A-727 small metal debris in pan - rebuild?

Transmission and Drivetrain Tech

  1. MungoMopar

    MungoMopar Active Member

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    Hi,
    I have a 727 behind the 360 in my '67 2-dr sedan Dart. It's a '71/'72 PK3515844 tranny that I'm pleased to have, original behind a 360ci. The 727 exterior is quite clean and I can see a modern tail housing gasket, I've assumed that it has been rebuilt recently; I've had the car for less than a year.
    The 1-2 & 2-3 shifts are so early that it's in top by ~20mph. I've adjusted the throttle pressure linkage but no improvement. I have no problem when manually shifted, happy other than no 3-2 kick-down. Based on this shift issue I decided to adjust the bands, check the valve body pressure adjustments and while I'm in there, install a Transgo TF-2 shift kit.
    I've just removed the pan and I've found some small metal particles in the pan; not a huge amount but too much to dismiss (please see photo). The color looks like aluminum, I've dragged a magnet thru the drain tray and some sticks but the bright particles do not.

    I suspect that I should be using this sign to prompt a full rebuild.
    I'm hoping that members here who have serviced and rebuilt many 727s and can confirm that this is a definite rebuild or am I being too dramatic?

    Tim

    727Debris.jpg
     
  2. 67/6barracuda

    67/6barracuda FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Depending on how long it has been since last service there’s nothing there that I would worry about. Not seeing any heavy clutch material and you will get small particles of metal or otherwise as normal wear. Don’t think the early 71/72 has part throttle kickdown, unless it was added. I think itcame out in 73. Sounds like a shift linkage adjustment and slap a new filter and fluid. Gotta find the happy spot for the linkage adjustments. Don’t take my word though I’m a novice at best. I just rebuilt my 727 last year for the first time. Im sure the pros will pop up shortly.
     
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    • Lord Sparky

      Lord Sparky Well-Known Member

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      How does the filter look?
       
    • 67/6barracuda

      67/6barracuda FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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      Not seeing the filter.
       
    • MungoMopar

      MungoMopar Active Member

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      Thanks for your comments, please see filter pics. I don't think that the dark bits are from the cat litter where I dropped it, they must have been there when removed.

      727FilterBottom.jpg

      727FilterTop.jpg
       
    • MungoMopar

      MungoMopar Active Member

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      Hi 67/6barracuda,
      Thank you for giving hope that we're not necessarily looking for zero debris.
      I hadn't given it a thought about not having the part throttle kickdown function due to year of manufacture; I've just checked the valve body and I confirm that it does have the '3-2 downshift and limit valve assembly' shown on page 113 of Munroe's 727 book. I will take a careful look in there for the right bits and their condition.
       
    • 67/6barracuda

      67/6barracuda FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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      The filter looks ok to me, dirty yes, but otherwise normal. If it wasn’t slipping, and you were shifting early. Adjust bands, New fluid, filter, and small incremental adjustment to the kick down linkage, drive, test, adjust, repeat making notes of where the shift point is.
       
    • MungoMopar

      MungoMopar Active Member

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      Thank you for taking a look at the filter and debris, that's much appreciated; I'll carry on with cleaning and checking the valve body and report back when it's rolling.
      Thank you also Lord Sparky.
       
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      • TrailBeast

        TrailBeast AKA Mopars4us on Youtube

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        I agree it doesn't look too bad, but there are some concerning bits in there.
        Normal would be little flakes of metal like is there and some blackish paste.
        Blackish paste is normal wear of the fluid pressures wearing on aluminum fins inside the converter, and the metal flakes is normal bushing wear.

        All that said, black chunks are not normal.
        Since it's already out it would be wise to at least pull the pump and clutch packs for inspection.
        Chances are you will get away with it for awhile if you don't do it if I'm seeing what I think I am seeing.
        If you plan to keep the car and be able to trust it, then now's the time to make sure it's ok.
        With a messed up TP control and early shifting I suspect you will find the direct clutch got toasty. (hench the black chunks)

        (retired ASE and ATRA certified here)

        Oh, and don't forget to flush your cooler lines both directions, as that kind of stuff can and does get hung up in the coolers
         
      • Lord Sparky

        Lord Sparky Well-Known Member

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        I opted for a rebuild. It's happening now at the shop. I figure it's better to find a small problem than to let it get into a big, expensive problem. Kind of like brushing your teeth daily.

        Powers Trans Pan.jpg

        Trans filter.jpg
         
      • 67/6barracuda

        67/6barracuda FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        Good choice if you have the means then....hell yeah!!!!Time to trick that thing out. Good luck, let us know what else you find during tear down and your plans to beef up. I have the 360/727 combo as well, during my rebuild I added stock style rebuild kit from northern auto, the TF2, billet rear servo with HD retainer, and a bolt in sprag.
         
      • MungoMopar

        MungoMopar Active Member

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        TrailBeast,
        Thank you for taking a look at the filter and pan. I note what you suspect about the direct clutch.
        The trans is still in the car, just the pan off and VB now out.
        The early shifting was insensitive to adjusting the TP control cable on road tests, I'm hoping that I find TP out of adjustment at the valve body. Do you see how else the early shifting happens?
         
      • TrailBeast

        TrailBeast AKA Mopars4us on Youtube

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        Ah, I was thinking it was out for some reason.
        Generally besides TP pressure being off, the governor spring and valve weights control shift points.
        One easy trick we used to use was to cut another governor spring in half and screw it into the original spring. (this was the simplest way)
        The other was to grind down the valves in the governor to lighten them.

        Another way is by using line pressure.
        This is the overall pressure the trans uses, and raising the line pressure can also delay and firm up shifts.
        Most shift kits instruct to raise the line pressure, but doing only that without the related springs from the kit in the valve body can cause other issue's.
        If you are planning a kit, don't change anything on the VB until after the kit is in and test run along with any TP control adjustments involved.
        THEN if you need more tuning you can go from there.

        The spinning output shaft tries to throw the weights to the outsides of their bores to cause the next upshift.
        TP fluid fights that centrifugal force until the driveshaft speed gets high enough to overcome it and the trans shifts.
        So lighter weights or a stronger spring resists that longer in the output shaft speed causing higher mph and firmer shifts.

        Keep this in mind if after everything you do doesn't help, or help enough.

        Here's a Hot Rod article about governor weights and the mods we used to make.

        https://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-0208-increasing-shift-speeds-on-the-727-torqueflite/
         
        Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
      • CudaFactHackJob

        CudaFactHackJob Well-Known Member

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        When you've got the valve body down; that's a good opportunity to take a screwdriver and pry between the lugs on the sun gear shell and front (direct) drum. Then pry from the front of the direct drum; pushing it back; to determine end play. If those particles came from a thrust washer and your end play is 1/8" or greater, take the trans out and drop out the front drums at least. The direct drum is the one the front band rides on.
         
      • MungoMopar

        MungoMopar Active Member

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        Thank you for sharing your knowledge and providing the Hotrod link.
        Would it be fair to say that the early upshifts are not a surprise to you based on the trans originating in say a '71 Newport Royal (4000 pounds) and now fitted in a Dart (2900 pounds)? It's not so much a fault as being the intended character for the original application?
         
      • MungoMopar

        MungoMopar Active Member

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        Thank you, I will try to find the end play, while trans still in vehicle. There are several thrust washers, do you suspect one in particular from the symptoms?
         
      • TrailBeast

        TrailBeast AKA Mopars4us on Youtube

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        Not surprised at all, as the TF series transmissions have always been soft stock even though they are tough as hell.
        They built them so granny had a nice smooth ride to the store.:D
        They perk up nice with a little work.
         
      • Krooser

        Krooser Reform School Graduate

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        Our fellow member here Wyrmrider was a good friend of "Mr. Shift" who developed those TF shift kits. He also volunteered his cars as test beds for new products. I would bet Jim has some good stories to tell...
         
      • CudaFactHackJob

        CudaFactHackJob Well-Known Member

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        No, I suspect a bushing; burnt from low fluid level. Converter is probably scuffed up from running dry.
         
      • TrailBeast

        TrailBeast AKA Mopars4us on Youtube

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        The one thing that made me question that trans was the black bits.
        (Especially the black bits on the top side of the filter.)
        That is a tell tale sign of burned clutches.
        I have probably shown 1,000 or more customers the contents of their trans pan, and that's exactly what I would have told this one.

        It might still last awhile though.
         
      • MungoMopar

        MungoMopar Active Member

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        Hi, I've now checked the end play and it's way more than 1/8" and there is some radial play also. Not the best news but thank you for sending me down the route to this check. I see now why you suspect a bushing. Please see video

        Now there is vibration issue with the car that may well be connected to the trans, now that I've seen the slop in the direct clutch / sun gear shell region. I bought the car last summer and there is a harsh vibration at ~55mph, bad enough that I back off to 50mph to be fairly smooth again. I've been checking out the driveshaft and axle, I was suspicious of the Ford 9" with wedges on the spring mounts for diff inclination. Can a loose TF shake at cruise speed, I'm guessing so?
        It is now time to take the trans out for a rebuild, for sure. Is it likely that there is damage over and above that replaced by a master rebuild kit?
        The torque converter is under suspicion, TrailBeast mentioned earlier also. I don't have much opportunity for shops with TF torque converter remanufacturing experience nearby, can you suggest a brand of TC to buy mail order for street/strip (Dart/360ci/3.5:1 9" axle)?
         
        Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
      • MungoMopar

        MungoMopar Active Member

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        Duplicate deleted
         
      • TrailBeast

        TrailBeast AKA Mopars4us on Youtube

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        Don't think I have ever run across a trans so bad it was out of balance and cause a vibration, but converters yes.
        However, I don't think the converter is a problem here.
        TF transmissions commonly had lot of end play, so I wouldn't sweat that too much either.
        End play is caused by thrust washers more than bushings.
        Not saying it couldn't benefit from a rebuild, but I sure wouldn't pull it going on what I have seen so far.
        Personally, if that trans were my own I'd put the Transgo stage 2 kit in the valve body and see how it acts.

        If it had already been out I would have pulled the pump and check the two main clutch packs.
        The front clutch pack is the one closest to the pump, easiest to get to and is also the one that tends to go.
        Especially when there has been some screwy things going on with the TP and it's adjustments.

        Some people like to see others scatter their stuff all over the work bench, but I'd rather see you drive it.:D
        It can always be scattered all over the bench later if need be.
         
      • CudaFactHackJob

        CudaFactHackJob Well-Known Member

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        That might just be all wobble. You didn't follow my instructions. Nice video tho; I liked it. Is that fluid old? It sure is red.
         
      • MungoMopar

        MungoMopar Active Member

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        Is the LH prybar in the right place? The screwdriver should have been far left? Can you get a driver in front of the band to get contact with the direct drum?
        I haven't changed the fluid in the 500 miles since I bought the Dart.
         
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