73' duster wont start after dropping steering column

[CrazyBlaize]

Hey guys, this is my first post, so I apologize if it's not up to the usual standard, and for my rambling, I'm just tryna make sure you guys got all the details, you can skip to where I say "HERES MY QUESTIONS" if you'd like. I got my 1973 Plymouth duster (318, auto, HVAC) at the beginning of lockdown, and it has been a blast, girls dig it, old dudes at home depot love it, and it always starts an awesome convo, but recently my wiring has been down the drain, one night on a midnight Cruze back from downtown, pretty much all electrical systems, other than my ignition, completely shut off, no stereo, so gauges, no headlights, nothing. scary I know, first inclination is to test the alternator, so the next day I start her up and everything works again, but as soon as I give 'er some gas? back to nothing, so I drive to AutoZone and have them check my alternator, they say the voltage regulator is toast, not knowing that older cars have the voltage regulator separate from the alternator, I swap in a new alternator, and BAM! shes going good again, I drive her to turkey run in Daytona and back (total of 5 hours of driving) and drove her on the weekends no problem, but then car show season ended and she's back under covers, so this season I get her back out, and nothing working again, but I noticed my amp meter on the dash is maxed out when all my electronics are dead, and then, smoke, and the worst part is, I'm on the highway, 30 mins from home, so I get off at the next exit and take out my aftermarket stereo, and she's hot enough to cook an egg. after that horrible situation, none of my gauges work, period. and its a day before another show, so I read from a post here that I gotta check the voltage regulator, so I pick one up and all that jazz looks good now, but the gauges arent working still, not even working at idle like before, drop the steering column to take the instrument cluster out, I take the 3 bolts out and she drops just enough to get the instrument cluster out, I clean and test everything and it all looks good, so I slap everything back together, and nothing, no starter, no accessories, nothing.
After a bit of learning from older posts and 7-year-old youtube videos, I learned how to get the starter going, but that's just jumping the starter, where does everything else fall into place?
HERE MY QUESTIONS:
1:after dropping the steering column is there some ground wire or something that im forgetting to put back into place?
2:could that faulty voltage regulator have led to my instrument problems?
3:I was already quite adamant on making a pushbutton style ignition system, could routing new wire to something like that (and bypassing most of the factory in-cabin wiring) fix my issues?
4:could dropping the steering column cause the neutral safety switch to stop my car from starting?
sorry for the super long post, I'm quite new to this stuff and don't really have many mopar people around me other than my old man, and he's know just as much as I do (nothing)

Thanks again,
Blaize.

 

[72bluNblu]

Welcome!

1. Yes, there's supposed to be a ground wire/strap that goes from the column to the steering column mount under the dash
2. Yes, running around with a faulty voltage regulator and a brand new alternator could have fried any amount of wiring you can think of, from a couple things to the whole smash. You could have put a lot more power through the harness than it could use if your voltage regulator wasn't working properly. If it hasn't been converted, you have an ammeter in your dash. Nearly all the power coming out of the alternator runs into the ammeter, which is in your gauge panel. If there was smoke coming from anywhere under the dash, there's a good chance it was from the ammeter or the bulkhead connector wires feeding it
3. Your wire harness is at least 49 years old. Scabbing in and bypassing old wiring with new wiring is more likely to complicate matters than it is to fix them. Sounds like you already have aftermarket stuff scabbed in (aftermarket radio), which of course can also cause issues if it wasn't done well
4. Possibly, if you kicked it loose somewhere in the process of dropping dash. But I would say it's probably more likely you melted your ammeter or its wiring into oblivion

Go here and download the factory service manuals for your car. They will include a complete wiring diagram Service Manuals – MyMopar

Take a look at this diagram from MAD electrical. It shows the basic charging circuit and source of power for the harness, which can get a little lost in the FSM diagram. It is overly simplified (notice, no voltage regulator drawn in)
Catalog

MAD also has an ammeter bypass method all drawn up. It is not without its own issues, but if you ammeter has gone nuclear it may get you back on the road

Strongly consider installing a new wire harness. I just did this myself in my '74. Like most of these old girls mine had a few modifications to the factory harness- electric fans, A/F gauge, aftermarket stereo, ammeter bypass, etc. Some was done well, like my fans, with relays etc. Some wasn't great, live and learn. I had a horn relay go bad, and I mean Chernobyl. I took care of that relay, but from that point on had issues. After I tore the whole harness out to replace it, I found wires that had overheated all through the harness. Some was definitely from the horn relay going south, some from who knows what (or when!). But more than enough to cause all kinds of gremlins, which I was having.

It also sounds like you want to make some significant changes to the wiring (push button start, for example). Your best bet for that would be starting with a new harness intended to do that, rather than scabbing it into an old one that's already seen 50 years of abuse and doesn't have the provisions you want.

And you may also want to talk to this guy, @67Dart273, or @crackedback . Both are electrical guru's in my book, and I'm sure they'll have some ideas of where you went wrong and what the best, step-by-step plan is to troubleshoot it.

Good luck!

 

[Oldmanmopar]

The most common problem with dropping the column no start issues is linkage. Make sure your linkage is adjusted properly. Move the shifter in and out of neutral in each direction while trying to start. Neutral safety does not come into the cars dash. It goes from the trans to the starter relay. Brown wire. Unplug the brown wire from the starter relay and ground that terminal from the relay to the body or battery. This eliminates the neutral safety for a test. WARNING it will start in gear when this is done.

 

[Mattax]

but I noticed my amp meter on the dash is maxed out

This is like driving with a red warning light on. Maxed out in either direction (charge or discharge) is 40 amps or more. Anything over 30 amps is going ot start to heat up connections and other weak points.
MAD is very popular to repost but has lots of problems and bad info as well.
The ammeter only indicates whether power is flowing in or out of the battery.
Other than starting, the car normally draws power from the alternator which is producing power around 14 Volts.
Power does not flow through the ammeter after the battery is recharged, unless you have wired additional equipment to the battery side of the ammeter.

The basic standard power scheme looks like this. The main splice (solid circle) joins the two power supplies (battery and alternator) to the other main circuits.

There were variations on this for heavy duty fleet and rear window defrost grid equiped cars.

Switched 'Accessory' goes to wiper switch, as well as the fusebox.
The fusebox itself has an always hot buss, and a switched buss.

1:after dropping the steering column is there some ground wire or something that im forgetting to put back into place?

Column's with a lamp and IIRC the horn switch need to ground. My '67 simply has a jumper type ground from the column bolts to the metal dash.
Tip. Chrysler uses Black for hot wires, not just ground wires.

2:could that faulty voltage regulator have led to my instrument problems?

Not likely but possible.
Instrument lights have a 2 or 3 amps fuse. Instruments themselves have their own regulator.
Either could have been damaged by a high (uncontrolled) voltage supply.
Ever see what happens when a lamp gets power at a high or lower voltage ? The lamp burns brighter or dimmer.
When a device like a lamp gets power at a higher voltage, it draws more current, gets brighter and hotter and will burn out sooner. At high enough voltage, they will burn out nearly instantly.
If your ammeter was pegged toward charge, then maybe thats what happened.
If your ammeter was pegged toward discharge, then that couldn't have happened. The battery can only supply power around 12.8 V at best. (unless the car's main wiring has been messed with such that the ammeter isn't showing battery discharge and charge)

3:I was already quite adamant on making a pushbutton style ignition system, could routing new wire to something like that (and bypassing most of the factory in-cabin wiring) fix my issues?

Doubt it. Find the problem. The stereo got hot for a reason. The ammeter maxed out for a reason. If you want to do your own custom wiring, begin by understanding what is there (factory) and having the basic tools and troubleshooting down. You'll want to be familiar with loads, wiring, and how to make good connections.

4:could dropping the steering column cause the neutral safety switch to stop my car from starting?

OMM answered that.

 

[CrazyBlaize]

Thank you for all the fast replies and know how, as soon as I get home from work today I’ll test out everything, probably starting with the neutral safety switch and ground strap on the column.
Spent a lot of time last night checking the continuity of every plug (as seen in the picture) just to make sure There wasn’t any faults in the connections.
Thanks again!

 

[Mattax]

Alternator and regulator. See here, esp post 5

I learned how to get the starter going, but that's just jumping the starter, where does everything else fall into place?

An explanation of the starter relay and starting here

The yellow wire (S) and the brown (J3) are not actually connected together in the key switch. They get connected to the power feed in the key switch only when the key is in start. In other words you can't back feed the J3 when jumping the starter relay. To get power to the ignition the key must be in run or start positions.

 

[67Dart273]

What likely happened with the "new" alternator is a sad but "popular" tale. CHECK WITH A MULTIMETER at the two small "push on" terminals which are the alternator field. The field circuit amounts to a simple electromagnet. NEITHER of those two should show continuity to ground. It may well be (It's happened!!) that the one field terminal is GROUNDED which should not be. This causes the "new" alternator to go to full output regardless of regulator.

The starting proplem, as detailed by OldManMopar, is likely linkage adjustment RE: the neutral safety switch.

If you have not done so, wander over to MyMopar and download a free 73 service manual (2 volumes) which got there because of a few guys right here.

 

[CrazyBlaize]

CHECK WITH A MULTIMETER at the two small "push on" terminals which are the alternator field. The field circuit amounts to a simple electromagnet. NEITHER of those two should show continuity to ground. It may well be (It's happened!!) that the one field terminal is GROUNDED which should not be. This causes the "new" alternator to go to full output regardless of regulator.

just got home and broke the MULTIMETER, the Green and Blue wires shown in the picture BOTH have continuity with ground. Is this what you where referring too? And what can I do about it?

 

[CrazyBlaize]

Welcome!

1. Yes, there's supposed to be a ground wire/strap that goes from the column to the steering column mount under the dash
2. Yes, running around with a faulty voltage regulator and a brand new alternator could have fried any amount of wiring you can think of, from a couple things to the whole smash. You could have put a lot more power through the harness than it could use if your voltage regulator wasn't working properly. If it hasn't been converted, you have an ammeter in your dash. Nearly all the power coming out of the alternator runs into the ammeter, which is in your gauge panel. If there was smoke coming from anywhere under the dash, there's a good chance it was from the ammeter or the bulkhead connector wires feeding it
3. Your wire harness is at least 49 years old. Scabbing in and bypassing old wiring with new wiring is more likely to complicate matters than it is to fix them. Sounds like you already have aftermarket stuff scabbed in (aftermarket radio), which of course can also cause issues if it wasn't done well
4. Possibly, if you kicked it loose somewhere in the process of dropping dash. But I would say it's probably more likely you melted your ammeter or its wiring into oblivion

Go here and download the factory service manuals for your car. They will include a complete wiring diagram Service Manuals – MyMopar

Take a look at this diagram from MAD electrical. It shows the basic charging circuit and source of power for the harness, which can get a little lost in the FSM diagram. It is overly simplified (notice, no voltage regulator drawn in)
Catalog
View attachment 1715948950

MAD also has an ammeter bypass method all drawn up. It is not without its own issues, but if you ammeter has gone nuclear it may get you back on the road

Strongly consider installing a new wire harness. I just did this myself in my '74. Like most of these old girls mine had a few modifications to the factory harness- electric fans, A/F gauge, aftermarket stereo, ammeter bypass, etc. Some was done well, like my fans, with relays etc. Some wasn't great, live and learn. I had a horn relay go bad, and I mean Chernobyl. I took care of that relay, but from that point on had issues. After I tore the whole harness out to replace it, I found wires that had overheated all through the harness. Some was definitely from the horn relay going south, some from who knows what (or when!). But more than enough to cause all kinds of gremlins, which I was having.

It also sounds like you want to make some significant changes to the wiring (push button start, for example). Your best bet for that would be starting with a new harness intended to do that, rather than scabbing it into an old one that's already seen 50 years of abuse and doesn't have the provisions you want.

And you may also want to talk to this guy, @67Dart273, or @crackedback . Both are electrical guru's in my book, and I'm sure they'll have some ideas of where you went wrong and what the best, step-by-step plan is to troubleshoot it.

Good luck!

Thank you for the fast reply man! Means the world, I’m looking into a replacement harness now just for preventative maintenance, anything you would recommend? Also! Grounded the steering column, still no power, anywhere. Is there something simple I’m forgetting to check? Do I need the instrument cluster plugged in to start the car?

 

[67Dart273]

just got home and broke the MULTIMETER, the Green and Blue wires shown in the picture BOTH have continuity with ground. Is this what you where referring too? And what can I do about it?

No, check this with the wires disconnected from the alternator. The two field terminals on the alternator should show low resistance between the two, and "open" or "infinity" from either to ground.

 

[CrazyBlaize]

No, check this with the wires disconnected from the alternator. The two field terminals on the alternator should show low resistance between the two, and "open" or "infinity" from either to ground.

Got it, with all wires removed, there is continuity between the field terminals, at about 15 ohms or resistance, and neither terminal has continuity with ground. This is good right?

 

[hotrod swinger]

Probably wouldn’t be a bad idea to remove the under dash harness and inspect everything. It sounds more difficult than it is. I’m an amateur and I had it removed, repaired and reinstalled in less than a week.

I wouldn’t be surprised if you had one or more sections of wires melted together.

 

[CrazyBlaize]

Probably wouldn’t be a bad idea to remove the under dash harness and inspect everything. It sounds more difficult than it is. I’m an amateur and I had it removed, repaired and reinstalled in less than a week.

I wouldn’t be surprised if you had one or more sections of wires melted together.

didn't even know that was an option! is there a guide you followed?

 

[Mattax]

Got it, with all wires removed, there is continuity between the field terminals, at about 15 ohms or resistance, and neither terminal has continuity with ground. This is good right?

Correct. On an isolated field terminal neither brush should be in contact with ground.
As far as the 15 ohms through the rotor, its a bit high but measuring through the brushes isn't something I'd put much weight in.

Next measure green wire to ground and blue wire to ground. They should both be open (no continuity).

still no power, anywhere

That's different.
Fusible link melted?
Which way did the ammeter max out?

 

[CrazyBlaize]

Correct. On an isolated field terminal neither brush should be in contact with ground.
As far as the 15 ohms through the rotor, its a bit high but measuring through the brushes isn't something I'd put much weight in.

Next measure green wire to ground and blue wire to ground. They should both be open (no continuity).


That's different.
Fusible link melted?
Which way did the ammeter max out?

both green and blue to ground is open,
Fusible link is fine from what I can tell, anything I should look for?

 

[Mattax]

both green and blue to ground is open,
Fusible link is fine from what I can tell, anything I should look for?

Which way did the ammeter peg?

 

[Mattax]

Well you wrote, no power anywhere.
If there is no power anywhere, the fusible link might be have opened (melted).
Do any lights work? If so its not melted.

 

[72bluNblu]

Thank you for the fast reply man! Means the world, I’m looking into a replacement harness now just for preventative maintenance, anything you would recommend? Also! Grounded the steering column, still no power, anywhere. Is there something simple I’m forgetting to check? Do I need the instrument cluster plugged in to start the car?

The harness I installed is the "classic update" harness from American Autowire. Very high quality, but also pretty expensive. 1974 DODGE DART American Autowire 510603 American Autowire Classic Update Series Wiring Harness Kits | Summit Racing

It's also designed around the stock wiring layout with exception of the fuse block which is moved. Might not be what you're looking for, you may want something a little more generic if you're planning a push button start and other modifications. It also requires a good quality set of crimping tools, although, if you're going to do a custom harness you will need those anyway.

The instrument cluster doesn't need to be plugged in, but the ammeter does need to be hooked up or bypassed.

 

[hotrod swinger]

didn't even know that was an option! is there a guide you followed?

I just started following the harness from the bulkhead disconnecting everything as I followed it.

Most will agree this is much easier to do with front seat removed, only adds a few minutes to each end of the job.

 

[CrazyBlaize]

Well you wrote, no power anywhere.
If there is no power anywhere, the fusible link might be have opened (melted).
Do any lights work? If so its not melted.

Nothing electrical works, and the ampmeter pegged to the right.

 

[72bluNblu]

I just started following the harness from the bulkhead disconnecting everything as I followed it.

Most will agree this is much easier to do with front seat removed, only adds a few minutes to each end of the job.

Yes, much easier with the front seat removed. I honestly should pull the seat more often than I do, it makes working under the dash MUCH easier, and the seat only takes a couple minutes to remove and reinstall.

If you're going to pull the under dash harness, just make sure you take some pictures of where everything is first so you know where to plug it all back in. The diagrams are very helpful, but they don't show how it all goes under the dash.

 

[hotrod swinger]

A wiring diagram would definitely be helpful as well

 

[72bluNblu]

Nothing electrical works, and the ampmeter pegged to the right.

Full nuclear mode. And, as Mattax pointed out, that's just what was going back to the battery.

 

[CrazyBlaize]

The harness I installed is the "classic update" harness from American Autowire. Very high quality, but also pretty expensive. 1974 DODGE DART American Autowire 510603 American Autowire Classic Update Series Wiring Harness Kits | Summit Racing

It's also designed around the stock wiring layout with exception of the fuse block which is moved. Might not be what you're looking for, you may want something a little more generic if you're planning a push button start and other modifications. It also requires a good quality set of crimping tools, although, if you're going to do a custom harness you will need those anyway.

The instrument cluster doesn't need to be plugged in, but the ammeter does need to be hooked up or bypassed.

noted! ill try hooking up the amp meter in the morning before work, and checking the fusible link, and start thinking about aftermarket wiring.

 

[CrazyBlaize]

I just started following the harness from the bulkhead disconnecting everything as I followed it.

Most will agree this is much easier to do with front seat removed, only adds a few minutes to each end of the job.

sounds like a plan, if these last few things don't work tomorrow, I'm definitely gonna be trying this out soon.