80's 360 in a 60's mopar

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paulclark

paulclark

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So I just scored a strong running 360 for my '65 Barracuda, and I have to admit my knowledge of mopar engines starts fading hard in the 70's, I know the 360 was made throughout the 80's as a truck motor but that's as far as my knowledge goes. Can ya'll fill in the gaps about this motor and what to expect?

PROS:
-It's a 360!
-hardened valve seats
-relatively fresh, from a 60k panel truck which likely ran short gears, ran another 6k in another truck with zero problems before being pulled
-biscuit motor mounts, not spool

CONS:
-lowered compression? should I consider a thin head gasket at all with pump gas?

-small cam to say the least, this motor was in a panel truck so I can only image it's cammed for pulling stumps out of the ground. Normally I would be Ok at least for now with a stock cam but guessing even this will be too much. (I've read the relevant cam threads and not ready to get into a cam choice discussion, may just grab an Isky E-4 or Lunati and use that as a baseline)

-retarded cam - will I need to use an offset key to un-retard it, or will simply changing to another cam solve this?

- any other surprises from the 80's motor?



and also:

STUFF IM NOT SURE ABOUT
-Keep anything else from the 360? My first approach would be to use the long block and source everything on the outside of the engine as 273-era parts, alternator, etc. Lose the modern power steering stuff. Intake and carb will be some kind of Offy dual plane. Staying stock for now to get it on the road, strictly street.

-Is there any advantage or need to run the modern water pump?

-Will any smallblock distributor work, eg from a 273?

-Issues with crank end bore, i.e. 4-speed on an auto motor?



STUFF THAT'S IRRELEVENT:
-EGR system will be gone with the intake and manifolds
-2bbl carb - is this anything useful for anything else? I'd think a smogged 2-barrel wouldn't be the choice for anything except the complete system it was intended for
-EI system - sorry but I dig points, will install an older distributor.
-oil pan will be replaced with early A pan

What else is on there? Any other issues I should be aware of before stripping and cleaning it and painting it red?

Or is it just like any non-modern mopar smallblock at that point?

Thanks in advance for weighing in. Should be a fun boost to the project.
 

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Early oil pan wont work. You need a 360 specific CAR pan AND pickup. Also, your early A will need the V8 centerlink with the dropped center. Exhaust will probably be early 273 as I don't think the later Dakota manifolds are proven to fit (stand to be corrected here). Thin head gasket isn't going to help much...maybe .1 or.2 more comp. You'll also need 360/early A specific motor mounts....273's won't work. 273 distributor is fine. Use the early 273 timing chain cover and water pump to avoid having to change your rad inlets and outlets. While you're in there, you might as well install a true dbl-roller chain and sprockets. You can run the 360 2 bbl if you like, but a 340/360-port size aluminum intake and 600-650 cfm carb. will perform better. E-4 cam is too small for a 360...they are better suited for a 273 - 318 tops.

I'm sure more peeps will chime in with more info.......
 
Sounds good, this is replacing a 318 from a swap I did years ago, so the v8/4-speed stuff is already done. Will look around for 360 cam ideas. Thanks for the water pump details, just what I needed to know.
 
If you can also get the 273 valve covers, they are taller for adjustable valve train, if and when you go that route. And people will think it is a 273, not a torque maker 360, sleepers are great!
 
I would take all of the emissions equipment off, slide a nice mild cam in it, good intake and a decent size 4 barrel and call it done.

Unless you can stand 1000 bucks for headers, you will be running manifolds, so stay mild with the engine.

Leave the compression alone. You will gain leaps and bounds more power with simple bolt ons than a jump in compression will ever bring. Besides, this is a street car, right?
 
RustyRatRod said:
I would take all of the emissions equipment off, slide a nice mild cam in it, good intake and a decent size 4 barrel and call it done.

Unless you can stand 1000 bucks for headers, you will be running manifolds, so stay mild with the engine.

Leave the compression alone. You will gain leaps and bounds more power with simple bolt ons than a jump in compression will ever bring. Besides, this is a street car, right?
Click to expand...
X2 .... Amen
 
65Val said:
Early oil pan wont work. Y.....
Click to expand...

If you are handy with welding / brazing, you can "morph the two pans. In the 70's (reminder this is before Al Gore invented the internet)

I put a 340 into an FJ40 which I had had a 360 in

and put the 360 in my old roadrunner, where from came the 340

So I cut out a rear section from both pans using a simple jig, swapped them between pans, and welded them back in. Presto. 1 340 rear sump pan, and 1 360 "car" pan
 
Early A Bodies are very light won't take much power to make a rocket out of it. Cam duels and 4bbl is all you need plus gears shift kit and igintion wouldn't hurt.
 
The 360 is an external balance engine. You cannot use the teener flywheel,EDITas is. And since its an auto, you may have issues mating it to the M/T. You may need the Dakota type pilot bearing, and sometimes the input shaft needs to be bobbed to find room in the crank.

And you wanna stick with points? Really? I just can't find words.....I've been sitting here for over 5 minutes, trying to think of something nice to say about points, but I just cannot.Nor about the nearly 50 year old distributor
 
This is what I learned about hopping up smog motors. A thin head gasket is probably already there and if not the gain is nothing to talk about. Just install a dual plane for the street, a 750 square bore carb is as big as you want to go, mild cam durations work best. No head work needed unless the spring seat needs machining. The rest of the drive train is a simple shift kit and stall converter if needed and a rear gear change to suite the cam and intended purpose of the build.

Re sell everything that your not using to roll over into new parts to simply help the project and wallet. Learn how to rebuild and tune and install your own stuff and you will be waaaaay ahead of the curve.

And lastly, just enjoy! That's what I learned in my youth in trying to get somewhere in hot rodding cars with a light wallet. Just enjoy it all.

If you take the time to look at cams specs and where the manufacturer says they will perform in, there is no need to retard or advance the cam. The K.I.S.S. Method works great!
 
I believe that there is a specific oil pan to use on the 360 in the early a-bodies, I believe Memike the moderator knows what number to look for on the pan... The wrong pan may interfere with the steering linkages...

Use the timing chain cover and cast iron water pump from the old 69 and earlier 273/318/340. By doing this, you can make it hook up to the original radiator for the 65 Barracuda, you will just have to re mark tdc marks on the 360 vibration damper to match up with the old timing mark location on the timing cover...

By using the old timing cover and cast iron water pump, them stock power steering pump for it will bolt up to the cast iron water pump correctly.
 
Thanks for all the comments and good info, some of this I knew but don't mind the reminder, and some of it I didn't but really glad to learn!

65Val said:
Early oil pan wont work. You need a 360 specific CAR pan AND pickup........
Click to expand...
67Dart273 said:
If you are handy with welding / brazing, you can "morph the two pans.... I cut out a rear section from both pans using a simple jig, swapped them between pans, and welded them back in. Presto. 1 340 rear sump pan, and 1 360 "car" pan
Click to expand...
krazykuda said:
I believe that there is a specific oil pan to use on the 360 in the early a-bodies, I believe Memike the moderator knows what number to look for on the pan... The wrong pan may interfere with the steering linkages... ..
Click to expand...
Really good to know. I'll research threads about 360 oil pans in early A's to see if there are pics. Sounds like either find a certain pan or get ready to braze!

65Val said:
Also, your early A will need the V8 centerlink with the dropped center.... You'll also need 360/early A specific motor mounts....273's won't work....
Click to expand...
The centerlink got swapped when i installed the 318 years ago. If memory serves I previously used the 70 Dart 318 mounts that came with the engine. Oddly the mounts on this 360 look identical, though maybe they're not. Seems like the last 360 I saw (a 78 ) had spool mounts, but I could be wrong. Also wouldnt be surprised if a panel truck application had older style mount hardware. Either way, something to watch closely on installation.

65Val said:
Exhaust will probably be early 273 as I don't think the later Dakota manifolds are proven to fit (stand to be corrected here)....
Click to expand...
The car has dual exhaust installed for the 318, what i can't remember is what exhaust manifolds I used, might have been stock 70 Dart 318 manifolds, but I might have found 340s for it. Certainly won't be running the existing 360 iron. I'll have to take a close look at what's there and what's in my parts stash.

65Val said:
Thin head gasket isn't going to help much...maybe .1 or.2 more comp. ...
Click to expand...
Good to know, becasue I'd rather not take the heads off without a compelling reason.

65Val said:
273 distributor is fine....
Click to expand...
Thought so, didn't want to assume...

AJ/FormS said:
And you wanna stick with points? Really? I just can't find words.....I've been sitting here for over 5 minutes, trying to think of something nice to say about points, but I just cannot.Nor about the nearly 50 year old distributor
Click to expand...
Well, you have to adjust them, they're finicky and require maintainance. And I love that in anything other than a daily commuter. Electronic ignition is great if you want rugged daily reliability or if you want maximum performance, but that's not why I love mopars. I have gone to some trouble to install electronic ignition on other engines and in the end find that for recreational wrenching I miss the points. Call me crazy, I know. But at least I know what I like and why. Same with installing high tech modern transmissions in a vintage race car - sure it's better, but to me the old stuff has more soul.

65Val said:
Use the early 273 timing chain cover and water pump to avoid having to change your rad inlets and outlets. While you're in there, you might as well install a true dbl-roller chain and sprockets. ...
Click to expand...

Double roller chain and sprockets for sure.

krazykuda said:
Use the timing chain cover and cast iron water pump from the old 69 and earlier 273/318/340. By doing this, you can make it hook up to the original radiator for the 65 Barracuda, you will just have to re mark tdc marks on the 360 vibration damper to match up with the old timing mark location on the timing cover...
By using the old timing cover and cast iron water pump, them stock power steering pump for it will bolt up to the cast iron water pump correctly.
Click to expand...
That's really good to know, I'll be going that route. When I installed the 318 I used the stock aluminum water pump, and I never liked the way it looked.

spl440 said:
If you can also get the 273 valve covers, they are taller for adjustable valve train, if and when you go that route. And people will think it is a 273, not a torque maker 360, sleepers are great!
Click to expand...
Exactly the plan! I'm not ready to switch valve train until its' time to swap cams, and then I'll probably do both at once. But for sure 273 valve covers, even the stock ones look better! (Got a set of nice Commando covers ready to go on though)

65Val said:
You can run the 360 2 bbl if you like, but a 340/360-port size aluminum intake and 600-650 cfm carb. will perform better....
Click to expand...
Exactly. I always got better mileage with a 4-barrel (if I stay off it) than a 2-barrel anyway. I've got a couple of intakes here to choose from, will follow up with that.

65Val said:
E-4 cam is too small for a 360...they are better suited for a 273 - 318 tops....
Click to expand...
I have been thinking about an upcoming 273 rebuild and been reading all about 273 cams. Slipped my mind when I wrote this tha of course a 360 flows way more even stock, so it'll be a different cam. Something for a 360 like an E-4 is for a 273.

AJ/FormS said:
The 360 is an external balance engine. You cannot use the teener flywheel. And since its an auto, you may have issues mating it to the M/T. You may need the Dakota type pilot bearing, and sometimes the input shaft needs to be bobbed to find room in the crank...
Click to expand...
Got an externally balanced 360 flywheel to go in. The existing 833, bell, clutch and flywheel in the car now are all '66 Formula S pieces (10" clutch? can't remember)
My concerns are:
-will the 360 flywheel fit inside the early bellhousing?
-will the early pressure plate bolt to the 360 flywheel?
-if not for either of those it seems like I'll have to find a different bellhousing, and make sure it fits my 833's input bearing. Could also consider another later 833 i used to have, if i can find it. Would be nice not to have to.

RustyRatRod said:
I would take all of the emissions equipment off, slide a nice mild cam in it, good intake and a decent size 4 barrel and call it done. Unless you can stand 1000 bucks for headers, you will be running manifolds, so stay mild with the engine. Leave the compression alone. You will gain leaps and bounds more power with simple bolt ons than a jump in compression will ever bring. Besides, this is a street car, right?
Click to expand...
318willrun said:
X2 .... Amen
Click to expand...
273 said:
Early A Bodies are very light won't take much power to make a rocket out of it. Cam duels and 4bbl is all you need plus gears shift kit and igintion wouldn't hurt.
Click to expand...
rumblefish360 said:
This is what I learned about hopping up smog motors. A thin head gasket is probably already there and if not the gain is nothing to talk about. Just install a dual plane for the street, a 750 square bore carb is as big as you want to go, mild cam durations work best. No head work needed unless the spring seat needs machining. The rest of the drive train is a simple shift kit and stall converter if needed and a rear gear change to suite the cam and intended purpose of the build.
Re sell everything that your not using to roll over into new parts to simply help the project and wallet. Learn how to rebuild and tune and install your own stuff and you will be waaaaay ahead of the curve.
And lastly, just enjoy! That's what I learned in my youth in trying to get somewhere in hot rodding cars with a light wallet. Just enjoy it all.
If you take the time to look at cams specs and where the manufacturer says they will perform in, there is no need to retard or advance the cam. The K.I.S.S. Method works great!
Click to expand...
This is exactly what I have in mind - when I was younger and foolisher, I made lots of mistakes i still see other people make - i.e. going way too far into soemthign than they have to. Sure, it's a labor of love, but you really have to identify your real intended purpose in order to avoid making it hard on yourself.

In my case I know how i enjoy driving - on the street, not on the track. I like the feel of torque, but rarely make it to WOT, rarely found myself running out of power even with a 273, so I can measure carefully whether I need to go to the huge effort I see racers do to squeeze out that extra half second. Since I am on street tires, with road suspension, my ETs would always be limited anyway. So my approach for a little more power (always good) is to go with a larger displacement engine, mildly warmed over with reliable bolt-on mods for more torque. this is also the advantage of having more than one mopar - I'm not trying to make one car do everything. My 65 Barracuda is a fun hot rod for cruising around town, if i ever get interested in track days it would probably be with a different car.

Much appreciated from everyone, the feedback is very useful to let me know I'm on track or when i'm not.
 
Well, it sounds like your own your way with a plan. Enjoy!
 
paulclark said:
It was so much harder to learn this stuff before the internet.
Click to expand...

Partially I agree. Getting good info for YOUR goal was hard.
The MP books provided excellent help and about the best info there was.
 
That's true! Those old MP books were a wealth of knowledge, fueled my adolescent dreams! Way ahead of where I was on the street for sure.
 
Yea man! That's 1 of 2 reasons of what kept me in the MoPar camp. Once I enacted there "Tip's" I had found going fast easy and whooped my friends in a most handy fashion, regularly.

The other reason was they took a serious pounding unlike the Chevy, which died very quickly.
 
For me it was the interchangeability, the potential for finding all you needed in a junkyard in some other model, which sold me.

That's not really what got me into them though, it was my '63 Dart, my first mopar love. And I still have it -- but that's another story.
 
you can use 318 mounts, youll just have to shim them as they dont quite line up on one side. the Cheapo chrome pans for a 360 actually fit, may have to clearance just a small spot with a sledge. the big Valiant mounts (thicker than the dart mounts) will get the motor higher off the centerlink and K member. Youll have to get a neutral weighted flywheel for a 360/ 833. 65 autos will require T-flite paddy's bushing and a B&M weighted flex plate. everything from a 273 will bolt on short of the pan, even the heads. points distributors always seem to work....The 360 4bbl truck motor I bought out of a camper had the same cam as the 340 came with. ditch that 2bbl. yoiu can keep the EGR if you want, its pretty simple. Oh, almost forgot. Your truck will have rotators on the valve springs on the exhaust side. Youll want to get rid of them if you put in a cam. Just buy some 340/360 car springs.
 
paulclark said:
It was so much harder to learn this stuff before the internet.
Click to expand...

I disagree totally. Before the internet, there were books. As long as you stayed away from biased magazines, like they still are today, you were ok. Technical books and such, like all of the Mopar manuals. They were and still are some of the best sources of information you can get your hands on.

I much prefer books over the internet. First, places like this......while they are good, they offer a thousand different opinions. not all of the are good or correct.

Secondly, when information is transferred to the internet, there is always room for error.

I much prefer good technical manuals and learning things on my own. It sticks with me longer. At least it has so far.
 
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