440 overheats once and then it's happy all day

Big Block A body Tech

  1. hemijosh426

    hemijosh426 Member

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    The 440 in my dart likes to overheat once, and then it will stay 185 the rest of the day. It has a 180 tstat. When it gets up to 210 I can feel the thermostat housing, and it's not getting hot as it should. If I let it idle when I see it about to overheat it will hold 210-220 until the tstat opens for the first time. Once the tstat opens for the first time, everything is happy and it holds 185.
    I have a 440 source water pump and water pump housing. I took it off suspecting that it was a typical 440 source piece of crap, but it looks like the ports are pretty clear and large. It is a driver side exit housing.

    Anyone have any ideas? I have swapped tstats 4 times, same thing every time.
     

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  2. magnumdart

    magnumdart You in a heap of trouble boy. FABO Gold Member

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    Not sure I can help much. I'd have told you to change out the t-stat. Also, I don't really consider 210 as overheated. What did you do right before all this started to happen, or has it always been this way?
     
  3. EL5DEMON340

    EL5DEMON340 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe an air lock somewhere, try drilling a 1/8" hole in the t stat
     
  4. 1967 'cuda

    1967 'cuda Dropped on Head as a Baby

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    You don't have the thermostats in upside down maybe?
     
  5. GEO

    GEO Sarcasm Inc.

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    Buy yourself a 160 thermostat if it bothers you.

    210-220 is not over heating on a vintage engine , especially if it doesn't stay there and comes back down when the thermostat opens.

    the thermostat may well be opening when it reaches 180 degrees but the water near the sensor may be hotter.

    I myself wouldn't worry and just run it as is
     
  6. oldkimmer

    oldkimmer FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    .........do u know for a fact it is really that hot............kim..
     
  7. Mashman

    Mashman Active Member

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    My guess is what El5demon340 said, and you have some air in the system.

    Did this start occuring after something in the cooling system changed? When you refilled the radiator, did you have the front elivated so the system could be properly 'burped'?

    My guess is that there is air in the system, and it's getting caught at the thermostat. The air pocket is acting as an insulator, and while the coolant is reaching temp, the air is taking much longer. When the air reaches temp, the thermostat opens an you are good.

    Drilling a small hole in the thermostat will allow the air to pass thru the thermostat, but still hold back the coolant enough so it reaches temperature - remember the purpose of a thermostat is to get the coolant/engine hot quickly, not to keep it cool, so the hole should be as small as possible to allow the air thru, but not too much coolant.

    I use a funnel like this to fill my radiators, that way I don't have to worry about raising the radiator when filling, or developing air pockets. http://www.rakuten.com/prod/complet...s&adid=18172&gclid=CMmVk_7b2L0CFZRr7AodZhYAnQ
     
  8. krazykuda

    krazykuda FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Why don't you start it first thing in the morning, then you're good for the rest of the day...


    Ok, if you have air in the system, then warm it up with the radiator cap off. When it gets warm, then add coolant until it is full. Once the engine is warm, the thermostat should be open and you should be able to top it off and get the air out.
     
  9. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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    You SURE it is not the temp gauge?
     
  10. 80fbody

    80fbody Well-Known Member

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    You're not buying the $3.00 "autozone special" thermostat for that nice ride are you? Those cheap ones are garbage. Ask for the $10.00 one. Much better spring and action. Also before you install, get a meat thermometer & place new stat in pan of water on stove. Stat should start to open @ the correct temp. THat will tell you the problem is either air in the heads or heater, bad temp sensor or gauge. Could also be a plugged radiator or collapsing bottom hose.

    Whew. That should keep you busy.

    Also could snag a cast iron pump & housing somewhere to try. 440 source pumps aren't very good.
     
  11. hemijosh426

    hemijosh426 Member

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    Yeah I'm positive it's getting hot. I have an IR thermometer and I can visually see the temp difference between the tstat housing and the heads/block. I have put a few $10 stant fail safe tsats in and they all have the same outcome. Even has a good stant safety rad cap that holds proper pressue. If I continue to drive/ don't pull over and let it idle or shut it off for a few min... Then it goes up 230 plus and pukes coolant out all over the place... I can go about 2 miles from my house before it decides to get up to 200 then by 3 miles it's at 230 unless I pull over. Sometimes I get lucky and it opens fast enough not to puke everywhere while I'm driving. It really is driving me nuts! Lol
     
  12. memike

    memike Super Moderator Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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    Change the T stat out, it's stinking on the first heat cycle :glasses7: maybe :D
     
  13. 1967 'cuda

    1967 'cuda Dropped on Head as a Baby

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    You could always replace the thermostat with a washered opening. I know that I've seen charts on what size an opening would be appropriate if you decide to try that route.

    I think I'd try running without a thermostat first to see if the behavior stays the same. If it does stay the same then you might be able to conclude that the thermostat 'not opening' is not the issue.
     
  14. Dcuda69

    Dcuda69 Well-Known Member

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  15. 1967 'cuda

    1967 'cuda Dropped on Head as a Baby

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    The strange thing is that although you've tried several thermostats the problem persists. - And as you first stated, the problem goes away after a while but returns the next day upon initial start up.

    OK you've said that you have seen a major temp difference between the heads/block and the thermostat housing. To me this implies that a good flow is probably not occurring and that the heat is unable to dissipate. If there was a good flow, the temperature on the thermostat housing should be somewhere in the ballpark of the engine. By removing the thermostat and running without one you eliminate it as being the cause. I initially thought that you could be installing the thermostats upside down with the spring away from the engine heat. That would explain why several of them would behave the same. - And it would explain why it would take so long for them to open initially.

    If that didn't help you might have to ensure that something weird isn't going on inside the water pump housing. Unlikely but - vanes loose on the shaft when cold and then gripping as the engine heats up?

    I wouldn't think an air pocket would be the problem because the symptoms go away and return each morning. I would think that an air pocket wouldn't return daily. - Unless there is something that could cause that to happen?

    Could there be some form of internal engine problem causing this symptom that stop causing the symptom after the engine gets hot? - Trying to think 'out of the box here. - Something like a leaking head gasket that seals itself after things expand?
     
  16. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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    OK, here............I'm not "into" all the ins and outs of this new fangled micro V and most especially marine reverse rotation, but make DAMN SURE the pump is rotating the correct rotation That is, coolant flow correct.

    You can easily see this as the thing starts to warm up. Hold the throttle open some (hold RPM up), and watch the upper / lower hoses. The lower hose should show a bit of suck in, and the upper should show pressure.

    Make sure the pump is ACTUALLY not broken loose from the shaft. I had that happen on a 426 once, and it acted a bit similar. This was in San Diego, and I had no heater. It did, however, run a bit hot in traffic, and wanted to puke after shutdown.

    Make SURE it's actually getting full of coolant. To do that, pull whatever you can 'loose' when you fill it. Heater hose, the temp sender, etc, and fill "till you get water," then then fill on up from there.. The want the highest fitting you can remove under the T stat "coming up."

    And drill some SIZEable holes in the stat ring to allow bypass let's say 3 or 4 1/8 holes around the outside if you have room.
     
  17. inertia

    inertia Well-Known Member

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    I've run across these symptomms several times thru the decades,, and a new thermostat has always cured , as far as I can re-call.. try a different brand..

    hope it helps
     
  18. william

    william Well-Known Member

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    Is the internal bypass in the water pump housing open??
    If it's blocked there no coolant flow to open the t stat.
    If it's blocked or there's not at all, the heater (if your using one) or drilling a hole in the
    t stat will provide the needed flow to open the t sat.
     
  19. hemijosh426

    hemijosh426 Member

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    I'm going to check the "internal bypass" and drill some 1/8 holes in the tstat. I didn't know it had some type of internal bypass, the crappy 440 source water pump housing might not even have it.

    I bought a meziere electric water pump for it, not because of this issue but because I will be relocating the alternator soon, and that's one extra pulley I don't have to deal with. It's 42gph and the heavy duty motor so it should be plenty flow. I'll be relocating the alternator because it's getting two turbos one day... But that is another story in itself lol.
     
  20. racerhog

    racerhog RacerHog likes his Mopars

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    I say try a new pump....
     
  21. terzmo

    terzmo Well-Known Member

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    220 IS overheating ......on an old iron engine
     
  22. hemijosh426

    hemijosh426 Member

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    You have some good ideas here. The only time it loses coolant is when I don't shut it off in time and it pukes coolant everywhere. I then refill it and it doesn't loose any the rest of the day. But if I shut it off around 230 and wait for the heat to reach the thermostat and open it up, then it won't puke coolant or lose any in other ways. I originally thought the problem was going to turn out to be too smal of ports in the 440 source housing, but they look like a pretty decent diameter. Maybe the housing is restrictive where it makes the 90degree turn, I'm going to check it out and see.
     
  23. hemijosh426

    hemijosh426 Member

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    I agree completely. I try not to get over 210 215... If I sit on the side of the road and wait for the heat to reach the tstat then I'm good to go. I'm hoping drilling some holes in the tstat will allow more flow, possibly allowing the tstat to work as designed.
     
  24. hemijosh426

    hemijosh426 Member

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    I use to carry a hammer with me to bang on the tstat housing because I thought that was the problem too lol. But 3 tstats later, still got the same problem.
     
  25. femtnmax

    femtnmax Well-Known Member

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    I had to do some "porting" on my 440source water pump housing to make the port areas more consistent. I'm using the pass side lower hose outlet. The biggest problem I found was the water flow inlet/outlet holes in the casting are not lined up with the engine block holes. I had 1/16 inch of gasket separating inlet from outlet on the drivers side, rather than the 1/4+ inch as on the engine block.

    I glued the gaskets to the housing, then lightly coated with blue rtv and bolted overnite to the engine block...this clearly showed the passageway misalignment.

    I egged out the bolt holes to shift the casting (down if I remember right). This did not help as much as I had hoped. I'm going to try it and see how it works. My back up is an oem cast iron housing.
    I wanted the alum weight savings, but for pass side hose there are limited choices, and the 440S casting would have been great if they bothered to make the mold properly...at least correct the mold before going into production. Where I work these mistakes would not be tolerated, instead demoted or out the door you go.
     
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