904 cable shift stuck in Park

[amusingarts]

Hi Guys,
I'm stumped and need so advice.
I recently pulled the 273 out of my 65 Valiant (leaving the trans in the car) to have some engine work done. When the engine was ready to come out I had to push the car back a few feet to get the hoist into position, no problem. Pulled the engine and then pushed the car forward to shut the garage door, no problem.
With the engine out I felt it was a good time to replace the leaky old rotten shift cables, I also replace the front pump gasket and seal that was seeping, while the engine was out. So while the engine was out I pulled the old cables and compared them carefully with a new set of used cables, the length was identical, and the groove in the shift cable nose was the same (my car column shift) The cables were identical in every sense I could identify.
Before re-installing the engine I pulled the steering column so the headers would clear and I could connect the new cables to the column.

To reinstall the engine I again needed to push the car back to position the hoist, but the car wouldn't budge. I figured the quickest solution (rented hoist, time is money) was to disconnect the u joint at the diff, move the car, install everything torque converter first, then the engine, hook up the cables,and then using the selector, I would be able to put it in neutral and roll it.
Wrong! Got everything installed and the car is stuck in Park. I disconnected the shift cable at the trans and pulled and pushed the selector through the detents and it wouldn't budge in any gear. It was like there was no neutral. figured it had to be the parking sprag, so I disassembled it to check but it all seems good to go.

Ive had the car for 12 years and am pretty familiar with it having rebuilt the WHOLE thing. I think the problem is freeing up the parking sprag but done know how, please help.

 

[amusingarts]

I was just thinking, if the trans dropped 6 inches when i pulled the engine, could that be enough to bend the park sprag so it will not disengage?

 

[KickDown]

I would think you have an issue with the park cable. That's the one that runs rearmost on the transmission into the park pawl housing. You say you can shift through all the detents but the car is still in park, which suggests the park cable or the mechanism inside the park housing to release the pawl is not working. The shift & park cables operate independently of each other. Disconnect the park cable from the column & try to pull the inner cable with a pair of pliers & see if this releases the pawl. If not, you will have to get inside the pawl housing & check out what is going on in there. I think the park cable has slipped out of the cable retainer in the pawl housing. I've had it happen a couple of times.

 

[amusingarts]

I would think you have an issue with the park cable. That's the one that runs rearmost on the transmission into the park pawl housing. You say you can shift through all the detents but the car is still in park, which suggests the park cable or the mechanism inside the park housing to release the pawl is not working. The shift & park cables operate independently of each other. Disconnect the park cable from the column & try to pull the inner cable with a pair of pliers & see if this releases the pawl. If not, you will have to get inside the pawl housing & check out what is going on in there. I think the park cable has slipped out of the cable retainer in the pawl housing. I've had it happen a couple of times.

Thanks for the reply Kickdown,
It's definitely an issue with the park cable. I'm sure I have the cable hooked up correctly, this morning I rechecked it and did as you said, left the column end free and tried to push/pull the inner cable wile my buddy rocked the car back and forth to relieve any tension pressure on the pawl/sprag. Unfortunately that didn't work.

 

[fshd4it]

I'm looking at the park assembly in a '65 727 right now. There's a spring that pushes the pawl away from the park sprag when the cable/lever/roller is pulled, but even if that spring is broken, I'd think the pawl should fall away due to gravity. The plug in the bottom of the cover gives access to the tang on the end of the spring that holds the sleeve (from the lever) onto the cable. I'm thinking somehow the cable isn't pulling the lever far enough for the roller to clear the pawl, maybe the part with the sleeve that clips on the end of the cable isn't in the lever correctly?

 

[KickDown]

Thanks for the photos fshd4it. These are just what you need to understand what is going on inside that park pawl housing. In the lower photo you can see the inner cable inside the housing. The groove to the left of the tapered end is where the cable retainer spring (the curly one on the right of the push rod) sits in. The longer spring on the left of the push rod is an over-travel spring which tensions the pawl against the parking gear if park is selected when the pawl is adjacent to a tooth rather than a detent. The retainer spring is fairly strong & a few attempts may be necessary to get the cable to click in.

 

[amusingarts]

I'm looking at the park assembly in a '65 727 right now. There's a spring that pushes the pawl away from the park sprag when the cable/lever/roller is pulled, but even if that spring is broken, I'd think the pawl should fall away due to gravity. The plug in the bottom of the cover gives access to the tang on the end of the spring that holds the sleeve (from the lever) onto the cable. I'm thinking somehow the cable isn't pulling the lever far enough for the roller to clear the pawl, maybe the part with the sleeve that clips on the end of the cable isn't in the lever correctly?

View attachment 1715194277

View attachment 1715194278

Those are nice pictures, shows the works of this system clearly.
My spring is set up just like your pic. it's not upside down or bent or distorted.
In your first picture, that must be the disengaged position of the pawl? In my car the pawl is not protruding down below the edge of the case as your pic shows. It is pretty much parallel with the trans housing and above the edge, not protruding down like your picture . It moves only about 1/8 inch or less back and forth. There is also a flat metal plate like thing that I can move a tad with my finger. I can also see an indent and what looks like a pin that fits the indent. But as far as getting any of it to move, that's a no go.

When you say "There's a spring that pushes the pawl away from the park sprag when the cable/lever/roller is pulled" are you referring to another spring or the one that wraps around the sleeve the cable slips into?

 

[fshd4it]

In the first picture, the pivot bolt for the pawl is on the right side, and there's a spring that wraps around it between the pawl and the forward edge of the case that flips the pawl away from the sprag when not in "park". It's hard to see in that shot, I'll can get a better one if you need. That's the disengaged position, the lever on the left has a roller at the bottom, which is pushed into a notch at the business end of the pawl to engage park. Here's a shot of the roller and pawl, park engaged.

 

[fshd4it]

I was wrong, the spring is around the pivot on both sides of the pawl. I was thinking about the way newer ones are set up. The second picture shows the machined ramp where the roller engages.

 

[amusingarts]

I was wrong, the spring is around the pivot on both sides of the pawl. I was thinking about the way newer ones are set up. The second picture shows the machined ramp where the roller engages.

View attachment 1715194420

View attachment 1715194421

Right, Since my trans is still in the car and up on jack stands it's hard to see inside, but on mine it looks like the ramp and roller are maybe partially engage. It may not be fully engaged since I can move the pawl a tad, but not much.
I think I'm going to have it taken to the trans shop and have them look at it. I'm getting too old to be crawling around under there. I pulled the pan off to see what if anything was could be accessed from there but that seems to be a dead end, could not see a connection inside the pan.
The spring you were talking about wraps around the the pivot pin it look like. My sppring might be broken because when I wiggle the pawl up and down it doesn't feel like there is any load on it.

 

[fshd4it]

Sounds like the lever (with the roller on one end and the spring-loaded cable sleeve on the other) may be jammed up. It's supposed to be free to rock back and forth, just the cable or the spring action on the pawl move it. I have no idea what the "plate" in the middle of the lever does. Pic #1 is how the cable sleeve/end is supposed to attatch. Could it possibly be like pic #2? Cable pushed in too far? Not sure it would even fit under the cover that way though. Pat Blaise (T-flit Patty on Ebay) is probably the best guy to go to for these older transmissions, both parts and info. Good luck, lemme know if there's any more I can do to help.

 

[amusingarts]

Sounds like the lever (with the roller on one end and the spring-loaded cable sleeve on the other) may be jammed up. It's supposed to be free to rock back and forth, just the cable or the spring action on the pawl move it. I have no idea what the "plate" in the middle of the lever does. Pic #1 is how the cable sleeve/end is supposed to attatch. Could it possibly be like pic #2? Cable pushed in too far? Not sure it would even fit under the cover that way though. Pat Blaise (T-flit Patty on Ebay) is probably the best guy to go to for these older transmissions, both parts and info. Good luck, lemme know if there's any more I can do to help.

View attachment 1715194509

View attachment 1715194510

 

[amusingarts]

No, the sleeve and spring are installed correctly, the coil with the washer holds the pawl and the tail of the spring sort of wraps around one leg if the pawl to keep it in position. The sleeve just drops down a tad, just enough to slide the housing over it.
I've bought a lot of stuff from Pat Blais over the years, in fact he gave me the lead on the nice shiny cables I was installing.
I have an email in to him but he's been on vacation and and now may have taken an extended 4th weekend. Or else he's just sick of me (hehe).

 

[amusingarts]

By the way, Thanks for the effort and great Photos. I'll let you know what the shop says next month. Might help someone else with the same problem in the future.

 

[dibbons]

I am experiencing the same problem. Unfortunately, here we experience another thread that leads up to the climax with no solution at the end. Anyone have the answer or can refer to another more "complete" thread? Thank you.