440 vs 360 barracuda

Big Block A body Tech

  1. MagnumBarracuda

    MagnumBarracuda Active Member

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    First off, sorry if this is in the wrong section. I have purchased a 4006630-440-8 stock 440 engine. I am seriously debating on putting this engine in my barracuda with TTI headers. It has manual brakes and steering so I'm not worried about losing those. To make it worth it to me, I would want 500 to 550 horsepower and a lot of torque. I would want to build it with weekend street-ability in mind. I'm talking 10:1 compression at most, .550 lift cam 110-112 degree separation with aluminum heads and dual plane intake. My question is (assuming this power level is do-able with the compression and cam): how street-able is a ~525 horsepower 440 when considering daily reliability, fun, and cooling. I currently have a 380 horsepower 360 magnum with a 4 speed (3.55 rear gear) and cal-tracs. It has a single plane intake (650 carb w/ mech secondaries) but manifolds not headers. I absolutely love driving this car as a daily on weekends, but I want to scare passengers a little more. I want to be able to do the same thing but with a big block. I can build the magnum up to around 450 horse with relative ease, so is it worth it to put the big block into the car? I do not want to take time, MPG, or money into account as these are not deciding factors for me. I fully understand that it would be much cheaper to keep the 360. Also I'm 23, so street-ability may mean something different to me, that I'm not as concerned about ride quality, noise, etc. Fun is my main concern. Thanks
     
  2. rumblefish360

    rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away FABO Gold Member

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    Building a 440 at the power level (even more so at a 10-1 ratio) is easier than falling down on purpose.

    Enjoy!

    Search posts and thread on this matter by member Jim LaRoy. No if I could only remember his screen name damn it!

    Ahhhhh, i remembered!!

    IQ52

    Oh! Also search member AndyF
     
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    • Murray

      Murray FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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      I own an original 383 '68 cuda, 4-sp and it is fun! With the mods you're anticipating, the HP numbers should be attainable. Don't forget a large radiator and this will be a premium fuel car. Already on my car I must be careful on how much throttle I give it because it is so easy to break them loose- yours will be even more so. A 8 3/4"rear end at the least. Have fun.
       
    • AJ/FormS

      AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s

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      I think you can scare 'em a lot easier / cheaper;(edit; oops sorry, erase cheaper/easier and substitute "just as well"), with a little re-engineering of the current combo. Your manifolds and small carb are killing your 360, and the 3.55s are like tying it to a tank.
      That 380 motor has a pretty big cam in it and the power peaks at around 5500, but the power only falls off a tiny bit by 6000. And Ima thinking it could go another 300 or 400 more after that.So lets call the 1-2 shift at 6300, which drops into second at 4540; yeah that looks about right.
      But I bet you are short shifting it at maybe 6000, and dropping into second at 4430rpm, and the power there is about 350; look at the dyno-chart.
      The thing is with 3.55s, 6000 is 53mph., and now ;
      With only 9/1 scr and that big 288/292/108 cam in it, the cylinder pressure is about 131psi @ sealevel and the VP is a mediocre 104. When you stuff it into second at 4320 the engine will struggle a bit to get back up on the cam.
      And therein lies part of the problem
      For performance in my streeter, I gear it to hit the power plateau at or near 60-65mph. This means that you will go thru the power peak twice and annihilate the tires. Well, with the Caltracs maybe you'll just ET stupendously well.
      So what gear is that"
      Looking at the chart I pick 5700rpm as the trap;and with an 85" tire roll-out, I get 3.82gears for 62.5mph; so round up or down to 3.91s or 3.73s, depending on how much you wanna scare your passengers. The 3.91s will get you 5700=61mphin second gear.

      But the biggest problem still remains which is the 104VP/131Psi cylinder pressure. This leaves an awful lot of room for improvement .
      Between the low-compression, the no headers, and the small carb, I'm betting you could pick up the possible 350 hp you now have to 400hp easy enough, and the torque might go as high as 440.
      With 74degrees of overlap, that cam loves headers. I'll guess you are loosing over 25hp with logs, and another 10-15 in the small carb. That puts you at about 340 right now, assuming the exhaust is free-flowing. If you install the parts that were on the dyno engine, and actually get the 380, then a pressure boost to 160psi, would probably get you another 15hp. Not much but about the same as the next bigger cam. The difference is that the next bigger cam will gave away some more bottom end, whereas the higher compression will boost the power everywhere especially in the lower rpms. Is it worth it? IMO only if you can do it with gaskets.
      But the real gains come when you swap to Aluminum heads and are able to run up at 190psi
      The current combo is advertised at 9/1, and that should get you 131psi@104VP@ sealevel
      The hi compression iron head version would be at 161psi@128VP, with 10.6Scr.
      The aluminum headed version would be 179psi@142VP@11.5scr
      At 140 you will finally have a powerhouse engine that with 3.91s will be a dump-it-and-go deal, no more slipping the clutch out and sounding like an old 5.0 Mustang.
      Happy HotRodding
      Oh yeah, at 400hp you won't, rather, I wasn't , looking for any more hp. 400 on BFG TAs is flippingdangerous.
       
      Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
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      • qkcuda

        qkcuda Well-Known Member

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        I am now somewhere between 550-600 hp with my 500 stroker, with a similar cam and heads. It also makes over 600 lb/ft of torque. It is an absolute blast on the street with all that torque, and it will scare passengers. I realize the difference in the cubic inches, but you will still have a torque monster. By the way I still run a 3.55 gear and it is plenty.
         
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        • rumblefish360

          rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away FABO Gold Member

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          And this is where closed chambered heads/Miller heads, more torque converter and gear come in together great WITH ported heads on that mill.

          Or spend mo-money on a 440. Not that it’s a bad idea....

          Pick your poison! Drink up!

           
        • Dana67Dart

          Dana67Dart Like a fine wine, only getting better with age! FABO Gold Member

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          I have just one word.... Nitrous.
          :steering:
           
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          • MagnumBarracuda

            MagnumBarracuda Active Member

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            How did you calculate the aluminum head at 11.5 SCR? I figured it would go from 9.0 to around 9.8.
             
          • AJ/FormS

            AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s

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            I don't recall, that was 6 months ago, my notes are gone.

            Oh I get it;
            It looks like I just entered 11.5 into the calculator to get the VP into the 140s where the fun starts.
            My 360 came in at 11.3 Scr easy enough
            At 367 cubes/752cc per cylinder, 11.5 would be 71.6cc max total chamber volume. I think the aluminum magnum heads are 58cc, plus 5 in the eyebrows, zero deck and 8.6 in the FelPros comes to 71.6 imagine that.
            So that's probably how I got it.

            Because VP is low rpm performance indicator, VP only matters if
            1) you have a manual trans and lo-performance gears, or
            2) you have an automatic with a low-stall TC and lo-po gears
            By 3000 to 3500 depending on the combo, VP is no longer a performance factor.

            With a manual trans;
            and the typical 3.55s, 3000 rpm in first gear is ~26 mph, so any time you are driving below that, VP begins to be important. And the slower you drive, the more important it will become. So obviously, most of the time, when you take off, the engine will NOT be at 3000 rpm,lol. And the more VP you have, the less throttle you will have to use to get moving.
            Then there is cruising speed; the more VP you have, the less throttle you will need to cruise at, so the potential for best fuel economy is increased.
            Next is second gear. 30mph is ~2540rpm . So say you are cruising along, and you want to accelerate, but you don't want to downshift to get 30@3520, cuz you just want to pick up the pace a lil. Well if your VP is down at 120, it's gonna take a lotta throttle to make some power; whereas if your VP is in the 140s, the car will practically leap ahead.
            Ok now hang on; We can use that to our advantage. With the higher VP, the take off is easier and more rapid with the same throttle...... so then we could use less rear gear, and pick up some fuel economy at cruising speed.
            Or if you think about it from the other side, you won't have the added expense of a bigger rear gear.
            So if you combine this thinking;
            let's say it costs you $1000 to pump up your VP into or close to the 140s. But you don't have to buy/ install gears (assuming you have at least 3.23s), so you save about 450 on that deal. If you have an automatic, you may also get by with the stall you now have, so now you are sneaking up on the break-even point. Next consider how much money you are gonna save by getting 2/3 or more mpgs on the hiway, over the life of the engine. And finally consider how much easier that extra torque ( cuz that is what the extra VP is pointing to) is gonna make your life because you don't always have to mash the pedal. With the higher cylinder pressure comes an across-the-board power increase through out the rpm range, every part of it will have more power. There is no downside to increased VP, except the initial cost of pumping up the pressure.
            One more thing; with a manual trans, it becomes increasingly difficult to keep the engine running, as you come to a stop. Trying to drive 4 mph with street gears without riding the clutch is nearly impossible.But if your combo has lots of VP, then it is a lil easier, cuz the engine , if you can idle it down to 500/550 in gear, it will have enough power to do that. In fact it will have more than enough. It will have so much, that with a 223 FTH cam, it will start to buck and kick like a mule and try to twist off the driveshaft. The cure for that is to take out timing, to reduce the power, to stop the bucking.

            If you have an automatic; all these points are still true, but now you don't have the clutch, so the stall has to be carefully matched to the VP, or else, with small VP, the bottom end gets real soft in a real big hurry. And you won't have the bucking issue at 4 mph.

            For me,( 360 4-speed/3.55s) the switch begins right around 140. VPs in the 130s are not the end of the world, but you won't be bragging on that engine. 140 to 145 is a sweetspot, with enough low-rpm torque to have a lotta fun with. By 150, you are spinning tires right outta the gate, and in second gear @30 mph, it will light them up too.
            I'm at 154VP/178psi roughly, and yes that 367 has more VP than it needs....... but it is so much fun, even with 3.23s. I could easily run 2.76s, and I have;just for kicks.
            154VP is BB teritory
             
            Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
          • 512Stroker

            512Stroker We are all here because we are not all there.

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            You will need a 26 in wide radiator to cool that beast.
            What size opening do you have in your current radiator core support?
            SBM core supports are 22 inches.
             
          • fishmens67

            fishmens67 Well-Known Member

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            I sure hope the OP decided on the 440.
            The difference of night and day over a 360 on the wild side.
             
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            • 318willrun

              318willrun Roadkill '80 D150

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              Imagine why I'm interested..... :D
              :popcorn:
               
            • MagnumBarracuda

              MagnumBarracuda Active Member

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              The 5.9 is out of car at the moment. No parts have been ordered so far. My build for the 440 alone is somewhere around the $10k to $12k mark. I have a 23 spline 4 speed. Ive been told that wont hold what i'm trying to build and neither will the rear end. Assuming they can survive, at the very least i need a new bell housing, motor mounts, and headers. Probably a radiator/ oil cooler. Building the 440 will break the bank something fierce. Money is not my chief concern but i could build the 5.9 and buy another Mopar. I love the car so much as it is. I may leave the 440 for another Mopar, probably a B-body. So to say the least, im very indecisive at this point.
               
            • rumblefish360

              rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away FABO Gold Member

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              The 5.9 is a pretty good base to have a fun street strip car. Without changing the pistons, your limitations aren’t bad ones. Depending on how far you want to push the strip effort on a street strip car, you could do pretty darn good. But the way you get there May make the car and/or yourself a little unhappy because it will need more gear, converter and cam for a low 12 or high 11, where as 440 will require a good bit less.
              The 5.9 is just easier and cheaper at this point.
              (Assuming the 5.9 is a runner and the 440 is a builder.)
               
            • MagnumBarracuda

              MagnumBarracuda Active Member

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              Your assumptions are correct. I may end up with a great 408 stroker. At the end of the day, the A-833 4-speed makes the car so enjoyable regardless of power. I have a set of 26 inch tall slicks that will work decent with the 3.55 gears. At the very least, for the 5.9, i would go with Edelbrock 58cc heads and a Howard cam, most likely: Lift .565 / .565, Duration @ .050 235 / 241.
               
            • rumblefish360

              rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away FABO Gold Member

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              A good plan indeed.
              FWIW, (did you) check out the new Trick Flow head that is Magnum & LA capable? It will use LA intakes.
              Rocker gear is supported via Harland Sharp and specific for the block used. AKA, pushrod or through head shaft oiling.
               
            • pittsburghracer

              pittsburghracer FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              I love both big and small blocks but for the horsepower range you are looking for it would be small block all the way. Lighter, better handling, easier to work on, and your car is already set up for a small block. Win win.
               
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