440 HP Estimate

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jeeper

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Hello All,

I have been deciding between a BB and a SB Duster.

Here is what I have for the BB:

Mid 70's 440

452 Heads with a valve job

It will get a rering kit and be run as is. Cylinders look good but I have not mic'd them yet.

Intended build:

Bigger Summit cam and appropriate springs

Template port the heads

.020 gaskets

Stock intake for now

Hooker 1 7/8" headers-fenderwwells

I realize that the compression will be lower than desired but it will have to work for this year.

Fairly stripped 74 Duster with 4.10's.

Any ideas on Horsepower/Et's with this combo? I may be able to spring for a cheap convertor.

Thanks, ROB
 
jeeper said:
Hello All,

I have been deciding between a BB and a SB Duster.

Here is what I have for the BB:

Mid 70's 440

452 Heads with a valve job

It will get a rering kit and be run as is. Cylinders look good but I have not mic'd them yet.

Intended build:

Bigger Summit cam and appropriate springs

Template port the heads

.020 gaskets

Stock intake for now

Hooker 1 7/8" headers-fenderwwells

I realize that the compression will be lower than desired but it will have to work for this year.

Fairly stripped 74 Duster with 4.10's.

Any ideas on Horsepower/Et's with this combo? I may be able to spring for a cheap convertor.

Thanks, ROB
Click to expand...

Yup, get your compression around 10 to 1, give er take .2, 850 cfm carb and you'll be looking at 500 HP easy with those 452 heads. ET will be dependant on whether you can get it to the ground with suspension mods, tires, a good converter among other things and oh yea you're going to have to spring for a damn good intake manifold otherwise she'll get all bunged up. :burnout:
 
I was hoping for upper 300's, close to 400 for HP but I am realistic here.

The compression is the killer here. It did have the .040 gaskets in it. I can get a hint of compression there but not much.

It did look good inside. I am hoping to locate an aluminum intake before I get started.

Thanks, ROB
 
I think 400 is a safe bet. Torque may be lower than expected with those headers, but you never know. Some of the most fun engines I've had were basic "stock with a cam" builds.
 
moper said:
I think 400 is a safe bet. Torque may be lower than expected with those headers, but you never know. Some of the most fun engines I've had were basic "stock with a cam" builds.
Click to expand...

I got to respectfully disagree. That engine stock at 9.8 to 1 compression and with 452 heads was 375 HP, and some would argue it was actually 405 HP. You go to a high lift flat tappet cam, like the MP .509" or better, and do the head work he's talking about and 500 HP is a good number. I know I've done it and checked it on a dyno. The combo would also include a M1 manifold and a Holley or Demon 850 DPer. Just me 2 cents. :evil2:
 
C'mon now Demon... No 440, including the vaunted '67 HP with closed chamber heads actually WAS close to advertised static compression when measured..and mid 70s are advertised as 8.5:1. If he's lucky, that engine will be 8:1 when calculated, after having a valve job. Plus, it's a ring and bearing job. Not a bad thing, but certainly not a huge power producer when compared to a real modern performance rebuild. Add to that a cam that is decent for the money, but in no way can it approach 500hp in an engine built around it, much less this plan. Stock 440s (non HPs are rated at 350hp in gross terms) will sometimes exceed the factory rating, I'll agree with that, but I'd also say the dyno has a lot to do with that record. That and most of the stock engines by now have been rebuilt. Better machine equipment and better parts have been used, and more attention paid to assembly. You cant really compare different dynos as apples to apples either. Do I think it will make decent power? hell yeah. Will it break 400? Very possible, but more possible it doesnt. Not every "500 hp engine" is one. Just dont profess that at the cruise nights where everyone is liable to get upset. As far as ETs go, if it can hook, I'll toss out 12.30s at 108 or so with a tight street convertor and slicks. That only takes 390hp at the crank in a 3300 lbs car. Lots of room to improve, but also a very fun budget combo.
 
I know you guys are in the know on this so I will stay out of that!

I realize that a stock freshly rebuilt 440 is around 350 HP or so if it has any compression. I'm giving up alot by not having the compression that it should and not boring etc. It is a sacrifice. My hope is that I can gain back some of my losses with the cam, intake and headers and headwork.

This is a total budget thing. People on this site don't seem to mind tightwads like some of the others!

It is not so much a tightwad thing as I also play with 4x4's and I have to put my $ there first since I live in deep snow.

I'm just starting the journey that many of you have been on for years and years.

If I can drive to the track and crack a 12 anything-12.99 I would be happy for now.

This is not the car that I want to build forever. It is step one and I have a wife who will graduate in less than a year and our income should about double. Then we can talk about 500HP......Till then 350-375 would be sweet!

Thanks so much for your help. I need to get to grading.......

ROB
 
moper said:
C'mon now Demon... No 440, including the vaunted '67 HP with closed chamber heads actually WAS close to advertised static compression when measured..and mid 70s are advertised as 8.5:1. If he's lucky, that engine will be 8:1 when calculated, after having a valve job. Plus, it's a ring and bearing job. Not a bad thing, but certainly not a huge power producer when compared to a real modern performance rebuild. Add to that a cam that is decent for the money, but in no way can it approach 500hp in an engine built around it, much less this plan. Stock 440s (non HPs are rated at 350hp in gross terms) will sometimes exceed the factory rating, I'll agree with that, but I'd also say the dyno has a lot to do with that record. That and most of the stock engines by now have been rebuilt. Better machine equipment and better parts have been used, and more attention paid to assembly. You cant really compare different dynos as apples to apples either. Do I think it will make decent power? hell yeah. Will it break 400? Very possible, but more possible it doesnt. Not every "500 hp engine" is one. Just dont profess that at the cruise nights where everyone is liable to get upset. As far as ETs go, if it can hook, I'll toss out 12.30s at 108 or so with a tight street convertor and slicks. That only takes 390hp at the crank in a 3300 lbs car. Lots of room to improve, but also a very fun budget combo.
Click to expand...

Oh, come on Moper, think positive. I was originally under the impression that jeeper would perform a block shave to get the compression up to the 10 to 1 (since those mid 70's 440 were real low comp) range else wise it doesn't make a lot of sense, at least in my books, to go through the time and expense to pocket port the 452's. After all he was talking about a complete tear down and I guess I was getting all excited. I guess I should have recommended that if you're going to yank the pistons for a re ring and hone it might be advantageous to get the deck done while everythings in pieces and then build the engine around that. Even if Jeeper doesn't want to go full bore now at least the engine internals are suitable for it in the future. :evil2:
 
jeeper said:
I know you guys are in the know on this so I will stay out of that!

I realize that a stock freshly rebuilt 440 is around 350 HP or so if it has any compression. I'm giving up alot by not having the compression that it should and not boring etc. It is a sacrifice. My hope is that I can gain back some of my losses with the cam, intake and headers and headwork.

This is a total budget thing. People on this site don't seem to mind tightwads like some of the others!

It is not so much a tightwad thing as I also play with 4x4's and I have to put my $ there first since I live in deep snow.

I'm just starting the journey that many of you have been on for years and years.

If I can drive to the track and crack a 12 anything-12.99 I would be happy for now.

This is not the car that I want to build forever. It is step one and I have a wife who will graduate in less than a year and our income should about double. Then we can talk about 500HP......Till then 350-375 would be sweet!

Thanks so much for your help. I need to get to grading.......

ROB
Click to expand...

Heh, no problem Rob, I think most of the guys on this site know what it's like to be on a budget build and have to schedule things accordingly, I know I do. Either way have fun and enjoy the adreneline rush of that big iron. There's nothing I like better than the rumble and the roar of a 440 at full song. :evil2:
 
On any low comp engine the first thing I do is offset grind the crank.060 thou, this not only increases cubic in, but increases comp ratio by 1 point, as u dont usually get the full .060 thou, more like .050 to .055.. This is a cheap+easy trick to some hp+torque. your stroke increases .055x2=.110 + 3.75=3.86 adding 13 cubes. They will index the crank perfectly when they grind it making the stroke the same on all cylinders. And no worries the piston will still be down approx .090-.100. thou in the bore. you will need .060 thou bearings. Any crank grinder can do this with no problems. They used to say that this weakened the crank, but in reality it slows down the bearing speed so there is not as much stress on the crank.I have used this trick more than 20 times with forged or cast cranks, without any problems, even on brand x stuff. I learned this trick from an old stock car racer as they were always looking for something to give them an edge, and be hard to catch while being teched. Get a comp cam, otherwise it will not make the #S with a inferior brand. u get what u pay for with cams. This build is in a 3100 lb duster=12.8@105.
 
What is the cost "roughly" for the crank exercise? The .060 bearings, never heard of those before. Are those a common item in the automotive machine area?

Thanks, ROB
 
There's nothing I like better than the rumble and the roar of a 440 at full song.

I really must venture to Okotoks next summer with my BB hunter and take you for a ride in a SB - or maybe at Race city :angel9:

BBs are fun when you get them rolling - SBs rule. :evil2:
 
oldkimmer said:
On any low comp engine the first thing I do is offset grind the crank.060 thou, this not only increases cubic in, but increases comp ratio by 1 point, as u dont usually get the full .060 thou, more like .050 to .055.. This is a cheap+easy trick to some hp+torque. your stroke increases .055x2=.110 + 3.75=3.86 adding 13 cubes. They will index the crank perfectly when they grind it making the stroke the same on all cylinders. And no worries the piston will still be down approx .090-.100. thou in the bore. you will need .060 thou bearings. Any crank grinder can do this with no problems. They used to say that this weakened the crank, but in reality it slows down the bearing speed so there is not as much stress on the crank.I have used this trick more than 20 times with forged or cast cranks, without any problems, even on brand x stuff. I learned this trick from an old stock car racer as they were always looking for something to give them an edge, and be hard to catch while being teched. Get a comp cam, otherwise it will not make the #S with a inferior brand. u get what u pay for with cams. This build is in a 3100 lb duster=12.8@105.
Click to expand...
If you offset grind .060 you only get half that (.030) in stroke. The bearing shell (and new crank pin) is .060 smaller in total diameter. You are only gaining the thickness of the bearing shell half.
 
388dart said:
There's nothing I like better than the rumble and the roar of a 440 at full song.

I really must venture to Okotoks next summer with my BB hunter and take you for a ride in a SB - or maybe at Race city :angel9:

BBs are fun when you get them rolling - SBs rule. :evil2:
Click to expand...

Now just take it easy there Leo, just because you're in love with SB's doesn't mean that I have to be. You got that puppy ready for winter yet cause it's here.
 
demon seed said:
Now just take it easy there Leo, just because you're in love with SB's doesn't mean that I have to be. You got that puppy ready for winter yet cause it's here.
Click to expand...

Ready for winter !! well I sure don't have to worry about anti-freeze - trannys @ Dominion, heads @ Biltrite, sblocks on the stand and the cars on 4 stands - Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow :toothy7:
 
340mopar said:
If you offset grind .060 you only get half that (.030) in stroke. The bearing shell (and new crank pin) is .060 smaller in total diameter. You are only gaining the thickness of the bearing shell half.
Click to expand...
I used to think that also till I was shown exactly how it is done. I will try to explain so everyone can understand this.........picture when the crank is at the bottom of its stroke, while offset grinding u are taking off the top .050 to .060 thou depending how much wear there was to start with, and only .005 to .010 on the bottom to make the .060 thou smaller size.This moves the centerline farther out, which in turn brings the piston that much further down, then that much farther up, equalling stroke increase x2. Believe me it took a while to convince me at first. I guess you may just have to see it for yourself, once you see it you will believe. .........older+wiserkimmer.
 
THEY CHARGE 2X there normal price. Ive never had any problems getting a set of .060 bearings, although sometimes they have to order them,then its a couple extra days.............Kim
 
Offset grinding moves the center of the journal over a certain amount. Ho much depends on bearing choice and condition of the outside of the existing journal. If they are decent (most used ones have some sort of grooving and taper) then you can move the cenerline by about .030" or so when specing a .030 under bearing. Normal journal refinishing means removing 1/2 the undersize from the entire journal. So .010 under removes .005" from each "side". Offset grinding means the "side" away from the main journals has little or none removed, and the "inside" surface closets to the mains loses all the material. Thus moving the centerline of the new journal "out" buy that amount. That increases the strok by twice that amount, because the piston will go "stock plus .030" on the up and the down stroke. so a .030 offset grind on a perfect journal to start will run a .030 under bearing, and increase the 3.75 stroke to 3.81. As a side bonus, the existing pistons are now effectively .030 taller in the block. So you et more stroke (and torque) and more compression (and torque) from one expense. I do recommend even in budget rerings to turn and polish the crank. You can get by with poor ring seal, you cant get by with poor oil filming. It cists me about twice the money as a typical "turn and polish" job to offest grind and index a factory crank.

Demon, I'm always trying to think positive...lol. As I said, I've had as much fun with $300 re-rings as I have with $6K full engines...lol. Currently, in my own car, I have a "free to a good home" 350hp shortblock and a set of 516s I ported and a friend did a stone valve grind on. Total with a new Holley carb is about $1500 complete air cleaner to pan with headers. It traps at 6400 and has run 113 in my '70 Cuda with 3.91s.

I think the offset grinding might be a cool deal. But also keep in mind, by changing stroke, you change the balance too. If this is absolute budget, buy a crank kit with bearings and stick it in. That's the cheapest way out. Should be less than $300 for it that way.

Edit OT: sorry for typos..I'm breaking in contact lenses for the first time..I didnt re-read things...lol.
 
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