yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Here is one intake port that I just finished. First burr finished port I’ll put my name on. Every try before this was a GIANT suckfest and looked way worse that this does. I’m going to send this.
AG burr finish
- Thread starter yellow rose
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autoxcuda
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what was the method you used to get that rippled finish?
you mentioned using a bent burr before..
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Here is what I used to port and then finish. The burr in the grinder is bent about .125 and it is a gradual bend starting about 2 inches from the grinder end of the burr. Other two aren’t bent.
To get that finish I bent up over the years probably 20 burrs. Some of them I still have. May have to go through them and maybe take some of the bend out and see how they work.
Once you get a burr that is bent that you feel comfortable with, you control the finish with burr speed and pressure. You have to let the burr chatter off the port, but it can’t be so bouncy it will rattle your teeth out. And I found that I need the burr a little faster than it probably should be turning, and then use pressure to control the burr.
I wrecked a bunch of burrs and ports learning this to the point I feel comfortable selling it. Wish we could do an A-B-A test to back this finish up, but I’m pretty sure I have it damn close. At least I hope for Scody21 it is. This stuff is his...so...it’s either the pent house of the out house for me. I have no in between.
The biggest thing is just to GENTLY bend a burr and measure the runout and then go test it. Use burr speed and pressure to get the finish you want.
I do know that Larry Meaux (if you don’t know who he is look him up and read anything g you can that he writes if you are into this stuff) said he has yet to find a finish too rough. Chad Speier will not do an intake manifold without a burr finish. Speier says he has went to the track with a customer, made some passes, pulled the intake right there, burred it up and put it right back on and the car was quicker. How much I forget, but it wasn’t some .001 number.
Both of those guys have reputations for making power and setting records. In fact, Darin Morgan (again, if someone doesn’t know who he is, look him up...and I just posted a link to a webinar he gave Wednesday in the racers forum) says they have been using the burr finish since the 80’s and when you have 3 guys with records like that, I have to give it a shot.
In fact, Darin says he uses a burr finish on EFI systems. It’s in the webinar, so if you want to know what exactly he said I posted the link.
moper
Well-Known Member
I talked to Larry years ago after I bought Pipemax. I haven’t done any real smoothing in years...lol. Leave the burr finish in the port, and light smoothing in the long side of the bowl is it.
gregcon
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I try to avoid using air grinder if possible.....the noise and mess does me in. Plus, it's probably expensive to run.
I used to use a Makita electric grinder....then it broke and I bought a newer, bigger Makita that has the dial for variable speed. That works very well, but the grinder has two flaws - it's big AF and they don't have a lock on the switch.
When I get around to it, I plan to look for a high quality, smaller grinder with variable speed and a lock.
As for burr finishes....I have no real data on how they perform on a short term race engine. But especially on the exhaust side, I like a smooth finish to lessen carbon buildup. If I were a little more inclined, I'd get the ex ports Teflon coated, even.
I used to use a Makita electric grinder....then it broke and I bought a newer, bigger Makita that has the dial for variable speed. That works very well, but the grinder has two flaws - it's big AF and they don't have a lock on the switch.
When I get around to it, I plan to look for a high quality, smaller grinder with variable speed and a lock.
As for burr finishes....I have no real data on how they perform on a short term race engine. But especially on the exhaust side, I like a smooth finish to lessen carbon buildup. If I were a little more inclined, I'd get the ex ports Teflon coated, even.
Do you put valves in when you do the chambers. If you don’t give it a try as then you can get right up
To the seat with zero worry of hitting the seat.
PRH
Well-Known Member
Speier:
Meaux:
Meaux:
I think a lot of the ability to do a finish like that is the quality of aluminum. The heads made by Coronavirus Chinaman seem like the aluminum is harder than higher dollar heads.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I’m thinking my junk will always be slow because I’m not making my stuff look like that. No way no how.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
LOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOL...I was there but I can’t ignore it any more. These guys have been doing it with success for years and years. It is FUGLY for sure, but like they say...you can’t see it when it’s bolted on.
I may dig around and see if I have a burr that is more coarse than the one I’m using now. I think I do. I wouldn’t mind getting it rougher if I can hold onto the grinder.
I learned a lot of what I know by testing and looking at pictures of other guys work. Many of those mentioned above and their work sure as heck didn’t look like that. When photobucket got greedy years ago it practically ruined this great post but if you weed through it you can still find some beautiful work. Photobucket sucks.
Cylinder Head Show and Tell
Cylinder Head Show and Tell
PRH
Well-Known Member
“Back in the day”, before the burr finish craze........ Larry Meaux’s work was like art.
On the stuff I do that gets the sand rolled finish...... what his stuff looked like is more or less what I was aiming for.
On the stuff I do that gets the sand rolled finish...... what his stuff looked like is more or less what I was aiming for.
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yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
LOL...when I first tried the burr finish on my junk I just could not stomach what it looked like. In fact, when I tested my W5 junk with the tunnel ram on the flow bench, I lost quite a bit of flow using the burr finish. IIRC it was down 20 CFM over a 60 grit paper roll finish.
Also, IIRC the tunnel ram with the 60 grit finish was much more quiet on the bench. That was 21 years ago and I didn’t keep the notes on that stuff. I kick myself for letting that go with the bench, and I kick myself for getting rid of my flowbench.
I know I played with a burr finish again as I started moving the nozzles up from the valve cover rail. I just couldn’t get my head around that finish and the noise it made on the bench.
I’m going to try and get some pictures that are closer to the finish so I can see how close I am to CS and LM.
Interesting enough, looking at the picture of that tunnel ram by LM, it appears that surface is more divot that a raised burr. I remember getting that look years ago with a much more coarse burr that was bigger in diameter and it was a cylinder shape with a radius on the end so it doesn’t dig ditches.
At times I’m thinking it’s not what the burr finish looks like, just that you run a burr over it. Then again, LM said the rougher the better, and Darin Morgan said you can’t get it too rough which is mind boggling to me.
And now I’ve talked myself back into the corner of indecision...I hate that. I usually trust my gut but this has me baffled. Do I try and make it a bit rougher, or do I say screw it and paper roll it????
pishta
I know I'm right....
I read a car craft article about a pock marked combustion chamber finish. like the finish of a golf ball done by a nail set or something. It was totally opposite of what that rag had been preaching for years (port and polish, knock down high points for pre-ignition reduction, etc) that it took me by surprise that they would even publish that. Check out this fish scale finish on youtube, Veicomer does alot of this stuff.
Scody21
Just send it
I say to make it look like the moon, with a ton of craters and pass on the roll. Let’s see what happens when we send it...
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
That video was pretty interesting. I’ve never flowed that head, but it was pretty quiet. He also opened both valves together, which is the correct way to do that. Some open one at a time, but that changes flow. I have to assume that the carbs would go in between the head and the velocity stack arrangement he has. It would be interest to see that same test with the carbs in there. Or...just thinking...it’s probably EFI and he may be setting the injectors above the stacks or just below them. That would make sense as to why there weren’t carbs in there.
I need to brush up on my 4 banger stuff.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Well, you got guts...ok...I’ll send it rough. I want to be standing there when they hit the bench. I know Dan won’t care. I really don’t care about the flow numbers as much as I care about how the ports sounds. If it sounds like garbage I’ll probably go sit in the corner of the shop and wet myself while sucking my thumb. At that point, that will be the only thing left to do. I guess I could crap myself. So I do have that option.
Scody21
Just send it
Whatever happens there’ll be video...
PRH
Well-Known Member
Several of the builds I was the happiest with got the sand rolled finish.
It worked before, I figure it’ll work again.
The highest HP motors I’ve done had cnc’d ports with the ridges left in them....... they were also the biggest ci.
Overall, I think it’s fairly obvious that the port design and flow will ultimately have much more of an impact on the power than whether or not the port walls are smooth or rough.
A burr finish isn’t going to save a crappy port....... nor is having it polished to a high sheen.
At one point during a discussion on this subject over on YB, Chris Uratchko said his best build had smooth ports.
That guy does some damn impressive builds.
It worked before, I figure it’ll work again.
The highest HP motors I’ve done had cnc’d ports with the ridges left in them....... they were also the biggest ci.
Overall, I think it’s fairly obvious that the port design and flow will ultimately have much more of an impact on the power than whether or not the port walls are smooth or rough.
A burr finish isn’t going to save a crappy port....... nor is having it polished to a high sheen.
At one point during a discussion on this subject over on YB, Chris Uratchko said his best build had smooth ports.
That guy does some damn impressive builds.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
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