1. Wagon of Death

    Wagon of Death Aussie Barracuda Fisherman

    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    17
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2009
    Location:
    Brisbane,Aust
    Local Time:
    4:44 PM
    Can someone school me on these please? I would have thought the way the bottom control arm is mounted on the pin and the torsion bar in the back of it, that there would be limited movement available in this area? Am I wrong?
     
  2. Oldmanmopar

    Oldmanmopar Going left turning right FABO Gold Member

    Messages:
    7,965
    Likes Received:
    3889
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2009
    Location:
    Danielsville Pa.
    Local Time:
    2:44 AM
    Many claim the the strut holds the lower in place when they use the poly lower bushings on the LCA pins. And then they add a grease fitting on top of that.

    The adjustable struts if used with the OEM rubber bushings work fine, The swivel at the front lets you eliminate the strut rod bushing which limits the forward and rearward movement at the outer side of the LCA. I madethese to eliminate the wheel from moving back while foot braking the car on the start line. While using the brakes to hold the car back it squashes the strut rod bushing. When leaving off the brake the wheel bounces front causing shake. Also the swivel action from the hyme joint lets the suspension travel up and down without resistance for weight transfer.

    Everyone has a different reason but this was the reason for the first design as I copied from Ray Bartons Hemi Dart pictured below. His car was the first to have these on many years ago. After destroying many strut bushings from pressure on the line . He came up with these. Then they were copied , redesigned and sold to make money off of people for street cars. The OEM style hold the suspension tighter when installed with OEM LCA bushings. Remember always use rubber on the lowers and struts. Uppers you can use poly because they are encased in steel.

    These struts we copied from Ray Bartons car will never be used on a daily street driven car. When you redesign the wheel you have to start with a fresh design. Complete suspension made by HDK and others should be considered before you change to different parts for a street car.

    I have been rebuilding and selling OEM rebuilt suspensions for Many , many years and have tried what ever is out there nothing works better then OEM parts on a OEMsuspension for the street. Keeps it all stiff forward and cornering. No forward and rearward movement from pushed in lubed poly bushings. Some of the venders could sell ice to an eskimo. And there are members who defend them because they bought the parts for their car. And you know how that goes . Once you waist your money what you bought is the best. LOL

    Steve 119 - Copy.JPG

    Steve 069.JPG

    Steve 070.JPG

    susp1.jpg

    susp2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • jbc426

      jbc426 Well-Known Member

      Messages:
      1,712
      Likes Received:
      554
      Joined:
      May 30, 2007
      Location:
      West Coast
      Local Time:
      11:44 PM
      I found that the stock strut rods limited the amount of positive caster I was able to get on both my A-Body & E-Body. The maximum I was able to get with stock rubber and components was .5* or so.

      Additionally, I like my cars with some rake to them, that is with the rear end slightly higher than the front end. Consequently, lifting the rear end of the car reduces the amount of positive caster by a bit too.

      Once I fitted adjustable strut rods in my cars, I was able to pull the lower control arm forward just enough to allow 4* to 5* degrees of positive caster without causing any binding.

      The result of doing so was greatly enhanced stability at all speeds, especially on the freeway. It virtually eliminated that vague, wandering feeling at speed I suffered with in these cars for several decades. So, there is that benefit to adjustable strut rods.
       
      • Like Like x 2
      • 72bluNblu

        72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

        Messages:
        10,226
        Likes Received:
        4669
        Joined:
        Nov 28, 2008
        Location:
        NorCal
        Local Time:
        11:44 PM
        The torsion bars can slide in their sockets by about a 1/4" or so. Yes, they'll keep the LCA from sliding out of the K frame entirely, but that amount of movement would cause significant alignment changes.

        As for the way the LCA is mounted on the pin, all that keeps the LCA on the pin with the OE LCA bushings is a friction fit between the rubber bushing and the inner and outer shells. The LCA can come right off the pin if the bushing fails. When I pulled apart the original suspension on my '71 GT the LCA's fell right off the pins after the torsion bars and strut rods were removed, the bushings were shot.

        The strut rods were meant to control the LCA's from moving too far forward or aft under braking, turning, suspension loads etc. The original design uses large rubber bushings, which allows the LCA to flex forward and backward, which results in alignment changes. Particularly caster settings. The original strut rods are a fixed length, so, the large rubber bushing allowed for the factory chassis and suspension tolerances to work. They're a "one size fits most" type deal, some cars they fit well, most cars they fit ok, and on some caused a decent amount of binding. But as long as the factory alignment numbers were reached it didn't matter to the factory.

        The adjustable, heim jointed strut rods solve a lot of these issues. They allow you to tune the length of the strut rod to fit YOUR car. Because they don't have a ton of flex, they reduce caster and alignment changes for a more accurate feel. When polyurethane, polygraphite or Delrin LCA bushings are used adjustable strut rods are really necessary because of how those bushings work- because the bushings are hard, and the LCA pins can spin and slide on the bushings a more accurate LCA position is important. Also, because the hard bushings allow less flex the length of the strut rod is more critical. Eliminating the slop that all those big rubber bushings is good for handling, but it also means the tolerances have to be better and the length of the strut rod has to be more accurate.

        I put more than 70k street miles on the QA1 style adjustable strut rods I have on my Challenger with no issues. I've put nearly 20k street miles on my Duster with adjustable strut rods. The only drawback is that it takes longer to set them up initially, you need to tune the length and check for binding throughout the suspension travel range. Once that's done, they're better in every way. Guys like @autoxcuda and Peter @BergmanAutoCraft have run them on road courses for years. They're a proven improvement over the stock pieces.
         
        • Agree Agree x 3
        • Like Like x 2
        • Disagree Disagree x 1
        • AJ/FormS

          AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s

          Messages:
          17,601
          Likes Received:
          5992
          Joined:
          Jan 19, 2014
          Location:
          South-Central Manitoba,Canada, 900ftelevation
          Local Time:
          1:44 AM
          The OEM strutrods allow the LCA to travel rearward when hitting bumps, softening the hit.As a streeter, this is important to me.

          The SR makes the LCA into a huge lower A-arm, with advantages, over the conventional type of A-arm.
           
          • Agree Agree x 1
          • BergmanAutoCraft

            BergmanAutoCraft FABO Vendor FABO Vendor

            Messages:
            22
            Likes Received:
            41
            Joined:
            Feb 18, 2013
            Location:
            Long Island, NY
            Local Time:
            2:44 AM
            I wouldn't call this a benefit. The strut rod has very little to do with ride quality. Suspension is designed to operate in a specific motion. Allowing the lower arm to move any other way than vertically decreases control. This is why I make delrin lower control arm bushings. The ride is dictated by chassis stiffness first and foremost, then the shock and spring package. The components need to work together. I've been in softly sprung cars that ride terrible, and stiffly sprung cars that ride excellent. Again, it comes down to the combination.
             
            • Agree Agree x 2
            • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
            • Oldmanmopar

              Oldmanmopar Going left turning right FABO Gold Member

              Messages:
              7,965
              Likes Received:
              3889
              Joined:
              Jan 8, 2009
              Location:
              Danielsville Pa.
              Local Time:
              2:44 AM
              You will make up many stories to make yourself feel good that you wasted your money. The OEM bushings in the lowers hold the inner part of the control arm in place. Yes OEM style rip over time and immediately if install improperly. But the Poly bushings are ripped from the sleeve when you install them. And then you are suppose to lube them to increase movement so the don't squeak.

              Do I see a problem with adjustable struts? No as long as they are not used in conjunction with poly bushings. Poly bushings and greasable pins are useless. Anyone with common sense could see that. If your reasoning were correct aluminum or bronze would be an upgrade. I don't think your brain is functioning properly.

              Like I said previously while your foot is on your brake with throttle applied. move the shifter on an automatic from forward to reverse. Watch your lower control arm at the bushing. The poly bushings allows at least 5/8 inch of easy movement. forward and rearward. When a ripped and tore OEM style does this they are shot. Now your going to tell everyone that that same movement with new bushings is OK. Get real!

              Poly bushings and greasable pins are useless. The only reason you would need a greasable pin is to eliminate the squeak and wear from the junk poly bushings.
               
              • Disagree Disagree x 2
              • Oldmanmopar

                Oldmanmopar Going left turning right FABO Gold Member

                Messages:
                7,965
                Likes Received:
                3889
                Joined:
                Jan 8, 2009
                Location:
                Danielsville Pa.
                Local Time:
                2:44 AM
                Recently saw this picture on a post. It is self explanatory. If the pin was in the k-member all the way just think how far off the pin the poly bushing would be. I would say about 5/8 of an inch. LOL

                20200212_191212.jpg

                I am sure there will be a story coming. LMFAO
                 
                • Disagree Disagree x 3
                • Agree Agree x 1
                • 72bluNblu

                  72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

                  Messages:
                  10,226
                  Likes Received:
                  4669
                  Joined:
                  Nov 28, 2008
                  Location:
                  NorCal
                  Local Time:
                  11:44 PM
                  Once again it's clear that you don't understand how a poly bushing is supposed to work, and how that's different from how a rubber bushing functions in the same location. They do the same job, but poly and rubber LCA bushings do the job in very different ways. They don't look the same, they don't have the same number of components, they have different lubrication needs. That's just the difference in the materials and the design of the bushing.

                  The only thing useless here is your commentary. Obviously you've never properly installed a poly bushing, because the issues you're pointing out aren't a problem if the bushing has been properly installed. '

                  No story. That's an improperly installed LCA bushing. The caster setting on that car has to be abysmal. That's what doing it wrong looks like.

                  This is what a properly installed poly bushing should look like. No slop, no room to slide back and forth. The LCA is sucked up against the pin and the K frame. That's what the large shoulder on the poly bushings is for, it's another difference in the design between poly and rubber bushings. Poly bushings do not get installed the same way as rubber bushings, the design is different for a reason, they do not function the same way.

                  This car also has adjustable strut rods that have been adjusted for length, the LCA's move through the entire suspension travel without binding, and the alignment settings have been roughed in and are within spec for a modern, radial tire alignment with about -.75° camber, +5° caster and 1/16" toe in.

                  img_2790_zpsj1t3mbyg-jpg.jpg

                  img_2787_zps3quv7ejw-jpg.jpg
                   
                  • Agree Agree x 2
                  • Oldmanmopar

                    Oldmanmopar Going left turning right FABO Gold Member

                    Messages:
                    7,965
                    Likes Received:
                    3889
                    Joined:
                    Jan 8, 2009
                    Location:
                    Danielsville Pa.
                    Local Time:
                    2:44 AM
                    What holds the bushing from sliding off of the pin? I know your going to say the wheel pushing the outer part of the control arm back which keeps the pin pushed tight in the bushing . So I guess we will just have to dive around with our foot on the brake.. The only thing that would hold that together would be shims in front of the torsion bar clip and rely on the torsion bar to hold the ram in place.

                    The torsion bar is installed loose so it can grow, shrink, move and be different lengths when installed, as it should. Besides that the rear clip wouldn't hold that constant pressure. The OEM bushing is what holds the lower control arm from moving rearward away from the K-member .

                    As I have stated when the OEM bushing is tore It is shot. Because the arm can move front and back. Poly bushings only prevents side to side movement. Not front and back. How can you not see that? You slip them on with lube. What do you think would hold them there. Without the torsion bar in place you could pry them off easily.

                    I don't care how you install them there is no wrong or correct way they just slip on with lube. Now the OEM there is a procedure. If you install the incorrectly and you rip them. If you tighten the pin Nut when not at ride height you rip them. You my friend really do not know what you are talking about.

                    Install poly bushings incorrectly? Give me a brake. Any real man could do it. Lube it up and slip it in. Then you let it shrink and slip back out. LOL
                     
                    • Disagree Disagree x 3
                    • AJ/FormS

                      AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s

                      Messages:
                      17,601
                      Likes Received:
                      5992
                      Joined:
                      Jan 19, 2014
                      Location:
                      South-Central Manitoba,Canada, 900ftelevation
                      Local Time:
                      1:44 AM
                      Ok wait
                      That LCA outboard end, with factory parts, while driving, is moving every which way;forward/backward, upward downward, always in arcs, CONSTANTLY.
                      Where the inner pivot resides is the least of it's problems.
                      Even if you restrict the outter end with a straight fixed-end bar, the LCA in fore and aft is gonna pivot on the end of the strut rod.
                      What is the pivot ratio? Maybe 4,5, or even 6 to one? So if the inboard end moves .3", the outboard might move how much? Say it moves .06" which is 1/16"? What is that in caster? In camber-change? In toe-change? Now compare that to the caster change controlled by the strut-rod traveling up and down in it's own arc..
                      I'll tell you; the only time it matters is in a straight line and cruising on a hard,flat,level,surface. If the wheel is in any other business, the alignment is doing it's own dance, and you are just along for the ride..

                      On the street, in 130,000 odd miles, I haven't noticed a thing. and I have been known to bash it about pretty rough.
                      I have a Poly inner and a hard rubberized whatever on the strut. It's a streeter so ........................
                      The front goes where I point it and that's all I care about at that end.I'm having way more fun steering with the back-end. Street speeds are 30,40 maybe 50 if you're wild. I could care less where that inner pivot calls home.

                      You know it really amuses me; Over the course of 50 years, I have driven several DD A-bodies, with a totally wasted inner factory LCA bushing, or a torn out anchor tunnel, or rotten strut rod bushing and never knew it till it went in for an alignment. I think most of have at one time or another.
                       
                    • 72bluNblu

                      72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

                      Messages:
                      10,226
                      Likes Received:
                      4669
                      Joined:
                      Nov 28, 2008
                      Location:
                      NorCal
                      Local Time:
                      11:44 PM
                      The strut rods locate the LCA fore/aft, not the bushings. Pressure from the tire isn't even a part of it, that wouldn't work for one second with the car in motion. Those directional forces are constantly changing as the suspension works and the wheels turn. There is no need to shim the torsion bar, that's just completely ridiculous.

                      The OEM bushing would tear in a heart beat if it was what kept the LCA from moving backward. Even with all OEM bushings, the strut rod is what keeps the LCA from moving back too far and tearing the OE rubber bushings, that's why the factory put them there. The rubber in the LCA bushings would just rip right out without them. Rubber bushing material does not keep the LCA in place. Think about that, you're asserting that the rubber in the LCA bushing is structural. That's ridiculous.

                      You can absolutely install poly LCA bushings incorrectly. The picture you showed is a perfect example. That LCA is not in the proper location, and likely that's because the strut rod is the wrong length. If the LCA isn't fully seated against the lip on the LCA pin then the installation is wrong. Period. It would be no different than pressing a rubber LCA bushing half way onto the pin and running it like that, it can't function properly that way.

                      There's absolutely a procedure for installing poly LCA bushings, and it's not the same as the OE bushings. They must be lubricated, because unlike the rubber bushings the poly bushing must rotate on the pin so the LCA can move. There's almost no flex like the rubber bushing depends on. Because there's almost no flex, the strut rod length is much more critical. The OE rubber set up is more forgiving, but all that flex is slop in the suspension. Properly installed, adjusted and tuned poly or Delrin bushings will last longer and provide better handling. Installed incorrectly they'll fail just like if you install the rubber bushings improperly.
                       
                      • Agree Agree x 2
                      • Disagree Disagree x 1
                      • Oldmanmopar

                        Oldmanmopar Going left turning right FABO Gold Member

                        Messages:
                        7,965
                        Likes Received:
                        3889
                        Joined:
                        Jan 8, 2009
                        Location:
                        Danielsville Pa.
                        Local Time:
                        2:44 AM
                        I knew your answer before you even made it up. The strut rod holding the outer part of the LCA at the ball joint holds the inner part of the LCA at the K-member. And then putting an adjustable strut with a swivel on it makes things even better. Wake up and smell the coffee. Do you know how many members think your reasoning is idiotic.

                        Take a LCA and slide it on a poly bushing and put it in a vise. Do the same with a OEM style . Record the forward and aft movement by grabbing it by the ball joint area. There is no comparison the thin hard sandwiched rubber between the two sleeves is much stiffer. Remember you have to reuse the sleeves after pressing the OEM rubber out with force. Then you just slip your poly's in with very little force with lube.

                        Or install your lowers in the k-member without the struts and let them hang after tightening the pin. With ploy's they swing right down. OEM style stay where you put them. I have both in the shop. If I get a chance I will take some pictures for you. Maybe even a video if another member comes over.

                        Admit it you wasted your money just because they were easy to put in at your shop . Due to the fact you don't have the tooling and press to do OEM style properly.
                         
                        Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
                        • Disagree Disagree x 2
                        • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
                        • Oldmanmopar

                          Oldmanmopar Going left turning right FABO Gold Member

                          Messages:
                          7,965
                          Likes Received:
                          3889
                          Joined:
                          Jan 8, 2009
                          Location:
                          Danielsville Pa.
                          Local Time:
                          2:44 AM
                          How can you install a poly bushing the wrong way. Slip them up against the arm tight with lube and your done. Install the arm and you are done. after installed with all that lube by your standards they should locate themselves as soon as you tighten the strut. LOL.

                          There is a procedure when installing OEM bushings . The bushings get pressed on the pins then pressed in the arms. Even after they are in the arms the lower control arms must be left loose until the car is on the ground . That puts the bushing in center of rotation so they don't rip from up and down travel. Same as the uppers. When aligning a car they must be tightened while car is at ride height. If you install new uppers ot lowers and let the car down after tightening them to take it for alignment. You ripped them from the sleeves the first dip in the road. Take it home and start over.
                           
                          • Agree Agree x 1
                          • Disagree Disagree x 1
                          • MRGTX

                            MRGTX Well-Known Member

                            Messages:
                            1,852
                            Likes Received:
                            670
                            Joined:
                            Sep 24, 2007
                            Location:
                            CT, USA
                            Local Time:
                            1:44 AM
                            I'm taking in the info and differing views in this thread and I'm grateful that you guys are sharing your opinions and knowledge...

                            Just an unsolicited suggestion- Please just assume the other guy isn't insulting your family lineage just because they disagree.

                            There are often multiple ways to view and address a problem. In the end, one may be the scientifically preferable explanation but that doesn't make every other contribution a waste of time or energy.

                            Christ, we're all fans of these humble, primitive, lovable cars...and driving/tinkering with them how the majority of us prefer to enjoy our free time. that's pretty damn good starting point for common ground. Isn't it?
                             
                            • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
                            • Agree Agree x 1
                            • Oldmanmopar

                              Oldmanmopar Going left turning right FABO Gold Member

                              Messages:
                              7,965
                              Likes Received:
                              3889
                              Joined:
                              Jan 8, 2009
                              Location:
                              Danielsville Pa.
                              Local Time:
                              2:44 AM
                              I agree with everyone having an opinion. What I don't like is vendor's promoting and selling things that they know are not compatible to OEM standards. Then, When they start to wear they come up with a greasable pins to make them even more undesirable. All about the Benjamins.

                              Poly material is no good unless it is sandwiched between two sleeve at the manufacture to prevent friction and wear. I have several 3500 dodge rams . The track bar bushings were getting old. Same style as the LCA on and mopar. I replace the one truck with poly easy to put in slip them in with lube. I bought several sets thinking I would have them on hand for the other trucks and installed them. That same truck one year later needed the track bar bushings. We put rubber back in . Now one of the others are bad. Poly turns to powder over time and is just a gimmick for the street. Are they stiffer in some applications? Yes for a couple races then toss them in the garbage. We used them on many race quads and cars. They don't last but a couple races but are easy to replace in the pits.

                              There are applications where poly is good for anti-vibe. Thats it. Good example is replace your rubber hammer with a poly hammer and see how long it lasts. It will chipp away into pieces in no time.

                              But that is not even the issue with using them in the LCA's. They do not hold the arms in place as the OEM style does. They are ripped before you install them. They have no inner or outer sleeves. And if they did they would chew themselves to pieces in no time without lube and clearance to prevent friction. Rubber can twist and not slide on the sleeves. Poly cannot. So they are made to let he movement occur front and back that OEM style does not unless they are ripped.

                              OEM rubber. style only rip due to age or being tightened in full raised or full lowered position. If tightened in the middle of their travel they last a very long time and prevent forward and rearward movement. Once they are ripped they are the same as a new poly. Junk. They then can move forward and rearward. The strut rod only holds the outer part of the LCA at the wheel.

                              I hope I get this info to a couple of members. At least I have done my part informing some. there are people with common sense. Others will never admit they wasted their money. I am sure I will get another car in here soon that I can get some pictures of. They come here periodically after they can't keep tires from wearing or their cars from wondering.
                               
                              • Disagree Disagree x 1
                              • Oldmanmopar

                                Oldmanmopar Going left turning right FABO Gold Member

                                Messages:
                                7,965
                                Likes Received:
                                3889
                                Joined:
                                Jan 8, 2009
                                Location:
                                Danielsville Pa.
                                Local Time:
                                2:44 AM
                                I saw PST disagreed on how to install a poly bushing . That shows you how much they know about the product they are selling. What is to be done except to slide them on with lube. lube em up Easy on, easy off .

                                The picture above is the pin out of the bushing even though it isn't all the way in the K-member that a member posted on another thread. That is not my picture but another member on this site. I have seen them out of the bushing where the pin is tight. They were out at least 5/8 inch. And if the torsion bar clip wouldn't hold the bar in they would come off the pin totally when using the strut with a swivel.

                                I am not stating something that isn't logical here. Its common sense. Just get under the car and pry the arm back. at the k-member. With the arm just slipped on the pin with lube what in the world would hold it in place. Torsion bar friction? Forward motion?

                                And your poly strut bushings are missing the metal sleeve that prevent them from shearing in the K-member. Unless you added that since the last kit I have seen. Your kits are good . Your poly kits need improvement. You know it and you will never admit that. All about the Benjamins.

                                Do your Poly two piece strut rod bushings have the steel sleeve in them now to prevent them from shearing in the k-member? If so picture one. I have not seen one with it in. You entered this discussion. So lets see your input and your product. Do your poly struts have steel sleeves molded in them or not? I am not talking about the sleevs between the washers. I am talking about the shear sleeves that are molded in the OEM strut rod bushings. I have not seen poly bushings with them in to this day. could be wrong. Show me! If they don't they are useless.
                                 
                                • Disagree Disagree x 1
                                • PST

                                  PST Marketing Manager FABO Vendor

                                  Messages:
                                  869
                                  Likes Received:
                                  347
                                  Joined:
                                  Apr 22, 2009
                                  Location:
                                  Montville, NJ
                                  Local Time:
                                  2:44 AM
                                  We can agree to disagree. I am not here to argue. If the original poster does a quick search through the site he will see your distaste for many types of poly components and other aftermarket parts. I do agree with many of your posts in other areas of this forum and respect your knowledge pertaining to mopars. But there are other time such this that I don't and I feel that we (PST) should not be targeted because we disagree with your opinion but you do that often as seen in other threads

                                  But one point I would like to make, is if lower control arm bushings in poly or polygraphite are so bad and by installing them you run the risk of a control arm slipping or moving forward and aft. Than why is it that there are multiple aftermarket company such us, hotchkis, energy, prothane, proforged, etc still selling them and many drivers in the various pro-touring scene still using them? PST alone has sold 1443 Polygraphite based front end kits in the last 5 years (this does not include the greasable pivot shaft kits) and we are continuing to sell them without incident. We are in the market/hobby to supply performance parts to mopar enthusiasts not parts that inhibit performance or even cause harm or safety.

                                  James
                                  PST


                                  This is how we have had supplied our strut rod bushings for decades
                                  20200227_093217.jpg
                                   
                                  • Like Like x 3
                                  • Agree Agree x 2
                                  • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
                                  • mopowers

                                    mopowers Well-Known Member

                                    Messages:
                                    4,505
                                    Likes Received:
                                    1584
                                    Joined:
                                    Feb 15, 2006
                                    Location:
                                    West Sacramento, CA
                                    Local Time:
                                    11:44 PM
                                    Are the poly strut rod bushings you guys sell the correct thickness? Or do they push the wheel end of the LCA rearward from stock?
                                     
                                  • Oldmanmopar

                                    Oldmanmopar Going left turning right FABO Gold Member

                                    Messages:
                                    7,965
                                    Likes Received:
                                    3889
                                    Joined:
                                    Jan 8, 2009
                                    Location:
                                    Danielsville Pa.
                                    Local Time:
                                    2:44 AM
                                    As seen in the pictures there is no sleeve in the strut. The K member shears the nipple off where it goes through. OEM have a steel sleeve. I am not talking about the sleeve between the washers

                                    And as far as the poly LCA bushings . I don't care if God sells the and how many you all con with the sales. They are not holding the arm in place as they should for street driving. On the track forward motion they will hold the arm against the Pin. On the street they will not hold it under road hazards and different conditions of the road. Your a suspension guy. Think about what the OEM bushing does and tell m your lubed poly bushing will hold the arm on the pin.

                                    I knew you would show pictures of the sleeves between the washers. That is why I mentioned it in the above post. You don't even know how without the sleeve in the bushing itself stops the shear of the protrusion that goes through the K-member. Do you know how many of those Poly strut bushings I take out and the sleeve between the washers is hitting the K-member. The OEM strut rod bushings have a steel sleeve the same diameter of the hole in the K-member to prevent the shear. Don't sell a product you know little about. You get them from the supplier and promote a product you absolutely do not have a clue of what they should do. 65 yrs old been working on mopars my whole life. I know scrap when I see it. You are just like the rest of the venders. Your making money so the product is promoted.

                                    I know guys that ran coil overs with new OEM bushings on Drag cars no torsion bars and they held in place as long as they were not ripped. Would I do that ? No. But do that with your poly bushings and see what happens to the arm where you have it lubed and just slid on the pin. And then sell pins with grease fittings to really lube them up. That arm will be on the ground before the first launch. I'll get some pictures today of the sleeves in OEM struts. Poly does not take a shear like rubber. Squash it in a vise it splits and crumbles. Rubber goes back to its original form

                                    Remember you entered this discussion and gave me a Disagree. Now I am on a mission to finally show you what you don't know. Wait for the pictures to come. I have a lathe being delivered today . After we get it in the shop. I dig out those OEM strut bushings for you that actually have shear sleeves.
                                     
                                    • Disagree Disagree x 2
                                    • PST

                                      PST Marketing Manager FABO Vendor

                                      Messages:
                                      869
                                      Likes Received:
                                      347
                                      Joined:
                                      Apr 22, 2009
                                      Location:
                                      Montville, NJ
                                      Local Time:
                                      2:44 AM
                                      Heaven forbid someone disagrees with you. My apologies

                                      As others members have stated pertaining to what holds a control arm, there is no need for me to reiterate as its been stated multiple times above. The original oe rubber is not designed nor was never designed to hold the control arm in place. The bushing in a single control arm bushing design does not control the arm from moving back and forth; this motion is constrained by the radius rod. Bushings are designed for the sole purpose of linking two moving parts while buffering vibration. Just because one of your drag racing buddies ran a car with c/o with no t bars with rubber control arm bushings does mean it was correct. I have known many people over the years that have done things that were not smart but some how got away unscathed but that does that mean it was safe? No. There has never been a suspension designed that relied on vulcanizing between an inner and out sleeve to hold a control arm in place. You live to argue and in many cases/threads you beat a dead horse past being dead in to glue and many have learned to accept that. But apparently you want to make this personal because we disagree which should not be the case.

                                      James
                                      PST
                                       
                                      Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
                                      • Agree Agree x 2
                                      • Oldmanmopar

                                        Oldmanmopar Going left turning right FABO Gold Member

                                        Messages:
                                        7,965
                                        Likes Received:
                                        3889
                                        Joined:
                                        Jan 8, 2009
                                        Location:
                                        Danielsville Pa.
                                        Local Time:
                                        2:44 AM
                                        I was waiting for the lathe and went to pile of struts and pulle som strut bushings. Her is pictures of the sleeve you don't provide in your poly strut bushings. But you probably have a reason for that. The first pics are of the sleeved style. The last are the hard to find two piece for 72 and back. Your poly strut rod bushings do not have the sleeve built in an they tear apart because poly splits under compression then the inner sleeve wears the K-member after they knock around for a while.


                                        This afternoon I'll grab some a arms off of the shelf and get pictures of poly bushings. You can slide the a-arm off of the pin with barely and force at all. The only thing Poly bushings have going for them is any idiot can install them.


                                        These were not my buddies running coil overs. Its what they did years ago. They would attach safety cables in case the bushings would rip. If you used coil overs you kept and eye on them. My comparison is what the hell would hold the a arm on with lubed poly bushings except the clip at the end of the torsion bar. Really think about what you are saying. OEM bushings are pressed on . Poly bushings are just slipped in place with lube. Get real here. People that wasted their money have to say they are good. Most of your buyers don't have a clue . Same as you. You just know you are making money off of members on this site. You will never admit your product is flawed.

                                        Again I don't see your poly struts with these steel shear sleeves in them. Whats the excuse there. We have thrown many of your ripped strut bushings in the trash can. And we should believe you about your LCA bushing engineering explanation. Really

                                        You could just warn people that they are for racing or off road only and should be checked periodically when used on the street due to the lack of longevity strength because of being rigid. But you would sooner give me a disagree. Only shows how much you care about your customers . Where do you thing I get all my parts. It isn't from pushing a pencil for sales. I am one of the guys that has been doing the work on these cars for years and I am not afraid to open my mouth when I see someone taking advantage of the hobby for profit. I have nothing to gain here. How about you? Can you say the same.

                                        106_0236.JPG

                                        106_0244.JPG

                                        106_0243.JPG
                                         
                                      • PST

                                        PST Marketing Manager FABO Vendor

                                        Messages:
                                        869
                                        Likes Received:
                                        347
                                        Joined:
                                        Apr 22, 2009
                                        Location:
                                        Montville, NJ
                                        Local Time:
                                        2:44 AM
                                        Well I am pleased that we do agree to a point in some respect (maybe not terminology wise) as you stated in your post above "Poly bushings are just slipped in place with lube" .......... I would agree the bushings are lubed and pushed using a press or vise to press into place. Are they interference fit like an OE rubber? No they are not but they do take more pressure than just "slipping on" as you stated. As the bushing does not hold the lower control arm in place the strut rod does.

                                        "People that wasted their money have to say they are good. Most of your buyers don't have a clue . Same as you. You just know you are making money off of members on this site"

                                        I do feel bad for the members of the forum and I apologize for his statement here as many of you are educated cars guys that do have a clue and are a pleasure to work with. Many are mechanics by trade or weekend gearheads and understand the workings of their vehicle and the improved products we and others provide the hobby. Just because we do not agree with your train of thought makes us or them wrong.


                                        Strut rod bushings

                                        "Again I don't see your poly struts with these steel shear sleeves in them."

                                        Nor do I see rubber bushings now a days with the vulcanized sleeve. The design we offer once installed will not shear. Even the aftermarket rubbers from the likes of moog do not have the steel sleeve vulcanized into the rubber like the one you picture and they work flawlessly just as ours once installed and properly torqued.

                                        The bigger issue here is that you are unable to except other peoples opinions and that yours is the right way and can be the only way. We are on this forum to help each other and provide information and feedback on our own personal experience and many have used poly without incident. This is not a one way street its a open forum. If you want a one way street start a blog.

                                        And if you are insinuating that I am just a pencil pusher you are welcome to stop by my shop anytime you want to check out my personal builds.

                                        Thanks
                                        James
                                        PST
                                         
                                        • Agree Agree x 3
                                        • 72bluNblu

                                          72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

                                          Messages:
                                          10,226
                                          Likes Received:
                                          4669
                                          Joined:
                                          Nov 28, 2008
                                          Location:
                                          NorCal
                                          Local Time:
                                          11:44 PM
                                          Ok, this is the last time I'm going to address Oldmanmopar directly. I know I won't convince him that he's wrong, but hopefully other members here will be able to understand how a poly or Delrin LCA bushing works differently than a rubber bushing. And why that isn't at all a problem (and can in fact be an advantage) as long as you take care of the poly or Delrin bushings according to their material and design.

                                          This will be long, because I'm going to take each and every one of oldmanmopar's assertions and explain why his logic is flawed. I'm not going to call him any names, because I know he calls me names because he can't put together a logical argument.

                                          I've successfully installed and used poly and Delrin bushings for years and tens of thousands of miles. I know they work, and I know that properly installed and maintained they work better than rubber. That's not my opinion, that's a fact, they're on my car right now and I use it everyday. I've never replaced a failed poly bushing- I've never had to because none of mine have ever failed.

                                          So here your claim is that the LCA is not held in place from moving fore/aft on the LCA pin by the strut rod, but is somehow held in place by the rubber in the OE rubber bushing. Rubber isn't structural so that's pretty much impossible, but let's pretend.

                                          The LCA is a rigid bar. The strut rod passes through a sleeve in the LCA and then is tightened on the back side, which pushes the LCA against a shoulder on the strut rod. That connection fixes the fore/aft movement of the LCA to the strut rod. In order for the LCA to move fore and aft at the other end like you're describing one of a few things would have to happen -

                                          1. The LCA would have to move around on the strut rod at the connection- that movement is minimal, the strut rod is a slip fit on the LCA and then is held fixed between the nut on the strut rod and the shoulder on the other side
                                          2. The strut rod would have to flex. That's possible with rubber strut rod bushings- but with an adjustable strut rod, and the pivot at the heim being at an angle to the LCA, there's very little movement there in that direction. Add a very stiff LCA bushing and there's little lateral flex at that end. So the strut rod itself would have to bend
                                          3. The LCA would have to flex on the LCA bushing- again, some movement there is possible with rubber LCA bushings. But with poly, and even more so with Delrin, there's little to no flex there.

                                          So what does that mean? If the LCA can't flex at the strut rod joint, or at the LCA joint, then it can't move backward independent of the strut rod. It's positively located fore/aft by the strut rod.

                                          This is a false example. There's no accounting for the strut rod. The rubber mounted LCA will flex back and forth on the bushing. The poly mounted LCA will not flex on the bushing, but will slide up and down on the pin. That movement is eliminated by the presence of the strut rod, as stated above.

                                          You wouldn't run your rubber LCA bushings without a strut rod would you? Of course not, they'd tear. That's the comparison you're making there, and it's not relevant to the assembled suspension system.

                                          This is actually a perfect example of WHY people use poly and Delrin LCA bushings. Yes, the poly and delrin bushings allow the LCA the hang down. They offer no resistance to the movement of the LCA. The rubber, on the other hand, holds the LCA up because the rubber has to flex for the LCA to move. That resistance keeps the LCA from moving freely- it's basically binding that's built into the factory bushings. The LCA being able to move up and down without resistance provides better feel and suspension response.

                                          I have the tools and tooling to install and remove OE bushings. In fact I've done it several times, just not on my cars. I have a 20 ton press and a tap to fit inside the outer LCA shells. I needed that to install my current set of BAC delrin bushings, because the delrin LCA bushings do not use the old outer shells. You can see my removal of the OEM bushings and installation of the Delrin bushings here. My "new" '74 Duster- or why I need a project like a hole in the head Along with all of my tools to do it. Again, you're making false assumptions here, and obviously aren't familiar with how to install these parts.

                                          Hey look, there's the press I'm using to remove a OEM outer sleeve
                                          img_4322-jpg.jpg

                                          Hey look, there's the old outer sleeve that's been pressed out and the tap I used to do it
                                          img_4324-jpg.jpg

                                          Hey look, here's me pressing in the new Delrin LCA bushings. Oh, yeah you need a press to install those, they don't just slip in.
                                          img_4327-jpg.jpg

                                          Some of this is right, once the bushings are installed in the LCA and the LCA installed on the pin they should be tight.

                                          But they are NOT self locating. If the strut rod isn't the right length, the LCA will not stay tight against the shoulder on the pin. If you use strut rods that are too long, they will push the LCA and bushing backward on the pin like in the picture you posted earlier. That is exactly how you install the bushings the wrong way, it's an improper installation.

                                          This is where you're fundamentally wrong about how the poly and delrin bushings function. With the OEM bushings all of the up/down movement of the LCA is flex in the rubber, nothing spins or slides. When the rubber tears, the LCA can spin, slide, and flex on the pin even more because the rubber is no longer intact.

                                          With a poly or delrin bushing, the LCA bushing is DESIGNED to spin on the LCA pin. But unlike a failed rubber bushing, there's is very little flex in a poly bushing. And almost no flex in a delrin bushing. So there is no flex and slop like there is with a failed rubber bushing. The pin is held tightly in the bushing radially, and the bushing spins on the pin. As it is designed to.

                                          Poly only "turns to powder" if it is not properly lubricated. There's really only two possibilities for your failed bushings. One is that those bushings were just defective. But since you claim that you have had multiple failures of different bushings, that's unlikely.

                                          The common denominator is that you're the one maintaining them. Which points directly at improper maintenance. Sorry, but as I've said I have had great success using poly bushings for over a decade now, and tens of thousands of miles in multiple applications. If none of your poly bushings last, you're the problem. That's not me making it personal, those are just the facts. Plenty of people use poly bushings with great success. If you've never used one with success, you're clearly doing it wrong.

                                          Every single one of your concerns here is based on your fundamental misunderstanding of how the poly bushing works. They are not the same as the rubber bushings. Totally different material, totally different design, totally different function. You can not make a comparison to a failed rubber bushing, there is no parallel between the two.

                                          I already addressed this. This picture depicts an IMPROPER INSTALLATION.
                                          20200212_191212-jpg.jpg

                                          The bushing is NOT tight against the shoulder of the LCA pin. That means that the strut rod is too long, not installed, or not installed properly. This is the wrong way to install poly bushings, and a perfect example of why adjustable strut rods should be used when they're installed.

                                          Also, I would appreciate if you linked the source thread for this picture. That member needs to correct this, as that's a catastrophic failure waiting to happen.

                                          You are stating something that isn't logical. You can't pry the LCA back out of the K frame if the strut rod is the correct length. What you're describing is not possible if the poly or delrin bushings have been properly installed and the strut rod is the proper length.

                                          In fact, if you CAN do what you described and pry the LCA back on the LCA pin while the suspension is fully assembled it proves you've done the installation incorrectly, and something needs to be adjusted.


                                          PST is a pretty great resource for the members of this site. Not just with parts, but clearly with knowledge of how they're used. I don't agree with 100% of the things I've seen PST post here, and I don't use all of their products either. But clearly they have a pretty good idea of what they're talking about, and compared to most sellers they're very knowledgeable about the parts they offer.

                                          Firm Feel is also a great resource. I'm mentioning them here because of the complete BS that's been posted about their greaseable LCA pins. They make the pins, they do not manufacture poly or Delrin LCA bushings. They make the greaseable pins because they work, and they're a great way to properly maintain the bushings that their customers use. Not so they can sell bushings. Firm Feel has been making parts for handling mopars for DECADES now. Their knowledge and experience is bar none. They were literally one of the first companies to make parts for handling mopars, and their parts are proven in both performance and durability. They were literally the only game in town for a long time, and still compete with the big names like Hotchkis. That's saying something.

                                          Hopefully this explains how these parts work for people so they can make an informed decision. And I'm not saying that rubber LCA bushings don't have their use, they absolutely do. Poly bushings aren't necessary for every build, there's nothing wrong with that. Delrin bushings aren't right for every build either. But if they're properly installed and maintained, they work VERY well, and will outlast and outperform rubber LCA bushings.
                                           
                                          Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
                                          • Thanks! Thanks! x 2
                                          • Agree Agree x 1
                                          • Oldmanmopar

                                            Oldmanmopar Going left turning right FABO Gold Member

                                            Messages:
                                            7,965
                                            Likes Received:
                                            3889
                                            Joined:
                                            Jan 8, 2009
                                            Location:
                                            Danielsville Pa.
                                            Local Time:
                                            2:44 AM
                                            You forgot that your adjustable strut has a swivel built on it. And you actually believe your self that the strut rod holds the LCA in place on the K-member due to stiffness . Your making a fool of yourself with some of your comments . Do you press the pin in the bushing and keep them lubed up? is there room for lube. LOL. Doesn't most of the kits require the outer sleeve and inner sleeve to be kept in place. How about those poly strut rod bushings with no shear sleeves. I guess they worked just fine on your car also.

                                            You know? Back 10's and thousand miles ago before you they sold adjustable struts . You can love them all you want. To me and many others that have a grasp on reality they are scrap for street use. I have just seen to many cars come here with problems and not because they were installed wrong. I didn't install any of them. Every one but you installs them improperly. You know "They pick things up ! they put things down" Again they are ripped before you put them in. Figure it out.

                                            Did you ever drive your car on Pa. rolling hills with all the pot holes we have in the north east. They don't stay in place the arm moves away from the K-member.
                                             
                                          1. This site uses cookies to help personalize content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
                                            By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.