415HP from 318ci IS POSSABLE!!

Discussion in 'Small Block Mopar Engine' started by Smooth69Dart, Jul 2, 2009.

  1. Smooth69Dart

    Smooth69Dart Active Member

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    I wanted to share this info that I found on Engine Masters...my first thoughts on my 69 Dart was to do a 5.7 or 6.1 Hemi swap...then I found this site:

    Mopar Engine - 318 Engine With 415 Horsepower - Engine Masters Magazine

    So why go big block or even a 340 or 360 when 400HP will do the job just fine for a driver or even a bracket car...and I will save a bundle not doing the swap...the build consists of 95% all stock Mopar parts...only the pistons and cam are aftermarket...I was very impressed with the results of the dyno run...hell, even the dyno guys were impressed.

    I posted this to maybe encourage those of you who want to chuck the 318 in favor of a 340-360...just want ya to know there are ponies hidden in the mighty 318:read2:
     
  2. Guitar Jones

    Guitar Jones aka Angry Johnny

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    Thanks for sharing but to answer your question sometimes 415 HP just isn't enough and the old addage that there is no substitute for cubic inches stills hold true. The 318 is a good engine, at .060 over it's just a pubic hair shy of a 4.00" bore. Not enough to really make a difference there and if you want to stroke it 390+ cubes are possible.

    Otherwise with it's short stroke it can be a high revving piece like the 340. I've thought many times about building a smaller cube version of my previous 340 because I loved that 8000+ RPM on the top end but now that everything is 1/8 mile around here it wouldn't be a good combo.
     
  3. SGBARRACUDA

    SGBARRACUDA ROY FABO Gold Member

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    I agree with more and more tracks going to 1/8 mile, TORQUE is a must. I have a 70 318 block I keep walking by and think about a 390, Tempting!
     
  4. ramcharger

    ramcharger Dismember

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    Because the HP number doesn't tell the whole story. A 400 HP 360 will be much easier to drive on the street, require less stall and gear, last longer and probably get you better gas mileage to boot. Note that they didn't start taking pulls on the dyno until 3600 rpm. Drive around at 3600 rpm and above and see how comfortable it is. Engine Masters is a great mag but you have to read between the lines when it comes to dyno tests.
     
  5. Guitar Jones

    Guitar Jones aka Angry Johnny

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    And at .060 over you could tell everyone that you have a 396 under the hood. LOL
     
  6. nemesis

    nemesis Well-Known Member

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    I dont know where it is,but theres a build somewhere about a 490 horse 318 that ran on pump gas an i dont think it was stroked either.
    But dont quote me on the stroked thing yet.
    Il try find it...
     
  7. fishy68

    fishy68 Tyr Fryr's Inc. FABO Gold Member

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    The comments made above by Guitar, SGBarracuda and Ramcharger still hold true even if they did get 490 hp running on pump gas. But it's sure not going to be nearly as street friendly as a 360 or stroker. Bigger cubes may not mean more top end hp (build dependant) but it sure does mean more torque and a smoother idle with the same cam. I bet that 490 hp 318 didn't have squat for torque under 4000 rpm. Strip only engine IMO. The only exception to the rule is if it was supercharged or turbo'd or running a nice shot of nitrous.
     
  8. crackedback

    crackedback FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    I'd take any numbers from that particular dyno with a grain of salt. Seen an engine dyno'd there, then at another place, where it made about 30hp less. The lower dyno has been almost spot on when cars have gone to the track and MPH/weight figuring HP calcs were done.

    Still a neat engine.
     
  9. Smooth69Dart

    Smooth69Dart Active Member

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    Wow!!...I didn't know there were so many 318 hatters here...I really expected a little more energy, enthusiasm if you will...even if you copied the build down to a T and ran a 600-650cfm carb to make as you all say more streetable...I think an honest 325-350HP is very streetable in my opinion...even a 100 more HP is better then what I have right now...I'm not talking about the guy down the street with 450-600HP in a car he only drives maybe twice a year, he has bragging rights yes!...I'm not trying to get mega HP, I'm just wanting to improve performance on a budget...I'm saying that those HP numbers are very doable, even if the big numbers do come in at a higher then normal use...the point being that it's there if you need it...not to mention that with higher gas prices, it's nice to know you have options...my point was to show that it's possible to get the equal HP of a modern Hemi without chucking the 318...or stroking the block or finding another bigger donor engine to replace the one you have...I also agree that cubic inches is king, yes...they are also king at the pump too, that is if you a weekend warrior or a true daily driver?

    I do plan to duplicate this particular build in the future, yes...I also plan on doing a 5spd conversion as well...between the new combo I should see close to 25mpg on the highway...I know you're all entitled to your own opinion, yes...I was just in awe over the responses I read so far...seems to be that the 340-360 is the favored SB.

    I wish you all a great 4th and happy Moparing
     
  10. Dartboy52

    Dartboy52 Well-Known Member

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    Wait! 318s rock!!!! ;) Is that more of the enthusiasm you were looking for? There are some die hard 318 guys like me around here. I have a 318 that I semi recently took apart and really want to beef up. And yes the 5.7 or 6.1 Hemi idea comes into my head all the time, I just think about how cheap it is to make those things really powerful, and even though it costs a bunch to do the swap, in the long run you can have more power for cheaper. But it seems too easy for me, swap in a hemi, throw on a few parts and you have a 400-500 HP beast. Trust me I know how great the Hemi really is, I have one with over 300 HP at the wheels with literally a handful of parts, and its in a Ram QC 4x4, can you imagine that in the Dart, would be real fun.

    But back on track with the 318s. The reason I want a beefed up 318 is for cool factor. I want a real screamer. Something with some good hand picked parts that make a real good combo. And something more or less one of a kind.

    The parts I have so far consist of a 273 forged crank, 302 Heads(Stock valves as of right now), and comp XE284H(Ran for a while with stock comp. and it behaved pretty well, can't wait to see it on ~10:1). I plan to run KB pistons if I have enough room and and I will probably change over to 1.60 exh valves in the heads. That should give me a good start.

    Good luck on your 318 build!
     
  11. clifftt

    clifftt Well-Known Member

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    I don't think its an issue of "318 haters". Everyone is giving you an opinion, and I would have to agree. If you're just looking for HP numbers, then yes, the Engine Masters 318 you're looking at might be fine. But like Ramcharger, Fishy, and most others are saying, that 415 HP is up at the higher end, so if you're drag racing, fine! But if its a casual street driver, low end torque is what you need and you probably will seldom see your engine spinning high revs. Everything else above 3000 is wasted, unless you want to be able to brag about your engine's numbers. My two cents...
     
  12. Dartboy52

    Dartboy52 Well-Known Member

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    Also that is agood article from Hot Rod( I have that issue), there are also two other good articles on the same thing that I know of, on e from Mopar Muscle and I can't remeber the other one. They were good reads too, I will try to look them up. Then also on this website check this out: http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=28974 he is a member here and a really great guy, I really want to get my heads done up by him one day when I can afford it :)
     
  13. a-bodytom

    a-bodytom Well-Known Member

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    hell i heard people havin 700 to 800 with turbos hp in 318s my frend has a 318 pushin 600 hp with out a turbo
     
  14. needsaresto

    needsaresto Well-Known Member

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    318's are cool. 360's are cooler. Big block strokers make me wet my pants....
     
  15. stroked 340

    stroked 340 Banned

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    318's are "boat anchors"...:-D
     
  16. Pana.Mopar

    Pana.Mopar Duster Down Under

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    Great article! I'd be more than happy with 350-400 horsepower from the little 318 in the Duster.. I'd love to go big block but want to keep the car matching numbers..
     
  17. Moparmal

    Moparmal Banned

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    Exactly - 400HP 318 is a highly strung, bracket car engine - its not what id want to get caught in traffic with.

    Why does this have to be about 318 "hating"? - Thats a ridiculous attitude.

    Anyone thats built a 350+ HP 318 knows that they are a highly strung cammed up engine that needs compression and gears -

    For those that need it spelled out - comp and gears = Heat, noise, crap fuel economy and STRESS on the engine.

    You need slugs and heads - $$$
    You need Gears and stall - Noise and heat
    You need CAM and compression - HEAT, noise, crappy idle, crap low down, yaddda yadda yadda.


    For a bracket car or racer - fine, go for it.

    For a regular street driven 12 sec car? - Dont expect the GF to want to "play house " after a night out in that thing!

    Signed

    Mopar mal - 318 owner (In fact Ive never owned anything else.)

    Ya dig?
     
  18. Moparmal

    Moparmal Banned

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    double post
     
  19. ramcharger

    ramcharger Dismember

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    1. Sorry man but even with a 5 speed conversion you are not going to 25 MPG with that combo. I could give you a combo that might, but it's not going to rev to 6300 rpm.

    2. The substitution of a 650 cfm carb is not going to make that combo that much more streetable, if anything, it'll just be a mismatch.

    3. Cheap is relative. Note that in the article, the heads were 360 heads fitted with 2.02 intakes, heavily milled, racing 5 angle valve job and ported. If you add in valve guides, springs, postive valve guide seals, magnafluxing, etc. You'll have a grand in those heads easy. Note that they say the bottom end was $500. You'll find that by the time you have the block magged, align honed, bored, decked, bores honed, crank turned, add in bearings, have rods reconditioned and ARP studs pressed in, pistons pressed on, add in the cost of pistons, bearings, windage tray, balancing, etc. You'll be way, way over 500 bucks. It's a cheap engine for a talented machinst like Mr. Dulcich to build, but not so cheap for the guy in the garage. Keep in mind that Engine Masters is a magazine by machinists, for machinists and plan your build budget accordingly.

    4. Steve Dulcich says that this engine "Is not completely insane to drive on the street." This is from a guy who builds 600+ hp 360's with dual quad tunnel rams and W-2 heads. "Not completely insane" means very high stall, proper gearing, big cooling and a drive to the car show and back, not 25 MPG on the highway. You'll need even higher rear end gearing with a manual trans. Forget power brakes too.

    5. I have the utmost respect for Steve Dulcich. His writing is great and has improved to the point of excellence in the last year or so. He is also, IMHO, one of the foremost Mopar engine builders and a champion of Mopars in general, but you still have to have the knowledge to read between the lines. Like I said EM is a great mag but it also assumes at least some experience in engine building (as opposed to assembling) and machining.

    6. I don't hate 318's at all, but they have limitations. I used to build ford engines way back in the day and I found out pretty quickly that building a 351C or 400M made much more sense than revving the piss out of a 302 on the street. Can 318's and 302's make great power? You bet! But it will cost you on the low end of the rev range. If you've ever driven a car with a small displacement engine cammed to make power in the mid-6K range on the street, you'd know where I was coming from. Some people can deal with it, most cannot. Then the car just sits instead of being enjoyed like it should be.

    This is just some friendly advice from people who've been there and done that. I say go with the manual trans, build for the 250-275 hp range, add a 100-150 shot of nitrous for the strip and enjoy the heck out of it. :cheers:
     
  20. Fstforward

    Fstforward Barracuda Freak

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    Back in the mid 70's, I hada 65 barracuda, 273 .060 over, built full race, professionally, dyno'd @ 422 hp, ran that little car to 12 flats on pump gas.

    Tranny was 4 speed offa a 392 hemi car, rear was a ford 9" with 4.11's and "limited slip"(not my choice, bought it that way).

    Car was a bitch to drive in traffic, plugs loading up fast, but was really fun when you pushed down on that pedal!!!!!!

    Damn, I wish I had that car back now!!!!

    Oh, and 3pmg city, 18 mpg on the highway, I drove it from Mississippi to
    Pittsburgh in December of 1974 and lost the starter in Jackson Mississippi, and this was not a car you could start down a hill and catch it in gear to start it, even in third gear, the rear tires would lock from the compression.

    FF
     
  21. Smooth69Dart

    Smooth69Dart Active Member

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    I know this is a Mopar forum, right?...I do appreciate the 318 supporters that have posted, Mopar is Mopar whether it be a SB or BB variety...my reason for posting was to get opinions and share about a high HP 318 build that I found...I am aware that all engine sizes have different characteristics...I also want to share a story that is very true...I will keep out the brand name...I had a small block bone stock 307ci which I did a street race back in the early 90's...the engine I race against was of the same variety but displaced 350ci and had headers, cam, bigger carb, intake, shift kit and many other goodies...the reason why the other driver lost was he hit his peak HP around 5,000 rpm...where I was able to keep going...at the end I was a full car and a half ahead of my competitor and I did it with a 2bbl carb!...415HP is only 1.3HP per cube which is very conservative in my opinion...a full on well built street engine pushing 2HP per cube is pushing the envelope for street use...I understand the guys who choose the 340-360 verity over the 318 and do see their point as well...I am not here to convince anyone the 318 is the best engine ever made...I'm just saying that the 318 is a nice all purpose motor that has a very proven tract record for reliability and just can't see chucking it in favor or more cubes...this is my first Dodge product, but have known a lot of people and friends that had this engine and it seemed to just keep going and going...in fact when I worked at a Dodge dealership in the early 90's I remember the Dakota 318 trucks, those trucks were pretty darn peppy and they hauled:-D

    I hope this thread was helpful in your next build decision...and hope that you too were impressed to know that using stock Mopar parts can be used to achieve a very peppy rpm engine.
     
  22. 64X2

    64X2 Mohel at your service.

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    I will keep the 318 in my Valiant, and build it in the 300-325 range with lots of bottom end torque, OD manual and some descent gears in the rear end... I'll be happily cruising.........
     
  23. Smooth69Dart

    Smooth69Dart Active Member

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    I very well rounded write up indeed...and appreciate the suggestions.

    I have driven Fox body 5spd GT's that were souped up...in my opinion they were a blast to drive...your input about the heads and all the machine work or spot on...I plan to do all the port polish and cc'ing the heads myself and have the shop do the other stuff like the bigger intakes and surfacing...still think it can be done for around $2500...my ultimate goal is a solid 300-325 at the rear wheels...and as far as carb choice goes, I may go as small as 550cfm for daily driving and swap in a 750 carb for track use...haven't decided just yet...I'm still in the planing stages but your input is very informative...thank you:-D

    As for the mileage...I don't think I'm that for off...my buddy's 5.0 was getting 22mpg, 3:55 gears and some bolt on goodies...I think with a similar setup it is possible to achieve similar results.
     
  24. Babyblue66

    Babyblue66 Cool dude

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    Only if you stroke it.
     
  25. Moparmal

    Moparmal Banned

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    My 349 stroker runs 3.9 gears but a 27" tyre - I have a cam slightly smaller than the one Dulcich used.

    I drive it 250 miles to a show once a year, sitting on 60 mph and I get 15 MPG using a TQ.

    Re - your race story - I think the point most guys are trying to make here is that peak HP is only one part of the deal -

    My problem with the article is the way Dulcich skips over the fact he had to use new pistons in the "stock" bottom end - a point I've made many times to guys down under who think this build will be less expensive than building a 360.

    The good part of the article is the way he proves you can make 400HP with factory rocker gear - I reckon thats awesome.