15 years ago: Welcome to kesteb.us After 30,000 miles the engine has significant wear in areas that are usually splash oiled.

This is an F-body pan being modified to fit a '65 Dart.
 
I did this to my oil pan 15 years ago: Welcome to kesteb.us After 30,000 miles the engine has significant wear in areas that are usually splash oiled.

This is an F-body pan being modified to fit a '65 Dart.
I guess I'm stupid. Can you explain how having your baffle (very nice, btw) has anything to do with splash lube, since splash is simply drain back from the top hitting the crankshaft. The crank doesn't hit the oil in the sump.
 
Please notice the pictures with lines around the pan. This bottom line is the oil level with 5 quarts. The crank hits the oil in the front and back of the pan. This "splash" helps oil the pistons and cam shaft. The baffle eliminates this "splash". So there is significant wear on the pistons and cam lobes. The "squirter" in the rods don't make up for this lack of oil.

I am starting to believe if you want to use this type of baffle, you need to do the full Dutra oil system modification. Specifically the "stand offs" in the lifter galley.
 
Please notice the pictures with lines around the pan. This bottom line is the oil level with 5 quarts. The crank hits the oil in the front and back of the pan. This "splash" helps oil the pistons and cam shaft. The baffle eliminates this "splash". So there is significant wear on the pistons and cam lobes. The "squirter" in the rods don't make up for this lack of oil.

I am starting to believe if you want to use this type of baffle, you need to do the full Dutra oil system modification. Specifically the "stand offs" in the lifter galley.
The crank hitting the oil in the pan is not a good thing. At all.
 
Depends on the design, the 235 Chevy Stove Bolt was exclusively splashed oiled for a number of years. And wasn't changed over to pressure feed until the mid '50s. Uncle Tony has a video on why nitro cars used to use 3 gallons of oil. The increased oil capacity was used to dampen the harmonics of the combustion process. The crank was bathed in the oil.

I asked on .org just how much splash oiling was needed by the \6. I never got a satisfactory answer.
 
I'm not buying it. The crank hitting the oil in the pan turns it to foam and can end up starving the engine since the pump is designed to pump liquid, not aerated oil. The pump cannot and will not pump foam, I don't care who endorses it. That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it. I've never heard of such. Nitro cars? most of those have dry sump oiling to help keep oil OFF the crank. You can SEE the external belt driven oil pumps right on them. I've never heard of such.
 
Depends on the design, the 235 Chevy Stove Bolt was exclusively splashed oiled for a number of years. And wasn't changed over to pressure feed until the mid '50s.
.

Not totally correct. The 235 Chevy did have an oil pump, and the mains were pressure oiled. The oil pan had troughs in it, that were filled with oil from nozzles (if I remember correctly from the main oil gally). The connecting rods had "dippers" on the bottom of the rod, which scooped the oil in the trough. The oil pump also fed the valve gear. Pretty sure the last year for the splash oiler 235 CID was 1952, and 1953 was the first year for full pressure oiling.
PS: The splash oilers, also had "poured" rod bearings, not replaceable inserts.
Edit: the change over years for splash to pressure oiling, might have been between 1953 and 1954
 
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Please notice the pictures with lines around the pan. This bottom line is the oil level with 5 quarts. The crank hits the oil in the front and back of the pan. This "splash" helps oil the pistons and cam shaft. The baffle eliminates this "splash". So there is significant wear on the pistons and cam lobes. The "squirter" in the rods don't make up for this lack of oil.

I am starting to believe if you want to use this type of baffle, you need to do the full Dutra oil system modification. Specifically the "stand offs" in the lifter galley.
‘Splash’ from the crank is not going to get up to the cam lobes on a slant six.
And if the thrust sides of the pistons are showing wear, your engine has issues beyond lubrication. The piston rings ride on the cylinder wall surfaces, thrust faces are intended to have clearance.
Another question, how are Doug Dutra’s ‘stand offs’ going to address any of the issues that you mentioned? All the stand offs do is keep a puddle of oil on top of the lifters. Doug’s other oiling mods like drilling over size the crank feed oil lines and porting the oil pump get a little more oil flow to the mains and rods. And little is the operative word here.
 
I don't buy that UTG crap. You think Chrysler didn't think that through?
 
‘Splash’ from the crank is not going to get up to the cam lobes on a slant six.
And if the thrust sides of the pistons are showing wear, your engine has issues beyond lubrication. The piston rings ride on the cylinder wall surfaces, thrust faces are intended to have clearance.
Another question, how are Doug Dutra’s ‘stand offs’ going to address any of the issues that you mentioned? All the stand offs do is keep a puddle of oil on top of the lifters. Doug’s other oiling mods like drilling over size the crank feed oil lines and porting the oil pump get a little more oil flow to the mains and rods. And little is the operative word here.
I like the idea of full groove bearings.....or grinding grooves on the main journals......or cross drilling. So far though, I've had good luck with the standard volume replacement oil pump (7/8 rotor) with the high pressure MP spring. I think running a lot of oil pressure helps. It idles hot right around 68-70. Not much over 70 even at RPM because that's the relief pressure, right around 70-75.
 
I like the idea of full groove bearings.....or grinding grooves on the main journals......or cross drilling. So far though, I've had good luck with the standard volume replacement oil pump (7/8 rotor) with the high pressure MP spring. I think running a lot of oil pressure helps. It idles hot right around 68-70. Not much over 70 even at RPM because that's the relief pressure, right around 70-75.
At a PRI oil lubrication / bearing seminar I brought up the subject of full grooved main bearings and I thought I was going to get thrown out of the room. Seriously. Folks in attendance turned around a looked at me, the moderator dismissed my question by saying, let’s you and me talk privately and then went to the next question.
True Story.
 
At a PRI oil lubrication / bearing seminar I brought up the subject of full grooved main bearings and I thought I was going to get thrown out of the room. Seriously. Folks in attendance turned around a looked at me, the moderator dismissed my question by saying, let’s you and me talk privately and then went to the next question.
True Story.
That's funny. And I disagree somewhat on the splash lube from the crank. It certainly splashes some. Think how much the rods bleed from the sides of the rods and the mains, too. The cam certainly gets "some" splash there. Evidently ENOUGH. lol
 
That's funny. And I disagree somewhat on the splash lube from the crank. It certainly splashes some. Think how much the rods bleed from the sides of the rods and the mains, too. The cam certainly gets "some" splash there. Evidently ENOUGH. lol
The guy talking about the cam lobe and piston wear is defining splash as the oil that the crank kicks up from the pan.
The oil that flows out of the main-rod-cam bearings and rocker arm shaft is indeed the oil that gets kicked around inside the crank case and lubricates the cam lobes and cylinder walls.
 
The guy talking about the cam lobe and piston wear is defining splash as the oil that the crank kicks up from the pan.
The oil that flows out of the main-rod-cam bearings and rocker arm shaft is indeed the oil that gets kicked around inside the crank case and lubricates the cam and cylinder walls.
Correct.....and IF he's getting oil from the pan hitting the crank, he's doin it wrong. That's what I was tryin to tell him. John, I think you and I are on the same page.
 
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I did this to my oil pan 15 years ago: Welcome to kesteb.us After 30,000 miles the engine has significant wear in areas that are usually splash oiled. This is an F-body pan being modified to fit a '65 Dart.

Nice! But that's interesting that your getting wear. Might be a separate issue. I figure from what RustyRatRod mentioned also with the amount of oil bleeding out from the connecting rod bearings as well as the piston oiling hole on the rods squirting oil that would be sufficient enough.
 
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Uncle Tony has a video on why nitro cars used to use 3 gallons of oil. The increased oil capacity was used to dampen the harmonics of the combustion process. The crank was bathed in the oil.
I asked on .org just how much splash oiling was needed by the \6. I never got a satisfactory answer.

On UTG, while some of his stuff i agree on This i disagree on since wouldnt that create a tremendous load whipping that much oil in the pan as well as a lot of airating?
 
I did test the pan with water and simulated acceleration with the current design as well as opened up the areas where the welds were and it definitely made a difference even with the small oil slosh baffles so I’m gonna stick with this design. I would of like to extend the windage tray further where the sump was at as well as the front part of the pan but I figure the more problem area is in the back as well as the front I did take pics pics before the mod with the pan on with my phone on a timer and the clearance for the front of the pan to the crank seemed pretty close to where it’ll be tight in that area to put a windage tray in that area as well as I figure with acceleration it would push that oil back quicker idk I might be over thinking that.
First pic is the front of engine the sending is back.

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I did test the pan with water and simulated acceleration with the current design as well as opened up the areas where the welds were and it definitely made a difference even with the small oil slosh baffles so I’m gonna stick with this design. I would of like to extend the windage tray further where the sump was at as well as the front part of the pan but I figure the more problem area is in the back as well as the front I did take pics pics before the mod with the pan on with my phone on a timer and the clearance for the front of the pan to the crank seemed pretty close to where it’ll be tight in that area to put a windage tray in that area as well as I figure with acceleration it would push that oil back quicker idk I might be over thinking that.
First pic is the front of engine the sending is back.

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How much simulated oil(water I guess) are you putting in the oil pan when you do your slosh test? Not all 5 quarts will be in the deep part of the sump with the engine running.
I agree that oil moves around in the pan under hard acceleration and turns.
Racers and performance engine designers have been putting fences, one way doors and swinging oil pump pickups to keep the pickup submerged probably as long as racing has been around.
This is one of those deals where about anything done will help. Just keep good clearance for the crankshaft and rods.
 
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