360 hydraulic lifter failure

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TT5.9mag said:
Seems the timing isn’t the main culprit of the overheating. I’d look at pulley ratio next since youve tried different fan setups already.
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Thanks. IIRC the pulleys are 1:1. I've been looking at old posts when I was putting the front of the motor together and now I'm unsure what crank pulley I've got installed. I had a small one and a larger one.

After I installed the Flowkooler and Cold Case parts, the radiator flows like whitewater canyon. Not frothy, moving.
 
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I finally got a chance to measure the pulleys. The water pump pulley is the standard 6-7/8" diameter BPE Water Pump Pulley - Bouchillon Performance Engineering

The crank has two pulleys, both the same size, approx. 6-1/2". I don't know what it came from. Bouchillon only lists one with a larger outer (PS) pulley. BPE Double-Groove Crankshaft Pulley - Bouchillon Performance Engineering

To spin the WP faster I need either a smaller WP pulley or a larger crank pulley. There is no room to go larger with the crank pulley, and the 6-1/2 that I measured is probably 6-9/16, same as the inner pulley on the Bouchillon part. The water pump pulley is just your garden variety WP pulley, same as Bouchillon lists. I'm unsure if there's anything smaller with the same offset (I've got a couple of smaller ones for A/C cars but the offset is wrong)

So I don't think I've got a pulley problem but I'm always happy to be wrong.

FWIW yes the PS pulley on the crank is smaller than the typical part, but all that does is turn the pump slower and maybe take some of the edge of that typical Chrysler PS feel.
 
Just so you have a comparison, on a magnum the crank pulley is 7-1/4” and the water pump pulley is 5-1/2”. I think you need to find a way to spin the water pump faster.
 
Depending on the tools/equipment you have [ lathe, welder etc ], you can often get the correct required diam pulley with the correct offset by cutting/welding two pulleys. Done it many times.
 
Bewy said:
Depending on the tools/equipment you have [ lathe, welder etc ], you can often get the correct required diam pulley with the correct offset by cutting/welding two pulleys. Done it many times.
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To be honest, I can weld, don't have a lathe, but I'm not going to do that even if I did. There are no skills like that around here.

Is there anywhere I can get a smaller WP pulley that has the needed offset?

The pulleys I've got are factory sized and I'm damned tired of spending money on the car.
 
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FWIW looking at March's site their high flow setup is 1:1 (6.5x6.5). I could buy one of those and pick up 4%.

With this crank pulley it would take a 6-1/4" pulley to get to 5% overdrive. That is the same diameter as a small block chevy, but there is nothing else right about it for my use.

FWIW the WP pulley is 3" deep.
 
Uncle Bob said:
FWIW looking at March's site their high flow setup is 1:1 (6.5x6.5). I could buy one of those and pick up 4%.

With this crank pulley it would take a 6-1/4" pulley to get to 5% overdrive. That is the same diameter as a small block chevy, but there is nothing else right about it for my use.

FWIW the WP pulley is 3" deep.
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I have talked to March and one other company about making OD pulleys but it’s cost prohibitive for me to do it.

IIRC it would be a huge cash drop for me to get them done. Selling them would be a nightmare because convincing guys that over driving the pump is the correct thing to do is near impossible.

I can’t afford to put that much money to sleep for that long.

And that’s why these companies won’t make OD pulleys. They know they can’t sell them because the de facto thinking is under drive the pump to save power.

It sucks but it is what it is.

I did stumble across a set of pulleys from a 318 in a truck and IIRC they are 18 or 20% over.

I’m going to test them on the dyno (with and without a fan) to see how much power 6% and 18-20% over costs compared to an electric pump.
 
CVF lists a 6.4" diameter pulley, so there's another percent of overdrive gained. They look the same as Marsh parts though.

From them "High flow pulleys are 1:1 ratio for improved cooling. High flow is recommended for street applications."
 

Uncle Bob said:
CVF lists a 6.4" diameter pulley, so there's another percent of overdrive gained. They look the same as Marsh parts though.

From them "High flow pulleys are 1:1 ratio for improved cooling. High flow is recommended for street applications."
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I'm chiming in a little late here. It depends on the engine app., If it is a HP motor, I would think you would want larger pullies on your accessories, to slow down the revolution of it. Some HP Mopar's have coolers on the power steering to help to cool the fluid from the high RPM range. I would think the water pump would have the same issue. Too fast a pump spinning would cause a clavation and would put you in a worst position. Sorry, I did not read all the comments, but I'm sure others had some good ideas also. I'm just referring to pump rotation. Water can only flow through the block, so fast, to get back to the pump.
 
Swinger 340 said:
If it is a HP motor, I would think you would want larger pullies on your accessories, to slow down the revolution of it.
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I had thought about that WRT the alternator, and also kind of wondered why the factory would've built them all with a 4% underdrive ratio.

I had a racecar setup so the alternator was driven directly off the crank and I had to change the crank pulley to slow it down and keep the belt on it.

If I replace the pulley, then get the short clutch and install the 216 fan, there really aren't any improvements left to try. :BangHead:
 
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Swinger 340 said:
I'm chiming in a little late here. It depends on the engine app., If it is a HP motor, I would think you would want larger pullies on your accessories, to slow down the revolution of it. Some HP Mopar's have coolers on the power steering to help to cool the fluid from the high RPM range. I would think the water pump would have the same issue. Too fast a pump spinning would cause a clavation and would put you in a worst position. Sorry, I did not read all the comments, but I'm sure others had some good ideas also. I'm just referring to pump rotation. Water can only flow through the block, so fast, to get back to the pump.
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Nope.
 
Now I've got both the high volume 1:1 pulley to replace the 4% underdriven one, and the low-profile clutch fan for the high-pitch 216 fan.

The problem I have now is the pulley is too thick, because it's aluminum, so I don't have enough "nub" sticking out to put the fan on. At least it doesn't look favorable.

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I haven't tried it yet, and it probably need longer bolts. Other than that, the pulley lines up perfectly.
 
I think you will have just enough to centre it. Use grade 8 bolts.
 
Uncle Bob said:
I was going to try to use studs if I can find them.
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Probably overkill but less likely to strip threads in the softer material so do what makes you feel better. That nub should be sticking out just enough to do it's job.
I'm surprised that this much difference in fan RPM will make that much of a difference. 5%-10% doesn't seem like much. Guess we'll find out. Good luck.
 
gzig5 said:
I'm surprised that this much difference in fan RPM will make that much of a difference.
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I'm the same - skeptical but I'm in the fight until the bloody end. Something has to be wrong.

gzig5 said:
Probably overkill but less likely to strip threads in the softer material so do what makes you feel better
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I was mostly thinking the studs would give me something to hang the fan on. Couldn't find any local because the water pump flange is coarse thread and all the 5/16 water pump studs I found are fine thread on the short end. I bought some Gr 8 bolts and washers; hoping my calculation is right and I can get them to fit in the space I've got.

gzig5 said:
That nub should be sticking out just enough to do it's job.
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I pulled the bushing out of the fan clutch and it goes on the nub good enough to be solid. I think it'll be OK.
 
Depending on how much room you have between the fan and radiator, you may have to pull the radiator to pull the fan if you use studs. Also, if you use a fan clutch, installing and removing the nuts may be difficult with studs. I'd just stick with bolts.
 
mopowers said:
stick with bolts
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I did. I used two studs to hold the fan up until I got two bolts started. Then I took those out and finished.

The one thing I screwed up on was I did not put a flat washer under the lock washer to give myself a little more room - about half way back to assembled I realized the fan clutch is slotted so it might need those washers.

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I wish I would've shot a coat of satin black on the fan. I scrubbed at it with wax/grease remover and acetone and that was about as good as it was going to get.

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I can't believe I paid $200 for that shroud.

I haven't started it yet so I can still be positive about whether this helped with the overheating or not. I'll be back later to announce the dumb thing still overheats. :BangHead:
 
I ran the engine for a while but it never got real hot. I could see the gauge "quaver" when the thermostat would open at about 180, then I could rev it up a couple of grand and the needle would start to fall.

I've got some top end noise so I think I need more pre-load. I dialed in 3/4 turn on all of them when I put the engine back together.

I had stuffed some foam in the big gap at top and bottom caused by the Cold Case brackets. The fan sucked that in and spit it out. Didn't realize it was on the header until I noticed *a lot* of smoke.

This fan moves more air than any of the ones I had tried.
 
Top end noise? I would go anther full turn on the adjuster & see if it stops the noise. If it does, you know what the problem is. If it doesn't....
 
I went half a turn each. The top end noise is gone now and the temps at least seem better controlled. If it would stop raining for a few hours so things can dry out I'd go for a spin to see if it still overheats or not.

I feel like I still need to close off that gap caused by the radiator shroud bracket.

Also, before I forget - the lifters stayed pumped up overnight.
 
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