70 duster: updating, and a no-dough pro-touring makeover

[dusterbd13]

the origonal build thread on this car can be found at
http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36043

the reason I'm doing a new thread is because I'm changing the direction of the car a little bit.

When i did the car last time, i was trying to go for resto/high school recreated. i succeeded.
the problem is, I've never really enjoyed the car all that much. its been "done" for a few years, and i have about 1500 miles on it. most of those miles were put on out of feeling guilty for owning a car that i don't drive.
since I've built the duster, i built a truck.
http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43374

i actually drive the truck. i put about 10k on it in the last year and a half. i enjoy it. it handles good, runs out good, and stops good. looks good, gets attention.

i built the duster for the pleasure car, but get no pleasure. yeah, its fast. yeah, it looks good. but it doesn't handle or stop worth a crap, its cranky, it rattles, its hot, and its loud. oh, and uncomfortable.

I've contemplated selling it a lot of times, mostly because i don't drive it.


anyway, there's reasons I'm updating it a bit.
1. I'm bored with it.
2. the above mentioned deficiencies.
(and the coolest)
3. my family and i are starting to take weekend trips around the southeast to historic sites, festivals, etc. just spending time together as a family, going places and seeing stuff. My wife and i were talking about this, and i got the idea to build an impala wagon to do it in. went looking at a couple. after the last rust bucket, my wife started to question me about why i wanted "another old car you wont drive". i explained to her my vision of a daily drivable, comfortable family cruiser. her only question was "why not the duster?"
i tried to explain to her. she gave me "the look". i tried to explain some more. she continued to give me "the look".

after w while, i stopped talking. she looked at me and said: spend the time and money doing it to the red car. its paid for, and rust free.

wow.


why the hell didn't i think of that a whole lot sooner????


so to that end, Ive been planning, looking, and starting to work.


when i went down to the shop to start the car so i could get it cleaned up last month after this conversation, it wouldn't start. the last time i drove it, it was cutting out on me at random times, wouldn't idle worth a crap, etc. so i figured my old MSD box was taking a dump. pulled a plug and checked for fire. have fire. so it had to be fuel. a little bit of ether to get things started and the mechanical fuel pump primed. fired right up on ether, died right back out. stabbing the gas pedal and repeating this procedure got me nothing.

figured out it was a bad fuel pump. no volume, no pressure. occasional spurts of gas, but nothing consistent.

went down to the parts store, and bought a Holley blue pump and regulator combo. also grabbed some fuel injection hose, and some fittings from Lowe's and tractor supply.

a couple of hours later, here's what i was looking at:

when i had wired the car, i had left a lead for an electric fuel pump, just in case i ever wanted to run nitrous. so i didn't even have to wire anything!! i placed it on the rear subframe, inside the torque box bu the front spring hangar. i think I'm going to paint it black, as you can see the shiny of it from some angles walking around the car.
i was warned that they were loud, but unfortunately i did not listen. they are. thankfully, i cant hear it over my 3 inch exhaust or rattles.

i then quickly realized that the regulator in the box is required, not suggested. that left me a dilemma about where to put it that would be clean and neat, as well as adjustable and accessible.

i finally wound up putting the regulator where the mechanical fuel pump lived. as i had to make a block off plate anyway, i got creative. i used 3/8 thick plate, cut to match my fuel pump gasket. drilled and tapped the three regulator bracket mounting holes, used the piece of 5/16 fuel line i cut out as spacers, and some stainless machine screws to hold it all together. i had about 10 foot of 3/8 line left over from pluming a big block new yorker, so i used if for my new metal lines.

here's the finished product.

looked pretty good.
fired right up, and after playing with the Holley yet again, and again....

i ripped the damn thing off. it was a highly modified 850 double pumper. got it instead of some money owed to me. put it on craigslist with a FOR TRADE heading.

i wound up with a brand new, in the box, 750 manual choke edelbrock.

old:

new:

installed a fuel pressure gauge and spectre fuel line.
it runs and drives a lot better now. I'm down a BUNCH of power, but then again i haven't tuned this carb in yet. its also a manual choke, and i will be converting it to electric.

so now the car runs and drives again. i had previously swapped in a 3.55 gear instead of the old 3.91. so far, all these changes have been positive, and i can actually drive the car now for more than 20minutes without getting a migraine and having to work on it.

about 45 in though, the front intake seal started leaking. now i can change that out. I'm debating getting rid of the single plane for a dual plane while I'm at it. I've already de-tuned it this much, why not more??

also, I'm starting on the rest of the drivability issues.
first thing was safety and handling. the dunlops that were on it were purchased in 2000. they're a little old.

on craigslist, a set of mustang bullitt wheels came available for 175. so i bought them. 17X8, with two usable 255/40/17 tires. i traded the worn out 275/40/17 from the rear for a pair of equally worn out 255/50/17/

these sizes equate to a 1 inch diameter reduction in both ends. for fitment, i had to use 1 inch hub-centric spacers on the rear, longer wheel studs and 3/8 spacers front, and new lug nuts. for a total of 275, i have wheels and tires on my car. and yes, i need new tires for my new wheels and tires. these are for checking for rubbing, handling, etc.

the next step is to lower the car 1 inch all the way around.
ill currently be doing this via blocks and t-bar cranking, but in the near future i will be getting the hotchkis rear leaves to do it properly.

also, near future plans:
power brakes: already have all the parts, just need to rebuild the, clean them up, and install them.
3 point seat belts
new seats for the front
AC
alignment (tube uppers)
that's the short list right now.

overall goals are a good handling, good looking, great stopping, comfortable, family friendly cruiser.

thanks for looking, and i welcome feedback and suggestions. also, you're welcome to tell me I'm screwing up a perfectly good, fast street car. that's what a couple of my buddies say....


michael

 

[DionR]

Very nice, I like it!

Tell your buddies to meet you at the top of some mountain and the have them follow you to the bottom. Bet they don't think you are screwing it up then.

 

[autoxcuda]

also, near future plans:
power brakes: already have all the parts, just need to rebuild the, clean them up, and install them.
3 point seat belts
new seats for the front
AC
alignment (tube uppers)
that's the short list right now.

overall goals are a good handling, good looking, great stopping, comfortable, family friendly cruiser.

thanks for looking, and i welcome feedback and suggestions. also, you're welcome to tell me I'm screwing up a perfectly good, fast street car. that's what a couple of my buddies say....


michael

What shocks do you have on there now? If KYB's or the like, put on the Hotchkis Bilsteins BEFORE spending money on tubular upper A-arms. Bigger impact from the shocks. Refine later with tubular UCA's and more $$ arrives.

I drove a car with the XV type seat belts in it recently. Those were not even on my short list of future parts. BUT they are now. Especially if you are taking your family around.

Do you have a stock front sway bar on it now. Maybe get a used cheap 1 1/8 bar that will hook up with your current (addco?) mounts. Like $60 or under delivered to your door. Not the best, but an improvement for the time being.

What don't you like about your brakes? Hard pedal? Rear lock up?

Look for good used BMW seats or the like in junkyards to save you some money. Your black interior is easy to match.

 

[dusterbd13]

gave an addco 1 1/8 bar front, 7/8 rear.

KYB shocks. ive been thinking about the bilsteins, but figured there would be much more gain from the tube uppers. reason being alignment. right now, i cant get it where i want it. if i wind up going tall spindles and lower, ill be even further out from where i to be fi the geometry in my head matches the car.

BMW seats......my butt feels good just thinking about them.

thanks for the kind words, guys.

what i dont like about the brakes:
1. hard pedal
2. no initial bite.
3. very non-linear pedal
4. no air in the lines, and everything within spec, but lots of free play at the pedal.


and safety comes first. y'all.


michael

 

[howco4]

I think your planned build ideas for your car are great. My wife does not like to ride in my Dart. She says its too loud, and needs an AC. I have a Plymouth Sebring I will be building, with the same ideas in mind. You'll have a nice ride when your done.

 

[autoxcuda]

gave an addco 1 1/8 bar front, 7/8 rear.

KYB shocks. ive been thinking about the bilsteins, but figured there would be much more gain from the tube uppers. reason being alignment. right now, i cant get it where i want it. if i wind up going tall spindles and lower, ill be even further out from where i to be fi the geometry in my head matches the car.

What alignment numbers can you get now? Do you have offset UCA bushings. I'm surprised since the adjustable tubular strut rods should help a little too.

The shocks are worth more than a couple degrees of caster.

what i dont like about the brakes:
1. hard pedal
2. no initial bite.
3. very non-linear pedal
4. no air in the lines, and everything within spec, but lots of free play at the pedal.

What diameter master do you have? What pads do you have? Power will probably help most of that.

 

[dusterbd13]

i honestly dont know what i max out at. its currently at 0 all the way across the board. 0 camber, caster, and toe.

brakes are using a stock 69 cuda manual brake master. raybestos pads, 11.75 rotors, 76 dart calipers, stainless lines. 11X3 finned drums reat, d100 cylenders, rabestos shoes, adjustable prop valve inline with a76 dart combo valve for a disc/drum car.

im wondering if i should gut the combo valve too?

also, im thinking about using a set of taller FMJ spindles, cobra rotors, and aluminum C5 vette calipers. a factory cherokee disc setup rear. what do you think?

Michael

 

[DionR]

.. cobra rotors, and aluminum C5 vette calipers...

How do you plan to do that?

 

[autoxcuda]

i honestly dont know what i max out at. its currently at 0 all the way across the board. 0 camber, caster, and toe.

Do you have offset UCA bushings? Do the cams look maxed out?

brakes are using a stock 69 cuda manual brake master.

1 1/8" bore is too much
1 1/32 bore if pretty stiff
1" people like.

raybestos pads, 11.75 rotors, 76 dart calipers, stainless lines. 11X3 finned drums reat, d100 cylenders, rabestos shoes,

Do those 76 caliper have a different bore that make the pedal a little stiffer?

adjustable prop valve inline with a76 dart combo valve for a disc/drum car.

im wondering if i should gut the combo valve too?

Should be ok if the adj valve is behind the combo valve on the line headed to the back. AndyF might know better.

also, im thinking about using a set of taller FMJ spindles, cobra rotors, and aluminum C5 vette calipers. a factory cherokee disc setup rear. what do you think?

Michael

The Dr Diff kit? I think those caliper are 2 piston floating. I'd think the ARengineering viper brembo kit is more performance that you could grow to about any level of perfromance with the car still barely streetable. I'm sure the Dr Diff kit is good. Is it a lot cheaper? That's a big factor.

What spindles do you have now?

 

[DionR]

Do those 76 caliper have a different bore that make the pedal a little stiffer?

It does seem like the later A-Body caliper was supposed to have a smaller piston. Seems like Ehrenburg like them because they made the pedal harder.

The Dr Diff kit? I think those caliper are 2 piston floating. I'd think the ARengineering viper brembo kit is more performance that you could grow to about any level of perfromance with the car still barely streetable. I'm sure the Dr Diff kit is good. Is it a lot cheaper? That's a big factor.

Dr. Diff's kit uses the 2 piston pad guide (PGC) PBR calipers off a Mustang Cobra, the C5 Vette calipers are a 2 piston pin driven (PDC) PBR caliper, similar to the Baer GT or GT-Plus kit. They are a bigger caliper, with a bigger pad. And yes, both calipers are a floating design.

I am not aware of anyone making a kit to bolt a C5 Vette caliper on a Mopar. I have been building one of my own, but not to sell. The C5 caliper seems to be a good compromise between performance and cost. They wont work well for a track car (the Vette guys go through lots of pads and rotors on track days), but it should be more than enough on a street car.

Money not object, all out car (street or track), I would jump all over Andy's 13" late Viper caliper kit, with the Baer 2 piece rotors. All the performance you could ever need, and not a downside I can think of (other than cost).

 

[dusterbd13]

ill have to look into the doctor diff stuff. havent heard of them before.

reason im looking at the vette stuff is actually because of how they hold up on track. a lot of my customers run C5 and C6 vettes, and yes they do go through a lot of rotors. they crack them from heat cycles. also, the pad wear depends on compunds. most of my TT guys run wilwood H pads. get 3/4 a season out of them, running 2-3 events a month. get about a day out of a set of rotors with those pads, though.

i have a few complete sets of vette and f-body calipers laying around, firgured id use them on the duster. pads are readily available in any compound i could wish for. ill be building my own brackets, and would love to see what other guys are doing with this, if there are other guys doing this. plans are to cut down a set of diplomat rotors to make a hub, build a plate that bolts to the spindle, and mount the caliper adapter from the vette to that plate.

on the rear, im looking at cherokee stuff because i was told it would bolt to my 8 3/4, retain the parking brakes, etc. i can get a full setup down at pull-a-part pretty cheap. is this true?

as far as my adjustments go, im close to maxed out. stock uca bushings at the moment. never made the jump to offsets. then, on the aeroduster thread, i say that ben is using speedway arms on his. waiting to see how that works out for him before i do it.

and instead of BMW seats, think subaru. my wife and i both love the seats in our legacy GT, so im going to look for a set. ill have to re-upholster them, but oh well. ill also use a center console/armrest thing outof a 97/98 dakota. keep it looking like a bench. kinda.

hope this helps.

and if anyone had seen the thread about converting to GM TBI, i could not fond a factory TBI unit to support my horesepower.

michael

 

[DionR]

As far as I know, I am the only one messing with the C5 calipers for a Mopar. Doesn't mean there isn't anyone else, but I haven't seen anything.

I am doing just as you are planning, cut some rotors down and had a plate laser cut to mount the abutment to the spindle. Only other thing I did that you didn't mention was to have the snout of the rotor/hub turned to match a Mustang hub so the Cobra rotor slips on without modification. Nice thing about that is if it is just the rotors that wear out on a track day, I can just swap the rotors without having to have some machined.

Only concern I have is that if the Vette's are having problems with the rotor cracking, I'm not sure how the Cobra one will work. The Cobra rotor is about a 1/16" thinner than the GM rotor, but a touch bigger in diameter. Being thinner might make it even more susceptible to cracking.

I'm sure you are aware of this, but the C6 calipers are bigger across the top that the C5 calipers. I'm really tight to the wheels I have, don't think I could run C6 calipers without going to an 18" wheel. Maybe your Bullet wheels have more room, don't know.

I have the plates cut, just need to do a final mockup to see if I need to shim them, and then source some brake lines.

Here are some pictures from the final mockup before I cut the steel plates. This was with a wood buck I painted black.

Note that I plan to swap the spindles side to side so I can put the calipers to the rear of the wheel. Probably not a big deal but I think it best to duplicate the original location if possible.

I wouldn't go with the Jeep rear disks, myself. You will need a custom axle that is longer to account for the thicker mounting plate and I think they are solid rotors. Might have that wrong, but that's what I am remembering. I know they aren't a bolt on for the 8.75", but they do fit a 8.25" with a minimum of effort.

I've been planning to work on using a late 80's Supra rear disk setup. I just plan to build a mounting plate that bolts the caliper in the right location and weld the plate direct to the axle tube. The e-brake is a mini-drum setup, so I was going to just build a new center for the backing plate the e-brake mounts to. This gave me the option to go to a fix caliper in the future. Plus they are a vented rotor, and the bolt pattern is a match already. The center register will need work, too. Haven't made any progress on that project, though.

 

[dusterbd13]

your swap is looking really good. what year cobra rotors are you using? and how thick are your adapters? it will gove me a good starting point for mine.

on the rotor thickness you have to think it through.

1/16th thinner is 1/32 per braking surface. marginal difference.
the cracking guys experience are from very aggresive race pads, and are more prone to happen on toght technical tracks like CMP. VIR rarely ever cracks a rotor.

i found another thread about the cherokee rear discs, and i am officially talked out of them. back to the drawing board.

thanks for all the feedback so far, guys.
hopefully this weekend ill get a little time in on her.

 

[DionR]

Rotor are for a '98 Cobra. I didn't want anything special, cross drilled or slotted or anything. Don't think I have more than $60 in the pair. If I want to step up, all I have to do is order up some Brembo rotors.

Adapters are 1/2" thick. On the one I've been mocking up, I expect to need something like a .070" shim. Couldn't get a material thickness that was closer, and I didn't want to mill some thickness off to get it right. The reality is, I probably don't need to shim it, it's not like they are rubbing the abutment, and the caliper floats anyway.

FYI, I had to get (5) adapters cut, so I have an extra set if you wanted to see if they work for you.

 

[dusterbd13]

progress update, and i figure ill start a running tally of expenses. that way, i can shake my head in disgust at how much Ive spent. or, go "cool!! i didn't spend as much as i thought i would!"

wheels and tires, total installed. (need new tires): 275
fuel pump, line, gauge, etc.: 134
intake gaskets: 18

total for this round so far: 427


took the car out for its maiden voyage tonight with the bullitts, etc. runs good with the new fuel system. runs really good. was able to get it sideways in second at 35 by just standing on it. that was after the really, really nasty bog though. gotta get the carb tuned in here soon.

there was no rubbing or anything with the new wheel and tire package. the car did not settle as much as i hoped it would, so i am definitely going to work on the stance. also, the new package made the previous ill handling nature even worse. part of that is tire pressure (didn't check until after my test drive. no two tires are the same.), part of that is the bad alignment, part of that is worn out tires. all needs rectified before putting it through its paces to see how the handling is different.

the intake still leaks. badly. so i drained the oil when i got home, pulled the air cleaner, started disconnecting stuff. tomorrow after my little girl and i get home, I'm going to get the cooling system drained and change the gaskets. I'm thinking about removing the carb spacer while its all apart, as the angle of the carb to throttle linkage bracket, and carb to return spring bracket, are severe. i don't know if i would lose torque and drivability, though. easy enough to see, right?

the family's first planned outing with the car is next weekend to the transportation museum in Spencer, NC. were going to take Mary on the old fashioned steam locomotive, and also enjoy the Plymouth clubs car show. I'm hoping to get the thing cleaned up this week, and some more work done. if i don't make it with this car, well just drive the Subaru.

look for pics Sunday. or not. depends if i get anything picture worthy done.

michael

 

[dusterbd13]

so, its been a really good day.
this morning, my little girl and i ran some errands and did some yard work. by about 11, i was able to get in the shop. started draining the radiator, disconnecting hoses, electrical, etc. the worst part about the job was the 12 point ARP manifold bolts i used. what was i thinking? had to use all sorts of odd wrenches to get the manifold bolts off and on.

a fresh set of 1213 gaskets, tube of RTV, two rolls of paper towels, and a can of carb cleaner later....

pic of the polished lifter valley, indybrock heads, and solid roller

pic of the gasket matching on the victor jr.

pic of it all back together.

cleaned it all up the best i could, but this POR 15 is really stained. when i painted the block this time, it went badly. last one i did, back in high school, never stained, chipped, discolored, etc. i think that i didint mix it properly this time, or stir it enough, or something.
one of these days i will re-do it. probably go hydraulic roller at the same time.

also, i removed the carb spacer. it actually runs much better without it. crisper throttle response, and more power.

treated it to fresh antifreeze, and 7 quarts of 15-50 synthetic mobil1.


after it was back together, my best friend came over to help and hang out. we decided to do the lowering of the car, see where the stance and wheel/tire fitment was.

to lower the rear, i purchased 1 inch aluminum blocks from autozone. 30 bucks, included u-bolts that i didnt need. we had to drill the register for the leaf spring pin a bit deeper, and file down the top locating pin some. about 1 mins worth of modifying the universal blocks. they went in with my old u-bolts, no problem. also, as a benifit, they made my rear sway bar line up better than ever before. my links are actually perpendicular to the arm now.

we turned the front t-bar adjusters 4 full turns each. this resulted at a 1 inch drop at all 4 corners.

it sits right now. also, the is a VERY small scrub over major dips in the road, but only from the right rear corner. plenty fo ground clearance for steep parking lots and speed bumps.

the lowering also had a benifit that i was not expecting. somehow, by some miracle of geometry that should not have happened, it made the car drive better. there is still no stering wheel return, but the turn in is much crisper, the cornering is much more precise, and the car is more stable and less twitchy at hihway speeds and above.

on our test drive, we pulled into the closed dodge dealer here in town to take a picture. its the best o can do right now.

next purchase will be new tires for these wheels. im looking at the federal 595's. i can get a set for 420 out the door. supposedly a pretty good tire. its actually the spec tire for the legends racers at CMS. my theory is that i dont need a super grippy tire for this car. it just doesnt need it. it needs a quiet, dependable, decent wet weather tire. the federal supposedly will do all that. if anyone has experience with the, please let me know.

thats all for now. grand total at the moment is 457.

michael

 

[DionR]

Looks much better, I like the drop.

 

[dusterbd13]

thanks!

ill get better pictures here soon.

 

[Prine]

Nice ride!!!

My 74' 360/727 Duster with buckets/console, is going Double Black, Flat Black Stripe.....dual snorkel, go wing...17's.

Love the look of yours on Bullitts'

Prine

 

[dusterbd13]

well, my daughter brought home a stomach virus that she gave to me, so I've been kind of hit and miss all week.

got my new tires, federal super steel 595. 260 tread wear, ultra-high performance summer. so far, they seem quiet and grippy. ride good (except for the front right wheel, as the rim is somewhat egg shaped). i like the tread pattern and sidewall, and at 408.12, the price was really reasonable.

pics of tires:

my boss threw me out for coming in sick today. she doesn't want her daughter to get it either, and i cant blame her. so I've been piddling in between bouts of nastiness.

cleaned up the interior for the first time in ages. no armor all, as i hate the way it makes everything greasy. just a good old fashioned damp rag.

and washed it. its funny, but i started out to wash this car a couple of months ago, and wound up starting to redo it. finally got it washed. no wax, and ill say why later.

looks pretty good so far. really cleaned up well. (haven't washed it in close to a year and a half. haven't waxed it in two or three....)

i have started on my next two steps of upgrades. brakes, and interior.

on the brakes, I'm going in stages. first is a power brake upgrade. the booster, master, and all the brackets cost me 35. pulled off a 75 valiant 4 door that i could not open any of the doors on due to being fender to fender with other cars at the yard. i ordered new stainless lines from classic tube for 40, and a new check valve for 6 from autozone. so, 81 in the power brake conversion. still have to make sure the booster is good, clean and paint the assembly. I'm thinking black for the booster and brackets, cast iron for the master body, and cast aluminum for the bolt on lid.

stage 2 is going to be 2 piston C5 vette calipers and 13 inch cobra rotors. i see no need to upgrade the rear at this time, as the 11X3 finned drums with semi-metallic shoes do wonderfully.

then comes the interior. looking first at my unfinished trunk. hoping to start sound deadening this weekend, and then starting to develop my closeout panels.

after that ill move into the interior for seats, seat belts, console, etc.


the total for this stage (not including brakes. ill add that when i get them done)
is:
865.12

I'm looking at some exterior mods now, which is why i didn't wax it. I'm thinking the full 71 340 package. stripes, scoops, rear spoiler, blackout hood, and a chin spoiler. ill have to get a photochop done for that before i decide, though.

michael

 

[Judge Mills]

Great thread! I'm hoping my car will turn out like this.... Keep up the good work!

 

[dusterbd13]

thanks!

 

[jamesdart]

im there. maiden voyage for my stree tstrip dart was a few days after 9/11. i had a lot fo fun but quit driving it for all the same reasons. im not selling it and i wasnt sure what i wanted to do with it so i started building my duster, which your wheels spacers came from. im starting to think of going to 3.54 gears and a few other changes. i just put some sunfire buckets, which were a huge improvement, in my duster and we have been using it for family weekend trips. the duster is a budget car with bullits 12" rotors, 1" t bars, 6 leaf springs and kybs. i had 3 rears in this car, bang for the buck won in the end, with an explorer 8.8. i didnt think the rear discs would make much of an improvement, i thought it stopped pretty good before, but now i swear it will put you through the windshield. pedal is a little hard, but is right there up high. i was considering putting the power booster on i have. pretty cool to see your changes.

 

[dusterbd13]

thanks, james. and thanks again for the good deal on the spacers. i really appreciate it.

and ive been debating the rear disc swap. still havent decided, but then again, im not at that stage yet.

and sunfire buckets.....got any picturs or a build tread?

michael

 

[jamesdart]

one of these days i guess im going to have to make a thread about my cars. i didnt take any pics of the seats as i wasnt sure how id like them. the size is nice for the a body and they arent all funky import racer looking. the plan is to have them covered so they sort of look like they belong. driver seat was really easy to bolt in but passenger side bracketry is totally different so it was a little harder but when you pop the lever on it, it flips foward and you slide it all the way up put the kid in and it goes back to where ever you had it set.