72 Dart Swinger 3.6L Pentastar +T5

Discussion in 'Members Restorations' started by myduster360, Oct 2, 2016.

  1. myduster360

    myduster360 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    I picked up this Swinger(318/auto) roller a few months ago down in Southern Mo.
    It was exactly what I was looking for. New 1/4 panels, floors and paint & ready to be reassembled the way I wanted. Plus at just $2500 I couldn't pass it up

    The interior is bare but I have most all the pieces as well as a console. All of it is unfortunately Green. I'll be switching it all over to Black.

    So my initial choice for a drivetrain was a 5.7 Hemi and TKO. But more and more I started to lean toward something different. More info on that will be posted soon enough.

    20160410_125452[1].jpg

    After a little clean up, she's looking pretty good. Several little chips and scratches but overall decent enough for now.
    20160723_165806 (1).jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
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    • myduster360

      myduster360 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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      The goals for the car is to be a driver but as a frequent Autocrosser, the thing has to handle.
      So to that end, moving the weight distribution back by taking as much weight off the front of the car was a priority.

      As the title suggest, I'm wanting to go with a new 3.6L Pentastar V6.
      Believe it or not, pulling the shell back through the hills of Southern MO, our 3.6L in our Caravan got ~18mpg and didn't even break a sweat, lol.

      Pros:
      1. It's different. 3G Hemi swap have been done to death
      2. 1/2 the Weight of a iron small block.(2011-2014 are ~330lb, +2015 ~325lb)
      3. 5,000,000 produced as of 2015, so they're more than plentiful.
      4. 11" Shorter than a V8--shifting its lighter weight off the front axle for even better weight distribution.
      5. 300hp at the crank Stock is certainly respectable.
      6. FLAT Torque Curve. It makes +250ft-lb from way down at 1800rpm all the way through 5400rpm
      7. Flex Fuel and Port injection allows some flexibility in the fuel system while avoiding the complication of Direct Injection when adding Boost.
      I picked up this 2013 3.6L out of a Wrangler. It had everything included with it except that auto trans shown. It had the alternator, A/C, PS, PCM, Engine AND Body Wiring, even the A/C and Radiator Hoses. In retrospect, I should have grabbed the Bellhousing off that auto trans but more on that later.
      2013 Pentastar.jpg
       
      Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
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      • myduster360

        myduster360 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        3.6L Pentastar Transmission Options

        I had a hard time finding info about what actually bolts to a 3.6L so I figured I'd consolidate all I've found out so far.

        First off the Bellhousing bolt pattern is not even close to a 3GHemi/Small Block, not by a long shot. This Autocad drawing I made shows differences. The 3.6L in GREEN and the LA SB bolt pattern in White

        3.6 vs 360.JPG

        The 3.6 Pentastar Bellhousing most closely resembles the 2000 and newer Aluminum Block 3.5 and 4.0L SOHC[see below]. I haven't 100% confirmed it, but the resemblance is there as seen by the unique pair of bolt holes near the top of the bell.

        upload_2016-10-3_13-37-54.png


        AUTOMATICS
        The most obvious choice for a RWD swap would be to use a NAG1 from a +2012 Wrangler. The NAG1 swap has been done more than a few times when mated to a Hemi so it has more R&D to support it as opposed to the newer 8 & 9 Speeds.

        Wranglers are most all 4WD so you don't need the whole transmission JUST the bellhousing. I've come to find out that a popular swap for your brand new +$37K Jeep is to spend another $15K-$20K to install a Hemi & pitch the 3.6L [Jeep guys are crazy]. They do this by simply SWAPPING THE BELL HOUSING from a LX Hemi NAG1 onto the Wrangler's 4WD NAG1. So 3.6L NAG1 Bellhousings are actually readily available as "new" take-off. Take-offs like this one shown below go for about $75 to $125 all day.

        Again, the 3.5L Trans from 06-10 LX MIGHT bolt the 3.6L but might not. They used a "weaker" 42RLE 4 speed anyway so the 5 speed NAG1 would be a better choice imo. Just take a Hemi NAG1 and bolt on the Wrangler 3.6L Bellhousing.
        upload_2016-10-2_20-23-4.png


        MANUAL Trans

        Big issue here is there's only 1 OE option but its not a good one. The ONLY manual trans to bolt behind a 3.6L was a NSG370 6-Speed but ONLY 4WD as far as I've found. Novak has decent info on it.
        CONS: 3.6 versions Harder to find[$$], Poor Gearing, Big Boned, Shifter position less than ideal, Goofy Driveshaft, Integral Bellhousing that is part of the Case.
        PROS: Bolt on

        Here's the NSG370 Gear Ratios 1st-6th

        4.46 2.61 1.72 1.25 1.00 0.79
        Not the best spread especially that 1st gear,,good for Rock Crawling but maybe not much else.

        Jeeps used the NSG370 since 05 and if/when there was a rare occasion for a RWD, they just used the same darn 4WD trans but instead of bolting on a transfer case, they used this Goofy CV type driveshaft. Slick idea and I love the CV and damper but that doesnt make it easy to find or cheap. That shaft is ~$500 new and then you probably still have to cut it.
        74e852d455e672314d3c4ea31c27bfb8.jpg

        Tremec TKO and T5
        A TKO500/600 seems like a decent route. Everything from the Trans back has been already figured out so it's a welcome relief from the R&D and fabrication associated with this swap.

        QuickTime now makes a Bellhousing to mount a TKO500/600 + Hydraulic TB behind a 3.6L. Thank Shannon at Redline Gauge Works for that[he's doing the same swap]. Part number is RM-4070 msrp $1132

        Here it is on a trial fit

        Pros: Easy TKO bolt-on
        Cons: Cost, Weight, ONLY GM TKO, ONLY Hydraulic TB
        20160723_171312.jpg

        T5
        This is my choice for now. Its 1/2 the weight(80lb) of the TKO(160lb), widespread availability, upgrades, and plenty strong. I picked up a Ford Racing Z-spec version a few months ago at a very reasonably price.

        Gear Ratios 1st-5th
        2.95, 1.94, 1.34, 1.00, .63

        The big issue I have is that the QuickTime bellhousing is TKO ONLY. While most other QT bells are cut for both TKO & T5 trans, the RM4070 for the 3.6L is only made fora GM TKO. Getting a Custom bell from QT would cost an additional $450 on top of the $1099. That was a bit too much for my budget. But I think I found a possible 2nd option.

        Since I was going for light weight, the rather hefty QT Bell wasn't optimal but was the only game in town. Also, my T5 would have been a no go or I'd have to spend a couple grand for a TKO. So i took another look at the ONLY other "Bellhousing" on the planet for a 3.6L,,,,,the NAG1 auto

        The Jeep NAG1 auto bell is Aluminum, so its very light. Its also readily available and barely $100. So the way I see it, I can put a few hundred dollars in it machining it to bolt on the T5 and still be far ahead in terms of Cost.

        There are also
        numerous "T5 adapter plates" sold to bolt a T5 on to nearly anything. So mounting plates of various thicknesses and offset are available right off the shelf. This means I just need to find the right plate and then get the NAG1 bell cut for the T5 Bearing retainer and 4 mounting bolts. Seems easy enough

        I found a "new take off" Bell for just $70 and it's on its way. I'll get it measured to see where the T5 needs to be to properly spaced from the engine.

        upload_2016-10-2_21-51-17.png

        upload_2016-10-2_21-50-25.png
         
        Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
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        • myduster360

          myduster360 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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          Suspension and Brakes
           
          Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
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          • 65 Dartman

            65 Dartman FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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            That 3.6 is a nice motor with a pretty flat torque curve. Had one in a 2012 van and got one in a 2013 Challenger. Great little motor!
             
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            • abodyjoe

              abodyjoe Well-Known Member

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              looks like a good deal at $2500
               
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              • sport74

                sport74 Well-Known Member

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                I was just wondering if this had been done just the other day.....
                 
              • myduster360

                myduster360 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                updated the post above with some trans info
                 
              • replicaracer43

                replicaracer43 Old school member

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                Pretty interesting, especially from a nose weight/handling perspective....
                 
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                • 72WhiteDemon

                  72WhiteDemon Mopar Or No Car!!!

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                  What stopped you from going 3.6/8sp, like out of a 2011-up LX?
                   
                • myduster360

                  myduster360 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                  Well first off, I autocross, so its got to be a manual,,lol

                  The ZF 8 speed is Big, Heavy, Expensive and Complicated. Pretty much everything the little T5 isn't. The 8 Speed is at least ~200lb not counting fluid cooler and cooler lines. It has a very large diameter with almost no "tail shaft" so there would need to be major surgery to the floor pan to fit. Its electronics gets even more complicated. I have no idea what it may or may not need on the CAN bus before it would even attempt to shift. Would the trans insist on all 4 wheel sensors? ABS module? Shift indicator? Shift lever? There's just too many unknowns.
                   
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                  • 72WhiteDemon

                    72WhiteDemon Mopar Or No Car!!!

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                    I don't think the 845RE is over 200. But I am not knocking the T5, just curious. ran several in my old Fox Body days. CAN is not a big of a mystery as people make it out to be, as long as it is not shorted or grounded. The only thing you would even have on the network would be the PDC, PCM, and TCM. STAR connectors make it pretty easy to plug up. ABS would be simply taken off, and programmed out. 8 speed is shifted by wire, so you could easily mount the ESIM (Electronic Shifter) any place really. WSS input is only needed from one source, since you are not running ABS, and I know there are kits out there Trans control module is in the Valve Body, so there is nothing to wire up externally. The trans tunnel is a valid concern, as it is quite small on the A-Body's. I'm not even sure the T5 will fit without modifications, and I know the TKO600 wont. I'm sure an 8 speed swap is not as simple as I made it sound, but it isn't a bib mystery, either. I will not be doing it to my Demon, because it an original 340 car, and I decided to keep it that way. But I really like and respect your "Dare to be different" attitude, and the car will be a hoot to drive, and MPG will be awesome too. If you need more power, you can hemi upgrade later, or slap a blower on it :)
                     
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                    • Johnny Mac

                      Johnny Mac www.blueprintengines.com FABO Vendor

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                      Subscribed!
                       
                    • 4.7Light

                      4.7Light Well-Known Member

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                      Terms of more power he can slap on a rippmods super charger made for that Jeep 3.6L with the harness and all Jeep complete it would fit under hood most likely with ease. link attached and we have one in our Jeep lots of fun! :D

                      2012-2014 Jeep Wrangler Supercharger System
                       
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                      • myduster360

                        myduster360 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                        Well according to the Googles, the ZF weighs ~90Kg = 200lb. not sure if that includes the TC or but it doesnt matter, it's built like a 55gal drum and typically over $2K. All deal breakers.
                        Yeah I don't think it's at all a simple thing to give that trans all the info it needs to shift. I was pretty sure the speed signal got sent from the ABS/Stability/TC module and not directly from the wheel sensors.

                        Regardless, I already have one science project on my plate just getting the 3.6L to stay running(bypass Security) as well as the electronic pedal/throttle to work well without the vehicle speed input. I really don't need to make this job any harder than it is. Furthermore, more than 5 or 6 speeds is mostly just for boosting MPG anyway, so I would never put too much effort into it. So as of today, the T5 manual is path im taking.
                         
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                        • myduster360

                          myduster360 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                          Thats already in the plan,,lol
                          Phase 1 was get the 3.6L installed as is naturally aspirated. 300hp will do for a while at least.
                          Phase 2 Add a couple Ford EcoBoost 3.5L turbos or GM 3.6L turbos, intercooler, E85 ect.
                          upload_2016-10-3_11-58-46.png

                          There are plenty of JK 3.6L running around right now with 375-400whp with a single turbo or Supercharger. That's Wheel Hp is through an auto trans, transfer case and 2 axles, so ~25-30% drivetrain loss. Crank Hp is probably closer to ~475hp. I'll take that. lol
                           
                          Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
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                          • myduster360

                            myduster360 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                            Just for future reference and I haven't messed with one ever,,, but it looks like HotWire believes all these pieces are needed to get the NAG1 to shift. So I'd imagine the ZF 8-speed would need a similar collection of components on the CAN bus to function, ABS module and the FCM CAN hub included.
                            http://www.hotwireauto.com/files/Install_5.7L_Hemi_Nag-1_Hotrod.pdf


                            upload_2016-10-5_11-18-20.png
                             
                            Last edited: Oct 5, 2016
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                            • myduster360

                              myduster360 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                              Since we're on the subject of CAN bus issues and turning stuff off, Here's some interesting tidbits i found.

                              RPM Extreme out of Alabama can reprogram the Jeep TIPM(Totally Integrated Power Module) for various options that may help in a Swap like this:
                              1. STARTER OVERRUN LS SWAP
                                When doing a LS swap it is sometime necessary to turn off the TIP start option to keep the starter from staying engaged for too long.
                                We are able to go into the TIPM and turn the option off. After this is performed the starter will only run while the key is in the “start" position and will stop when the key is released.

                              2. ABS REMOVAL
                                We can remove the ABS option for rigs that have had the ABS unit removed. This will remove the ABS light from the dash.
                              Also according to this post on HP Tuners site, in the Tune if you "set the displacement in ENGINE>General tab to 0.00, it will shut off all ESP and ABS."

                              I have HPT and Diablo CMR so I have a couple options for tuning but neither mess with the TIPM as far as I know.
                              I sent my 2013 Jeep PCM to my contacts at DiabloSport and they were kind enough to wipe the "Security" off it. I didn't get a full explanation what that meant and how it might adversely affect any other component on the CAN bus so we'll have to see.
                               
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                              • myduster360

                                myduster360 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                                Looks like RPM Extreme commented on that Hp Tuners thread. Seems 2011 and older stuff is a little less complicated than 2012 and newer models.
                                I may have to contact them. Id like as many functions as possible to work and most go through this TIPM module, such as cooling fans, A/C clutch, starter and pump relays, Electronic throttle/pedal, MPH ,,maybe even add Cruise and a Start Button?!?

                                upload_2016-10-5_13-25-38.png
                                 
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                                • 72WhiteDemon

                                  72WhiteDemon Mopar Or No Car!!!

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                                  NAG1 and 8 speed are completely different pieces, NAG is more sensitive to WSS, and one tire being more than 1/8" off can throw gear ratio error codes (P0731, for example), and gear swaps are also harder. 2011 and older used the 42rle trans, that's the difference there. CAN is communication, not directly related to security. It's basically a twisted pair of wires with a termination resistance either in the module or STAR connector on later models. The TIPM can give you control over some of the things you want to do, all it is, is a smart fuse box, later Powernet vehicles use a PDC, for your purposes it isn't that much different. Any RWD 3.6/ 8sp L-Car, Ram, or WK/WD could be a donor vehicle for potential swap. I'm totally cool with your direction, it's going to be awesome and different I think. Maybe one day when I get my kids through college i'll have to break down and do this swap on something :)
                                   
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                                  • BigBlockMopar28

                                    BigBlockMopar28 Well-Known Member

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                                    Gonna drop a follow. Not a huge fan of the v6's but it's unique and looks to have its benefits.
                                     
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                                    • Grnfsh

                                      Grnfsh Member

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                                      Following along for a similar future build. I'm glad I'm not the first one to try it.
                                       
                                    • Grnfsh

                                      Grnfsh Member

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                                      I think people poopoo it because its a V6, but the power output is greater than most v8's from the 80's and 90's not to mention the weight savings. Less weight = more power. And as you stated earlier everyone and their brother is doing a hemi swap. Many of them are fairly stock only putting out 360-400hp. A forced induction 3.6 will meet or beat that easily.
                                       
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                                      • myduster360

                                        myduster360 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                                        I was curious to see how the 3.6L Torque and Hp curves compared to common 340/360. I couldn't find a decent factory dyno curve of an old combo but the factory used a different SAE test standard back then anyway, so I replotted a 1999 5.9l Magnum.

                                        Stock for Stock, the Pentastar loses out between 1500-4000rpm but kicks in after 4k and pulls hard to its peak Hp at ~6500rpm.
                                        At 5000rpm, the little 3.6L is up a whopping 150ft-lb and 20hp over the 360!
                                        By 6000rpm the Pentastar hits its peak Hp but the 360 went home early.

                                        4.56 rear end should help out the low speed torque and keep the revs in the power band, while the .63 over drive will turn those rear gears into a cruise friendly 2.87,,,

                                        upload_2016-10-24_16-37-47.png
                                         
                                        Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
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                                        • 03JeepJeep

                                          03JeepJeep It's a hoot!

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                                          Awesome build and a super cool idea
                                           
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