A230 Linkage Up or Down?

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95dakotadude

95dakotadude

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I've been having some woes with my tranny lately. It's hard to get into second gear at almost any RPM. If I'm sitting in the driveway it'll row through the gears no problem. Usually, if I'm just cruising around 2nd will only give me a little bit of trouble. If I'm hitting it hard (most of the time) 2nd won't have it, and it'll take a few seconds for it to go in. Once in a great while third won't like it either. First doesn't happen either unless i'm only going like 5mph, and that's pretty hard too. The tranny doesn't ever grind or pop out of gear.

At first, I thought it could be the shifter as I had the original Inland shifter attached. I just installed a NOS hurst a couple days ago and it didn't fix the problem.

I have a hard time thinking it's a syncro because I just had the transmission rebuilt (kind of, put 2 bad trannies together to make one good one), and the mechanic said everything looked fairly good!

I don't think it's the tranny fluid being too cold because I'd drive it for over 30mins and it still wouldn't like 2nd, although sometimes it does get ever so slightly better. I'm running 80w-90 gear oil. Although I've been reading that people have been having problems with this. I may try ATF or Pennzoil Syncromesh.

I just thought of something while I was sitting at my desk. Would it matter if my linkage tabs or up or down? Here is a picture of my transmission with the tabs down. I can't remember if I actually installed it that way or not, nor do I remember if I had this 2nd gear problem before the rebuild (it's been a long time). In short: as the transmission sits in the car now, the shifting tabs are OPPOSITE of the picture, as in up instead of down. Would this make a difference, and which way should they be?

Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading my short novel :)
SRvwLnf.jpg
 
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That is also a custom set up, so what are the numbers on your linkage arms?
 
Alaskan, thanks for the image. I always like seeing and saving things like that that I might use in the future.

I don't have the numbers on me as I'm not at home, but the shifter setup is from an A-body. All I did was put a bar between the B and E mounts and drill holes into the metal bar to accomodate the A body shifter. The transmission is in a Dodge Dakota and the A shifter location was in the perfect spot for inside the cab, where B was too short and E was too long.
 
Just figured my 3 speed floor shift and column shift . Floor shift linkage at top Column shift linkage at bottom
 
1) First; make sure your oil is NOT synthetic
2) get rid of that 140 wt in favor of 75/ whatever; or 50% Dextron. That thick oil is hard enough to squeeze out in summer
3) prove your neutral-gate
4) Then set your plate departure at .080. Make sure the car does not creep with the pedal down.
4B) Then make sure every mount is 100% A-OK, especially the driver's side engine.
4C) make sure the Z-bar isn't moving transversely, and that BOTH ends are firmly anchored and immovable..... especially the frame end. Mopar welded a reinforcing bracket on there for a reason.
4D) just for kicks. you might want to check out the nylon ball-bushings

#4 B-C-D all affect the plate departure
check in the order given;stop when the issue is resolved
You'll know the plate departure is right when shifting into reverse doesn't grind.
 
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@AJ
1.) My oil is 80-90. I just checked. I'm pretty sure it's not synthetic. This is what is currently in there: Parts Master 80W-90 Gear Oil
2.) I was thinking of running a 50/50 ATF to gear oil, or pennzoil syncromesh. Or 2qts ATF to 1 qt. gear gear oil
3.) I know the neutral gate is spot on because I had it set with a drill bit at the time of installation, it couldn't have got out of sync.
4.) Car doesn't creep at all with pedal down. I'm not sure of plate departure, I'll have to check that when I get home I suppose.
4B.) All the mounts are top notch. The engine mounts are solid mounts. (This tranny is in a dodge dakota, not stock btw).
4C.) I don't have a Zbar. This is a hydraulic setup with a hydraulic throwoutbearing which I'm 100% sure it works.
4D.) What are the nylon ball bushings?

Reverse never grinds. I've never had a problem with grinding into reverse - I hear this is a common problem but I don't have it. If I'm at a stop and go to reverse, no issues. I was thinking maybe the reverse detent ball possibly fell. I've seen threads about this and they usually result in 2nd being a bear, but I can't find any pics of how to install it or check for it. I know minimal about transmissions and I don't want to have to take it out of the car right now, because I don't have enough time for a big job like that.

If I get the chance to go home this weekend I'm going to try unbolting the side cover a little bit and knocking it up a little bit(I've heard success with this) and using a different fluid. I might also try flipping the linkages just for kicks. I will post my findings this weekend if I go back. Hopefully its one of these three.
 
flipping the levers will just change the location of the gear positions on the stick; it should have no bearing on the shifting. Reverse should be to the left and up IIRC
If you have hydraulic system, then ignore all #4s
Do not use any synthetic period! In winter you can use 100% ATF.
The Hydro TO kit eliminates all external problems
I can tell you exactly what the problem is , but don't hate me...... the brass is not locking onto the brake-cones.
They could be worn out, or they could be oval, or it could be that the oil is too slippery, or the clutch disc is dragging, or the engine rpm is hanging up,etc..
Once the rpm is severely mismatched, as in the engine went back to idle while you struggled with the shift, those dinky brass rings can hardly drag things back into synchronization,when they are working correctly;.....never mind when they're not.

On the bench,gear in one hand and brass in the other,and both fully de-oiled; the brass should begin braking on the cones with the tiniest of pressure, and kindof screw themselves on until it all locks up. At this point, there should be close to or better than .050 distance remaining between the brass and the main body.
When working with used brass, I put the best-locking, and highest-sitting one on second;gear, the worst on direct.
(I'm guessing at the .050 spec, cuz I've never actually measured it. I'm guessing a cold measurement of maybe .020 would be too small. The brass will expand when hot and hit the main-body before any braking would occur. But even if the number is big enough to brake on day-one, how many miles before you're ripping it apart again. So the higher the better. I don't think I've ever seen one higher than guessing, .080 )
If you can't get a good lock, you will have to put the gear on the lathe, and with 120/150grit emery cloth stretched over a long file, rough up the cone, using a stroking motion, as if you were actually filing it. You will probably find a little ridge on the bottom of the cone up next to the main body; this has to come off. Do not take material off the rest of the cone; just take the shine off. Don't spin it too fast, a couple of hundred rpm is lots.
If the brass rocks on the thus polished cone, it is oval, and will never work properly. If you are clever, you will figure out how to make it round again, and if you can get it to brake properly, congratulations. Just don't put it on second gear.
Make sure your engine is returning to idle properly, ie the throttle blades are snapping closed.
 
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By flipping the linkages I was referring to putting the tabs facing down instead of up, not flipping from left to right. It sounds like you're saying syncros or possibly the fluid is too thick. I guess I will have to pray that it's the fluid and try that first. If I can't get away with that, I suppose the 3spd has to come out. This thing has caused me so many issues, and I just put a ton of money into it. If it's gotta come out again, a 4spd is going in.

I live in Wisconsin. The truck will be driven during the fall/spring/summer. Once in a while we will have a few really hot days of summer (100F, but rare.) It' s usually about 80ish. Will this be too hot to run straight ATF? I suppose I could go back to do the mix of 2 qt ATF and 1 Gear oil.
 
comments in the quote
95dakotadude said:
By flipping the linkages I was referring to putting the tabs facing down instead of up, so was I. Flipping the linkage levers only affects which way; forward or back, you move the stick, to select whichever gears are in the chosen gate.
not flipping from left to right. It sounds like you're saying syncros or possibly the fluid is too thick. Hyup.
I guess I will have to pray that it's the fluid and try that first.Good plan
If I can't get away with that, I suppose the 3spd has to come out. Probably
This thing has caused me so many issues, and I just put a ton of money into it. If it's gotta come out again, a 4spd is going in. Mine comes out in 17 minutes, once it's jacked up on the hoist...and I have the additional chore of taking the exhaust off first, and then the GVOD. Fortunately it now is all aluminum.
4-speeds have the very same problems, plus one,lol.
I live in Wisconsin. The truck will be driven during the fall/spring/summer. Once in a while we will have a few really hot days of summer (100F, but rare.) It' s usually about 80ish.same as here...about
Will this be too hot to run straight ATF? I would feel sorry for the poor cluster-pin.
I suppose I could go back to do the mix of 2 qt ATF and 1 Gear oil. You could try that for sure, but , in a hard-working pick up I think I would run 50/50. I have over 100,000 miles on my A833 with 50/50.
But above all; no synthetics; they are just too slippery.
Click to expand...
All the best to you,man.
 
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Unfortunately changing to full ATF did not work. It seemed to smooth out the shifting while just sitting in the garage (even though that worked fine before, it just felt better), it didn't help while running it hard. The transmission was slightly louder as predicted with the thinner oil. I will be pulling the trans within a couple weeks and putting in new syncros, seals, and probably bearings since I'm there. Hopefully all of the gears will be alright. Anybody have any tips for this? I've never rebuilt a transmission before so I will be walking blind.

Thanks
Karl G.
 
AJ, sorry for blowing up the thread. I tried to PM you, but your inbox is full.

Last night I was doing some work and realized that my transmission doesn't really downshift to any gear. Downshifting to first I have to be at pretty much a complete stop. To downshift to second the RPM has to be way down or I have to force it in (with A LOT of force). Once again, grinding is SUPER rare and only happens when I try to jam it into second. Does this mean that both syncros or bad or could it mean something else?
Thanks
 
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95dakotadude said:
AJ, sorry for blowing up the thread. I tried to PM you, but your inbox is full.

Last night I was doing some work and realized that my transmission doesn't really downshift to any gear. Downshifting to first I have to be at pretty much a complete stop. To downshift to second the RPM has to be way down or I have to force it in (with A LOT of force). Once again, grinding is SUPER rare and only happens when I try to jam it into second. Does this mean that both syncros or bad or could it mean something else?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Hey dude
it means it's not synchronizing lol
And you are not helping it by allowing the rpm to fall too low.
Think about it; when you are upshifting, the rpm has to come down until the rpms are pretty close, then the brass gets to work.
Well when downshifting, it's the opposite; the rpm has to be increased to be near the synchronization point, then the brass gets to work.
But more than likely you have other issues;
Insufficient clutch departure, or wrong oil.
If the flywheel is tickling the clutch disc, this is big trouble; the brass is not strong enough to deal with that.Also,the disc has to slide freely on the input shaft, so it can self-center.Also the clutch fingers all have to release simultaneously. Also the pilot bushing must not be dragging the input gear around with the crank.
Maybe it helps to picture what is going on during a downshift.
The output shaft is connected to and spinning with the driveshaft.
Any time the car is moving, both synchronizer assemblies are spinning with it.
The input gear is driven by the disc and ergo the crank, anytime the clutch pedal is not depressed. And so is every single gear in the box.
When you step on the pedal,and begin to move the stick, the brass is supposed to slow-down or speed-up whatever gear you have chosen to driveshaft speed. In so doing it has to also change the speeds of every other gear in the box and
the disc! That by itself is a pretty big request. But if the disc, for whatever reason, resists this action, the brass may fail in it's duty.
Next is the oil
The way the brass does it's job is by friction-braking the selected gear, to match it's speed. To do that, it needs to squeeze out any oil that has splashed up there. It cannot begin to do it's job until the oil is out. And the oil better not be too slippery or too clingy, cuz this slows down the operation. If it takes too long,AND if there is the spinning-disc problem,then the shift rpm window falls to impossible.
But
the oil better not be too thick, or too thin,or the level too high,either; cuz then the cluster either slows down too fast or too slow, and the brass cannot deal with that either.
So, back up the bus, and start from the beginning, with the correct grade,type, and quantity of oil. Then set your departure to .060 to .080. And try it again.
In your case I would suggest closer to .080 cuz of the possible dragging-disc issue. Do not use the freeplay method, this time. AFTER you have a successfully working departure, make note of your freeplay, and from then on you can use the freeplay method.
And here's a wildcard;
if the trans is not original to the engine, did you check/adjust the driveline centerline between them? If the trans is not in a reasonable alignment, it will cause this exact problem.
Happy HotRodding
 
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I changed the oil to pure ATF to test if the 80-90 was too thick. It still doesn't shift right, so I think we can rule that one out.

How do I check my departure?

If the clutch is dragging wouldn't it move when I depress the clutch? When I put the clutch down it doesn't move at all.
The tranny I believe was bolted to a small block of some sort back in the day. It's bolted to a small block now too, so I think that rules out this possibility. Everything is pretty geometrically sound when it comes to the drive-line (I think).
 
Sitting here just after finishing a final and though: don't bad synchros usually cause grinding? I'll be pulling the transmission next week regardless.... So we'll see what happens
 
Answers in the quote
95dakotadude said:
I changed the oil to pure ATF to test if the 80-90 was too thick. It still doesn't shift right, so I think we can rule that one out.

How do I check my departure?With feeler gauges . you need a helper to depress the pedal, then you stuff two similarly sized feelers in there at about 180* apart.

If the clutch is dragging wouldn't it move when I depress the clutch? When I put the clutch down it doesn't move at all.Can you shift it thru a few gears when the car is stopped and engine running? if yes, then your departure is probably OK. If you can shift into reverse without gear-clash, then you are good to go.
The tranny I believe was bolted to a small block of some sort back in the day. It's bolted to a small block now too, so I think that rules out this possibility. Everything is pretty geometrically sound when it comes to the drive-line (I think) That doesn't count for much; only a runout check will suffice, and you can do that next week, when the trans comes down
.
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95dakotadude said:
Sitting here just after finishing a final and thought: don't bad synchros usually cause grinding? I'll be pulling the transmission next week regardless.... So we'll see what happens
Click to expand...
Synchro rings fail in two ways: worn out and/or not braking
Worn out ones cause grinding because there is zero braking, and they present zero resistance to the advancing slider, and so the slider just smashes into the clutch teeth.
Not braking causes difficult engagement, because the gear is not coming up to speed, but the ring is still trying and so presenting resistance to the advancing slider . You feel that and so you wait. But if it will grind if you force the shift.
 
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AJ/FormS said:
Answers in the quote


Synchro rings fail in two ways: worn out and/or not braking
Worn out ones cause grinding because there is zero braking, and they present zero resistance to the advancing slider, and so the slider just smashes into the clutch teeth.
Not braking causes difficult engagement, because the gear is not coming up to speed, but the ring is still trying and so presenting resistance to the advancing slider . You feel that and so you wait. But if it will grind if you force the shift.
Click to expand...
After you pull the trans check your pilot bushing real well. or for any burs on the input shaft. I had this problem with my Dart. Found the bushing split, dragging the input shaft. Also make sure input shaft is not just a little to long.
 
Alright. Follow up: Fixed it. The shifter was mounted badly and it was noticed that when I shifted up the entire mechanism moved. Couldn't tell from inside the car.

Next problem: the shift pattern is all messed up. Before it was R(top left), 1 (bottom left), 2 (top right), and 3 bottom right. Seems reasonable.
Now the gears are different. I can't remember exactly how it is. The neutral gate on the shifter was set correct as I had a drill bit in it. I'm pretty certain I had the tabs on the tranny the same as they were, but I guess not? How should the tabs on the tranny look when I attached the shifter? As in what orientation?

Thanks
 
AJ/FormS said:
I like first to the left and down, second thru the gate to the right and up, third straight down. That means the levers on the trans point up.
Alaskan_TA nailed it in post #2
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That's how it was. I swear I had the trans in that position when I put them all back in. I'll check it out next week when I'm back home, maybe it was slightly off. Thanks for your input
 
It is common for HH shifter bolts to work loose over time, unless the holes are drilled to exact fit the shanks.
In your pic from post *1, that long adapter plate; does it have a front support or are the two rear bolts all that is holding it on? At the front, I see what appears to be a second plate. Is that a stabilizer for the long plate?
Or is the long plate a 1-piece plate bolted on at both ends?
IMO without a front anchor, that long plate would eventually work loose.
The bolts that hold the shifter to the plate are a common source of aggravation. I use a grade 12bolt hardware with hardened flatwashers and no lock washers, just a bit of loc-tite. The holes should be a very-tight fit to the shanks; if they are not, they will work loose.
 
AJ/FormS said:
It is common for HH shifter bolts to work loose over time, unless the holes are drilled to exact fit the shanks.
In your pic from post *1, that long adapter plate; does it have a front support or are the two rear bolts all that is holding it on? At the front, I see what appears to be a second plate. Is that a stabilizer for the long plate?
Or is the long plate a 1-piece plate bolted on at both ends?
IMO without a front anchor, that long plate would eventually work loose.
The bolts that hold the shifter to the plate are a common source of aggravation. I use a grade 12bolt hardware with hardened flatwashers and no lock washers, just a bit of loc-tite. The holes should be a very-tight fit to the shanks; if they are not, they will work loose.
Click to expand...

The shifter shown in the pic is no longer the one I have. I installed a hurst piece, still on the bar. When I installed the shifter I stupidly only attached the shifter itself with 1 bolt through the handle, and at the time it held. I had 3 other bolts holding a bracket to the shifter on the bottom, but the mechanism could still swing on it (I didn't know). Very hard to explain and I don't currently have pictures. Long story short, the hurst had a swivel action that I didn't see when installing and couldn't see after I installed it.

The bar is bolted front and back on the original tranny mount holes. This thing is solid. The shifter is bolted to the bar with 3 bolts. It also has some plates welded to it now to ensure nothing moves.
 
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