hangn0ut
Well-Known Member
Oh yeah. Gotta excuse the others. It is Friday night...lol.
70 up charging system upgrade question
- Thread starter 4spdragtop
- Start date
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Thanks for chiming in. Just got home, doing 12 hr shifts and back in about 7 hours. The switch is what I'm thinking as well. Relay is new, I put it in cuz everything else is new(alt, VR, ballast, ecu) all harness is in really good shape. 2 are MH repops in the engine bay, BUT they were somewhat loose in bulkhead connectors. Snugged them up and now starts in run position only. Start position it cranks but dont start. I'm off Monday so bucket seat is coming out and ac vents coming out to access the switch.
Between now and Monday hopefully have my "as built" schematic drawn up.
Thanks
Steve
Between now and Monday hopefully have my "as built" schematic drawn up.
Thanks
Steve
hangn0ut
Well-Known Member
When you cleaned up the bulkhead connections did you clean up and inspect the wire and terminal on both sides of the bulkhead? That's one way for a connect to be cleaned and reinserted and get a worse connect if the interior side is mucked up. A real pain to get at but corrosion doesn't care. And spraying cleaner from the engine side only helps where the blade slides in. Gotta check the rest of the connect. And it isn't easy. Course you can check for voltage drop before removing it. You can check for drop further along the wire where access is easier.
hangn0ut
Well-Known Member
12 hour days. That's rough. Kudos for working on the car at all.
It's a good gig, I'm not complaining, 12 hr shifts just leave no cuda time on work days or work nights lol. But it does equal more time off.
Thanks for chiming in.
Thanks for chiming in.
hangn0ut
Well-Known Member
Constant volts in start circuit with key off,yet won't start on start. Sounds backwards don't it. Sounds like crossed wires... Gotta think on this...
I'm leaning towards switch. If I'm correct whether its "start" voltage or "run" voltage, they both go thru switch. Switch and the ballast(that I can think of) are the only 2 common pieces associated with both run and start?
Thanks
Thanks
Ok got some cuda time today, pulled bucket seat and ac vents to be "comfy" under the dash. Pulled old ign switch and replaced with another one.
Heres test results
Battery static(key off) 12.33 V
1. Key off Batt +ve to ign#2(start side of ballast) 11.35V. Ballast hooked up.
2. Key off batt +ve to ign#1 (run side ) 11.61V. Ballast hooked up.
Why is there voltage at start side??
Next tests both with ballast unhooked and key in "run", engine off.
Tests at wire ends.
3. Ign 1(run)wire terminal to batt +ve 0.96V
4. Ign #2(start) to batt. +ve 11.0 V??
Why could there be voltage at Ign#2 when it's in "run"??
I have been working on my "as built" bit quite done but close. Tedious....
Thanks for input and advice.
Heres test results
Battery static(key off) 12.33 V
1. Key off Batt +ve to ign#2(start side of ballast) 11.35V. Ballast hooked up.
2. Key off batt +ve to ign#1 (run side ) 11.61V. Ballast hooked up.
Why is there voltage at start side??
Next tests both with ballast unhooked and key in "run", engine off.
Tests at wire ends.
3. Ign 1(run)wire terminal to batt +ve 0.96V
4. Ign #2(start) to batt. +ve 11.0 V??
Why could there be voltage at Ign#2 when it's in "run"??
I have been working on my "as built" bit quite done but close. Tedious....
Thanks for input and advice.
Daves69
Well-Known Member
Did you unplug the ECU when checking voltage at the disconnected ballast connectors?
How I check...…
1) Disconnect both sides of the ballast.
2) Disconnect the ECU plug.
3) Attach volt meter to Ign 2 ballast plug and ground.
Zero volts in "key off" position.
Battery voltage in "key start" position.
Zero volts in "key on" position.
4) Attach volt meter to Ign 1 ballast plug and ground.
Zero volts in "key off" position.
Zero volts in "key start" position.
Battery voltage in "key on" position.
How I see the system working.
Start circuit acts as a "hot" wire giving full battery to the positive side of the coil and "hotter" spark to the plugs on key start.
Run circuit is battery power reduced through the ballast resistor to not cause the coil overheat as it runs.
So tests above got me thinking the switch is supplying voltage when it shouldn't.
I left everything hooked up and removed key switch.
1. 12.12V red battery wire at key switch to gnd.
2. Brown wire(feeds ballast) at key switch to gnd. 0.1mV.
Both good right?
Tests on switch itself with it removed.
3. No continuity with key off from "batt" on switch to all other terminals. Good??
4. Key switch "run", "batt" to "IGN1" continuity.
5. Key switch "run", "batt" to "IGN2" NO continuity.
Tests 4 and 5 seem good right??
6. Key "start", "batt" to "ign1" NO continuity.
7. Key "start" "batt" to "IGN2" continuity.
Tests 6 and 7 seem good too.
I'm stumped to say the least...
I left everything hooked up and removed key switch.
1. 12.12V red battery wire at key switch to gnd.
2. Brown wire(feeds ballast) at key switch to gnd. 0.1mV.
Both good right?
Tests on switch itself with it removed.
3. No continuity with key off from "batt" on switch to all other terminals. Good??
4. Key switch "run", "batt" to "IGN1" continuity.
5. Key switch "run", "batt" to "IGN2" NO continuity.
Tests 4 and 5 seem good right??
6. Key "start", "batt" to "ign1" NO continuity.
7. Key "start" "batt" to "IGN2" continuity.
Tests 6 and 7 seem good too.
I'm stumped to say the least...
Gimme a few minutes Dave lemme redo those checks/tests. Ecu was hooked up.
Ok redid tests. Ballast and ecu unhooked.
1. Key off, IGN2 to gnd, 0 volts. Good.
2. Same test in "start" 10 Volts??(2v drop?)
3. Same test, key "on" 0 volts. Good.
Now changed to ign 1 side(run) of ballast.
4. Key off 0 volts. Good
5. Key "start" 1.5mV
6. Key "On" 10.98 volts. A drop of 1 volt??
1. Key off, IGN2 to gnd, 0 volts. Good.
2. Same test in "start" 10 Volts??(2v drop?)
3. Same test, key "on" 0 volts. Good.
Now changed to ign 1 side(run) of ballast.
4. Key off 0 volts. Good
5. Key "start" 1.5mV
6. Key "On" 10.98 volts. A drop of 1 volt??
Thanks Dave.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
^^Steve is all wiring connected with above tests?^^
2,........ign2, 10V.......This is likely OK depending on condition of battery. This is why I measure these from this point TO THE battery PLUS so that you see the drop, and the battery voltage becomes unimportant. EG........if your battery is low, and cranking the battery is only 10.5V, then this 10V reading is just fine
5. Key "start" 1.5mV.................if you disconnected something, this is likely OK, as IGN1 goes dead when cranking. With wiring properly connected, this will show some backfeed through the resistor from the IGN2 start voltage. I would expect a fairly low reading, perhaps a volt or two.
6. Key "On" 10.98 volts. A drop of 1 volt?? If your battery is fully charged THIS IS WAY LOW. I thought I told you this earlier. You seem to have the common drop in the ignition harness. "Chase" this back through the path to the battery..............bulkhead connector............ammeter............switch connector........switch itself.
2,........ign2, 10V.......This is likely OK depending on condition of battery. This is why I measure these from this point TO THE battery PLUS so that you see the drop, and the battery voltage becomes unimportant. EG........if your battery is low, and cranking the battery is only 10.5V, then this 10V reading is just fine
5. Key "start" 1.5mV.................if you disconnected something, this is likely OK, as IGN1 goes dead when cranking. With wiring properly connected, this will show some backfeed through the resistor from the IGN2 start voltage. I would expect a fairly low reading, perhaps a volt or two.
6. Key "On" 10.98 volts. A drop of 1 volt?? If your battery is fully charged THIS IS WAY LOW. I thought I told you this earlier. You seem to have the common drop in the ignition harness. "Chase" this back through the path to the battery..............bulkhead connector............ammeter............switch connector........switch itself.
Hey Del, gimme a few to read and saturate what you are saying. I will say that all the test results were with ballast and ecu unhooked as Dave mentioned.
I'll redo tests in a bit.
Here are pics of ign switch connector. There's a slight "chip" where the red wire connects into it.(grey connector).
I have another connector(black) that has same orientation and has clips to help hold it on. This appears to be a better design?
I'll redo tests in a bit.
Here are pics of ign switch connector. There's a slight "chip" where the red wire connects into it.(grey connector).
I have another connector(black) that has same orientation and has clips to help hold it on. This appears to be a better design?
dartfreak75
Restore it, Dont part it!
That is a beautiful car very clean. Blows my mind how clean that engine bay is.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
If the black one is in good shape and fits the switch the fact that it has a retainer is "some points." But really that should not affect electrical.
Since you have the ign switch right there I'd check right there for drop
If it's easier to understand, "rig" an extension wire to the battery NEG. With the key in "run" and again in "start" check the following::
The backside of the connector check battery coming in with key in "run." If this is close to battery, it is OK. If it is low, you have a drop between there and the battery, IE the RED wire in the bulkhead, or the ammeter
Next check the "run" (BLUE) and see how it compares to the battery coming in. If it is quite low at the BLUE compared to the battery supply, then you have a drop right there in the connector or switch
Same thing with IGN2. Again, make these checks with wiring all hooked up ready to run. You can ground the coil high tension for safety if you feel the need.
Since you have the ign switch right there I'd check right there for drop
If it's easier to understand, "rig" an extension wire to the battery NEG. With the key in "run" and again in "start" check the following::
The backside of the connector check battery coming in with key in "run." If this is close to battery, it is OK. If it is low, you have a drop between there and the battery, IE the RED wire in the bulkhead, or the ammeter
Next check the "run" (BLUE) and see how it compares to the battery coming in. If it is quite low at the BLUE compared to the battery supply, then you have a drop right there in the connector or switch
Same thing with IGN2. Again, make these checks with wiring all hooked up ready to run. You can ground the coil high tension for safety if you feel the need.
Birthday shopping for 4yr old granddaughter Lennon done, lol.
Hooked everything back up, rigged a lead to batt -ve and to "batt" on back of switch.
Key "on" 11.18 V
Key "start " 10.2 v
Battery static is 12.20 V.
Ampmeter bypassed(MAD)
Thanks Del. More tests coming.
Hooked everything back up, rigged a lead to batt -ve and to "batt" on back of switch.
Key "on" 11.18 V
Key "start " 10.2 v
Battery static is 12.20 V.
Ampmeter bypassed(MAD)
Thanks Del. More tests coming.
I've drawn out some of the wiring. If I understand you correct, there is a drop in the red wire(5 o'clock on drawing) thru to splice and associated switches? I circled the suspect area in drawing.
Ok pulled red"batt" wire out of connector. Here is where it leads to...one of the infamous splices. 5 wires(1red batt, 1 red/white tracer, 3 black( hl switch, 1 to P in bulkhead and other WAS to ammeter(bypassed)...down the rabbit hole lol
Wires are pretty brittle I wonder how deep I gotta go to replace all the switch wires....
Splice circles in hm drawing and in factory schematic.
Wires are pretty brittle I wonder how deep I gotta go to replace all the switch wires....
Splice circles in hm drawing and in factory schematic.
Dilemma... I still haven't narrowed down the culprit but it's looking like the wires at both of the splices should be replaced. Splice is actually solid. Wires brittle/stiff but no melting. I have another connector that I could "prewire", but not it DOES NOT look to be safe soldering under the dash.
Each splice has 5 wires, so very difficult. Suggestions ?
Here is a pic of splices in a spare harness I have(for visual effect lol)
Each splice has 5 wires, so very difficult. Suggestions ?
Here is a pic of splices in a spare harness I have(for visual effect lol)
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Well you may be off track. What are the two voltages reading with key in run compared........blue "run" and the red coming INTO the switch? That will tell you if the drop is in the switch/ or connector, or whether the drop is upstream in the red? I'm missing that somehow. If those splices are "solid" whether they look bad or not may not be the trouble.
How does the "big red" (battery feed) get through the bulkhead? Is it still "the connector" or drilled through and wire straight through?
How does the "big red" (battery feed) get through the bulkhead? Is it still "the connector" or drilled through and wire straight through?
Del I only got to test batt -ve to "batt" on switch with everything hooked up.
Results are in quotes below.
Once I thought I found drop in red wire, I started tracing both it and the big black wires back to splices. I stopped there. Good news is I haven't cut/changed anything. I can tape/protect to run more tests. Sucks I'm doing this outside as it limits time.
Thanks Del, it's much appreciated.
Results in quotes
Results are in quotes below.
Once I thought I found drop in red wire, I started tracing both it and the big black wires back to splices. I stopped there. Good news is I haven't cut/changed anything. I can tape/protect to run more tests. Sucks I'm doing this outside as it limits time.
Thanks Del, it's much appreciated.
Results in quotes
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Battery static is 12.20 V.
IF "IF" you are measuring this AT the igntion switch IE the battery wire going to the switch, AND WITH the key in the "run" position, then the switch or the connector is your drop, or at least a whole big bag of it
To fully test this, round up a couple of male spade/ flag terminals and make a short jumper wire with no14 or so. Disconnect the switch, and jumper the switch connector from the red batt to the blue. Go out to the ballast and see if things improve
IF "IF" you are measuring this AT the igntion switch IE the battery wire going to the switch, AND WITH the key in the "run" position, then the switch or the connector is your drop, or at least a whole big bag of it
To fully test this, round up a couple of male spade/ flag terminals and make a short jumper wire with no14 or so. Disconnect the switch, and jumper the switch connector from the red batt to the blue. Go out to the ballast and see if things improve
I measured battery static direct at battery posts.
"Run" was measured at batt -ve post and the red battery connection at switch.(I weasled the lead in there). Everything hooked up.
Good idea with jumper wire.
Sorry but now with jumper in switch, what/how am I measuring at ballast?
I also have another ign switch too.
Thanks Del.
"Run" was measured at batt -ve post and the red battery connection at switch.(I weasled the lead in there). Everything hooked up.
Good idea with jumper wire.
Sorry but now with jumper in switch, what/how am I measuring at ballast?
I also have another ign switch too.
Thanks Del.
With 70+ VR the mount holes aren't the same. I really didnt want to drill new holes on firewall. I made a bracket out of aluminum. Installed for the interim for more tests. Still scratching my head.
Got the idea for bracket from @fishy68
ThankTracy!
Continuity at all grounds, even with battery unhooked?
So jumped the ign switch terminal, at the red batt and blue wires. Both at switch terminal.
Battery static 12.40V
Results
Ign2 to ground 6.16V
Ign1 to ground 10.45V.
Does this mean a 2V drop in ign1 circuit?
Thanks
Got the idea for bracket from @fishy68
ThankTracy!
Continuity at all grounds, even with battery unhooked?
So jumped the ign switch terminal, at the red batt and blue wires. Both at switch terminal.
Battery static 12.40V
Results
Ign2 to ground 6.16V
Ign1 to ground 10.45V.
Does this mean a 2V drop in ign1 circuit?
Thanks
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