302 casting potential?

[wigsplitter74]

So here's the deal, we got a free old ram 4x4, had a spare motor in the bed, it's an 87 318, my brother and I pull the valve cover to see if it had 302 heads and yea it does, he'd like to use them on his 318 build but isn't all that thrilled with the 1.78/1.50 valves so he'd like to know if these heads can be punched out to 2.02/ 1.60 and he'd still have closed chambers to keep compression up. Anyone know if this will work? and if he ports them, are they still swirl port heads?

 

[Brian Hafliger]

So here's the deal, we got a free old ram 4x4, had a spare motor in the bed, it's an 87 318, my brother and I pull the valve cover to see if it had 302 heads and yea it does, he'd like to use them on his 318 build but isn't all that thrilled with the 1.78/1.50 valves so he'd like to know if these heads can be punched out to 2.02/ 1.60 and he'd still have closed chambers to keep compression up. Anyone know if this will work? and if he ports them, are they still swirl port heads?

They should be swirl chambers...not swirl ports if they are 318 heads. In those I go to a 1.84 chevy 305 intake valve, 11/32 guide and do some porting. Going to a 2.02 valve it's impossible to get the port shaped correctly...the flow bench will say the 2.02 valve with porting is great, but the engine will disagree.
Go to a 1.6 exhaust valve and have the seat formed with a good radius cutter. Max out the pushrod pinch and those heads will make suprisingly good HP!

 

[C130 Chief]

1.88/1.60 Mopar valves are the typical combo with "302" heads on a 318. You'll need hardened insert seats for the exhausts. Given the 318's smaller bore, 2.02 intake valves won't flow enough more to offset the shrouding issues.

 

[wigsplitter74]

What about putting in mopar 1.88 intake valves? I assume that can be done and still work good and make good HP, right? We kinda figured, how much money will these free heads end up costing by time he's done with them lol funny how that works.


oops, the post above this wasn't there when I started typing this

 

[moper]

Any part can be free. It's getting the power and reliability that costs by way of getting the free parts to work right. If this is a mild build I'd just use the RHS Magnums.

 

[7demon2]

unless you are going all out with this engine, larger intake valves are a waste of time. the velosity will be killed with the larger valves. exhaust valves should be enlarged but that is it. there are many threads on here reguarding "302" cast heads. look some of them up, then if you still have doubts contact or study some info found on "bj's" site."bjr" is the small block expert on here....

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=19556

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=28974

http://www.bjrracing.com/small_block_heads.htm

 

[Brian Hafliger]

unless you are going all out with this engine, larger intake valves are a waste of time. the velosity will be killed with the larger valves. exhaust valves should be enlarged but that is it. there are many threads on here reguarding "302" cast heads. look some of them up, then if you still have doubts contact or study some info found on "bj's" site."bjr" is the small block expert on here....

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=19556

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=28974

http://www.bjrracing.com/small_block_heads.htm

Sorry...but this is not true. As long as the porting/valve job/chamber transition is correct, the larger valve size "allows" more flow and velocity. Period. You can easily find this by probing the port with a pitot tube and see the increase in velocity with FPS using a Superflow Flowcom computer.
That's what I use.
It may be a waste of time if the guy porting does not know how to shape the port correctly and do the valve job/chamber mods.
I've made over 400HP with those heads on a 408 before. Pump gas too.

 

[wigsplitter74]

Any part can be free. It's getting the power and reliability that costs by way of getting the free parts to work right. If this is a mild build I'd just use the RHS Magnums.

I've heard those RHS heads aren't bad, but this is for my 17 year old brother so when I say money is tight I mean REAL tight so we use what we have around or find deals through friends/ swap meets. The plan is to put them on a mild 318 or I'll give him a spare 360 crank and have a machinist friend turn it to fit the 318 mains, not totally sure yet. As far as port work he and I will probably just set them on the work bench, turn on the light and clean things up with the die grinder.

 

[furz4]

If it's going to be a mild build just clean them up with a good valve job and some gasket matching and run as is for now. Those heads will support 300HP in stock form. You can get power cheaper with bolt ons for a mild motor. Cam, manifold and headers with good exhaust and tune should get you more then stock 340 HP. Later when more money is available you can get serious with the mods.

 

[AdamR]

If it's going to be a mild build just clean them up with a good valve job and some gasket matching and run as is for now.

I agree, Just get it running and enjoy it. Worry about making power later.

 

[wigsplitter74]

I agree, Just get it running and enjoy it. Worry about making power later.

This is basically what I was telling him, but he made the point that while it's apart it's a good time to do the little things that don't hurt the wallet much, and being my younger brother I think he's out to beat me lol

 

[oldkimmer]

..........Just clean them up, check 4 cracks between the valve seats...check the guides..decent valve job.......b happy........they r a 25hp bolt on over X or J heads.................kim..........

 

[wigsplitter74]

Do you feel they would make 25 more hp than an X or J on a larger cubic inch motor like a 360? Kind of funny how less valve can build more power, who woulda thunk it back in the day lol

 

[Petzschler]

:thebirdm:

What about putting in mopar 1.88 intake valves? I assume that can be done and still work good and make good HP, right? We kinda figured, how much money will these free heads end up costing by time he's done with them lol funny how that works.


oops, the post above this wasn't there when I started typing this

i agree with the above statements. 1.88's are good enuff for the 318s bore size. no need to deshroud anything.
well mabey a little valve reliefs on the chamber walls. those heads work extreamly well with 360 and larger
engines too. you just need a big enuff port for the 2.02 or 2.05" intake valves. the port on the left is stock
while the port on the right is half done. these "302" heads have since been fitted with 2.05" intakes. 1.60" exausts.

I put brass sleeves down into the pushrod guides becouse the ports where a little to close to breaking through. wish I
could find my other pics... even free costs money nowadays lol.

 

[7demon2]

Sorry...but this is not true. As long as the porting/valve job/chamber transition is correct, the larger valve size "allows" more flow and velocity. Period. You can easily find this by probing the port with a pitot tube and see the increase in velocity with FPS using a Superflow Flowcom computer.
That's what I use.
It may be a waste of time if the guy porting does not know how to shape the port correctly and do the valve job/chamber mods.
I've made over 400HP with those heads on a 408 before. Pump gas too.

hey i'm no expert here , but for a basic daily driver with a little grunt, larger valves are not the way to go. you can get 350-400 hp with the small valves. there have been countless threads on here all saying the same thing. for all out drag motors maybe this would work but not for a daily driver. it would lay down on the bottom end and be a dog until it got up in the upper rpm....ask rumblefish 360, bjr racing, and others on here they will say the same thing....


here is something bjr was able to achieve useing small valves in a "302 head" on a 318

"Valves are 85-89 302 318 stock valves on the intake side (1.78)
Exhaust valves are 67-69 318 (1.50)"

"This engine makes 470 HP at the flywheel and 376 to the ground. "

pretty good i'd say.....

 

[Brian Hafliger]

hey i'm no expert here , but for a basic daily driver with a little grunt, larger valves are not the way to go. you can get 350-400 hp with the small valves. there have been countless threads on here all saying the same thing. for all out drag motors maybe this would work but not for a daily driver. it would lay down on the bottom end and be a dog until it got up in the upper rpm....ask rumblefish 360, bjr racing, and others on here they will say the same thing....


here is something bjr was able to achieve useing small valves in a "302 head" on a 318

"Valves are 85-89 302 318 stock valves on the intake side (1.78)
Exhaust valves are 67-69 318 (1.50)"

"This engine makes 470 HP at the flywheel and 376 to the ground. "

pretty good i'd say.....

Just giving you my REAL WORLD experience...you don't have to agree or do what I suggest. But your wrong!
I've run alot of sb mopars across our dyno, flowed alot of heads, and built a whole bunch of engines...20 years worth. But hey...what do I know...LOL!
I know it takes alot more to get 500HP or close to that than most realize or would like to admit. And I mean any small block...mopar or other.

I only suggested a 1.84 valve...that's only .060 larger than stock....030 a side difference! It also allows a better valve job to be done and with chamber work like I posted, will pickup flow and velocity and make more power everywhere in the powerband.
OK...I'm done. LOL!! Hope this helps someone out there...if not no biggie!

 

[moper]

I typically use 1.88/1.60s in 302s if I need to use them. Because I can move the seat out which is better for power and makes the chamber a little smaller. I do a little blending and gasket match the intake, and that's it. IMO, if you are then going with larger intakes, using more port, requiring more work and cash... You should just start with a better head. Even a factory magnum or even the EQ Magnums would be a better choice for a low budget 318.

 

[1967DartGT]

I'm not a porter so forgive me if I've got this totally wrong. It is my understanding that more flow does not automatically mean more velocity. Think about a garden hose with the water flowing out freely, this has the greatest unrestricted flow but it does not shoot out very fast. But put your thumb over the end to add some restriction by reducing cross sectional area and the water shoots out much faster. I think the trick with head flow is to find the proper ballance of the 2 for your particular engine combo.

 

[BJR Racing]

Just giving you my REAL WORLD experience...you don't have to agree or do what I suggest. But your wrong!
I've run alot of sb mopars across our dyno, flowed alot of heads, and built a whole bunch of engines...20 years worth. But hey...what do I know...LOL!
I know it takes alot more to get 500HP or close to that than most realize or would like to admit. And I mean any small block...mopar or other.

I only suggested a 1.84 valve...that's only .060 larger than stock....030 a side difference! It also allows a better valve job to be done and with chamber work like I posted, will pickup flow and velocity and make more power everywhere in the powerband.
OK...I'm done. LOL!! Hope this helps someone out there...if not no biggie!

Dyno's are just that, not real world. I'm not here to argue one way or the other but I know for a fact that I have a 318 with 302 heads that makes over 500 HP with 1.78 and 1.60 valves, non roller and can and has run 87 pump gas and still run mid 11's for et's, 3330 lbs car.

Larger valve's don't mean more performance in every case, and from what I've learned not in this case. 30 years + racing.

Yes I agree with you it's only .030 larger but from ports and cc's this makes a big difference in flow, now mind you don't get to racing flow benches, as a head that we did and flowed great numbers actually lost power on the engine. And others that didn't flow so well made large HP gains.

I've talked to you before and discussed port shapes and flows about 5 years ago, since then I've found better shapes and how to get more flow from less. It's all a learning curve. Hey thats what were here for is to learn, and find out what works and what doesn't.

 

[BJR Racing]

I'm not a porter so forgive me if I've got this totally wrong. It is my understanding that more flow does not automatically mean more velocity. Think about a garden hose with the water flowing out freely, this has the greatest unrestricted flow but it does not shoot out very fast. But put your thumb over the end to add some restriction by reducing cross sectional area and the water shoots out much faster. I think the trick with head flow is to find the proper ballance of the 2 for your particular engine combo.

Now your in the right direction.

 

[toolmanmike]

That's a great analogy. toolmanmike

 

[wigsplitter74]

I was hoping I'd get your input in here, I've probably read your website 20 times today lol.

Do you feel these heads would work good on something like a 10:1 349 strkr? with either the stock intake valve or a 1.88 and with a 1.60 ex along with some mild port work? I realize that's a kinda vague description but I'm interested to hear your thoughts, thank you.
Now I know I've said my brother is doing a tight budget build but he got a free 68 318 so there's that forged crank or I'll give him a 360 crank and through some horse trading I can get the mains turned, remember people, you don't always have to spend money to get things done just keep in mind our old friend the barter system 8)

 

[Brian Hafliger]

Dyno's are just that, not real world. I'm not here to argue one way or the other but I know for a fact that I have a 318 with 302 heads that makes over 500 HP with 1.78 and 1.60 valves, non roller and can and has run 87 pump gas and still run mid 11's for et's, 3330 lbs car.

Larger valve's don't mean more performance in every case, and from what I've learned not in this case. 30 years + racing.

Yes I agree with you it's only .030 larger but from ports and cc's this makes a big difference in flow, now mind you don't get to racing flow benches, as a head that we did and flowed great numbers actually lost power on the engine. And others that didn't flow so well made large HP gains.

I've talked to you before and discussed port shapes and flows about 5 years ago, since then I've found better shapes and how to get more flow from less. It's all a learning curve. Hey thats what were here for is to learn, and find out what works and what doesn't.

Well...if dyno #'s don't translate into E.T. then something IS wrong...everytime I pickup power on the dyno, it translates into e.t. Period.

As for flow and velocity, you want the most fps you can have and still make power. Velocity does not mean HP either!

 

[oldkimmer]

.................Yes, 302s will work great on a 349 stroker, more than likely that 68crank is cast.....unless its a truck 318-3.......kim.......

 

[BJR Racing]

Well...if dyno #'s don't translate into E.T. then something IS wrong...everytime I pickup power on the dyno, it translates into e.t. Period.

As for flow and velocity, you want the most fps you can have and still make power. Velocity does not mean HP either!

I agree with your velocity thing also as you can get too much and spearate the fuel from the air. But most of the time dyno numbers will give better ET's but there's too many factors that you have to take into account to get the engine HP numbers to work out. I've seen and I'm sure that you have also that a engine that came off a dyno that didn't perfrom like it should in the car. Everyone needs to relise that a dyno is in a controlled enviroment and not subject to track conditions or air changes, let alone the tune up that it will have during racing conditions. Or street for that matter. What works in one instance may not work in another. So all I'm saying is that yes a dyno is a good thing but keep in mind that it's still only a tool of the trade and not absolute.

Hey I'm not argueing with you, just saying that there's other ways of making power, lighten up. This is for info to the GP. Not everyones ways are best, mine or yours, it's more to what the end users needs are than anything. I look more to what sells today and thats general street useage and bracket racing. Not everyone needs engines dyno'd or heads flowed for there use. Just good sound advice, isn't that what it's all about.