Almost time for the machinist!

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When you're there dropping off the block and actually putting money in his hand LOL ask him about a balance job? I know you keep saying Streetcar, but on the other hand Port matching and balancing what concerns and also questions like will .010 get me more power? Leads me to believe you are going to want better performance out of this. And maybe even more than a bit.. and let's not completely fool ourselves and thinking that you wouldn't have a big Grand smile on your face if you put the happy pedal down and see nothing but a massive smoke show behind you..
 
I made the statement about a balance job coming the OP way based on the the following impression I got: the crank is a reman with factory original balance of some unknown factory calibrated bobweight, rods are unknowns, from the factory they vary widely in what they weigh, the pistons are the more than likely the most consistent piece of the puzzle, +/- 2 grams of each other or less out of the box. I just looked at the collection of parts from "here", "there", and "else ware" and thought that a balance job would be a good idea

You are correct that it is not, a must do event to balance; I have assembled engines with out balancing ( what does a 400M ford know ), my mean teen experiment ( just to see what I could get away with, more than once bounced it off a 7000 rpm chip )........the OP is port matching, is/was concerned about his oil pump ( was pumping oil before ), people are asking about torque plates ( post 14 ), he is incrementally climbing the ladder to more performance, I see a balance job as one of the rungs of the ladder. Again you are correct it is not a must , gotta do event.
 
JBurch said:
I made the statement about a balance job coming the OP way based on the the following impression I got: the crank is a reman with factory original balance of some unknown factory calibrated bobweight, rods are unknowns, from the factory they vary widely in what they weigh, the pistons are the more than likely the most consistent piece of the puzzle, +/- 2 grams of each other or less out of the box. I just looked at the collection of parts from "here", "there", and "else ware" and thought that a balance job would be a good idea

You are correct that it is not, a must do event to balance; I have assembled engines with out balancing ( what does a 400M ford know ), my mean teen experiment ( just to see what I could get away with, more than once bounced it off a 7000 rpm chip )........the OP is port matching, is/was concerned about his oil pump ( was pumping oil before ), people are asking about torque plates ( post 14 ), he is incrementally climbing the ladder to more performance, I see a balance job as one of the rungs of the ladder. Again you are correct it is not a must , gotta do event.
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Yeah my comment came from also noticing the ladder LOL.. I will be curious to see what side of the ladder he's on after a face-to-face with the machine shop? My ladder got bigger and wider with big furry cushions to grab onto! LOL then the end a balanced stroker blah blah blah LOL...
 
j par said:
Yeah my comment came from also noticing the ladder LOL.. I will be curious to see what side of the ladder he's on after a face-to-face with the machine shop? My ladder got bigger and wider with big furry cushions to grab onto! LOL then the end a balanced stroker blah blah blah LOL...
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Ya a +.030 over .010/.010 turn on the crank can turn into a larger project.
 
OK, I see the viewpoint. Kevin has already come up a long ladder already.... from just re-ringing a 318 to this more complete rebuild of a 360. IIRC, the cam plans are not for peak HP but for mid range and wide torque etc. So RPM's and balance is not as critical as in a lot of other apps. And then there is the budget.... which has already been busted a few times I do believe.....

340's from the factory romped and revved and rowdied around all over the place with the level of balance that this should achieve without any further attention. So IMHO it is quite adequate. I missed the torque plates part.... raced my rally engines hard for many, many thousands of miles without ever using one. Could have been better no doubt but when racing on a schedule, you gotta put it together sometimes and go. Each and every HP is not the be-all and end-all in many cases, nor do I consider not-using torque plate to be sloppy work.
 
nm9stheham said:
OK, I see the viewpoint. Kevin has already come up a long ladder already.... from just re-ringing a 318 to this more complete rebuild of a 360. IIRC, the cam plans are not for peak HP but for mid range and wide torque etc. So RPM's and balance is not as critical as in a lot of other apps. And then there is the budget.... which has already been busted a few times I do believe.....

340's from the factory romped and revved and rowdied around all over the place with the level of balance that this should achieve without any further attention. So IMHO it is quite adequate. I missed the torque plates part.... raced my rally engines hard for many, many thousands of miles without ever using one. Could have been better no doubt but when racing on a schedule, you gotta put it together sometimes and go. Each and every HP is not the be-all and end-all in many cases, nor do I consider not-using torque plate to be sloppy work.
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I agree with the torque plate use but only if cost is a factor. I can't find my machine shop menu for "hone with a torque plate" charge. I think it was $25 or so but I can't remember for sure. It does make a difference for ring seal and power output but not enough that you could notice. May be a couple of ponies. Here's a interesting link to a article and some photos of the bore before and the bores after using a torque plate. I would if it was in my budget and not $100 or more.
torque plate honing makes a differance | Grumpys Performance Garage
 
nm9stheham said:
OK, I see the viewpoint. Kevin has already come up a long ladder already.... from just re-ringing a 318 to this more complete rebuild of a 360. IIRC, the cam plans are not for peak HP but for mid range and wide torque etc. So RPM's and balance is not as critical as in a lot of other apps. And then there is the budget.... which has already been busted a few times I do believe.....

340's from the factory romped and revved and rowdied around all over the place with the level of balance that this should achieve without any further attention. So IMHO it is quite adequate. I missed the torque plates part.... raced my rally engines hard for many, many thousands of miles without ever using one. Could have been better no doubt but when racing on a schedule, you gotta put it together sometimes and go. Each and every HP is not the be-all and end-all in many cases, nor do I consider not-using torque plate to be sloppy work.
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This is exactly what happened lol nms knows the story Haha.
As far as the latter yes I am trying to get every bit of horsepower I can within reason within my budget. My budget started at like 150 bucks and now I'm 1500 in and don't even have a engine yet Haha. I am trying to do the little things that don't cost no more or not much more to squeeze everything I can out within reason. At the end of the day yes it is a street car and I want to drive it without overheating or race fuel, for many many years to come.
That is why I decided to invest the extra money into the crank and bearings. I had originally planned on just replacing the bearings which is like 70 bucks but the the crank had some scoring and I was advised to turn it after talking to the machinist he was gonna charge 100-150 plus 70 for the bearings so the 180 remain crank just made more sense to me!
I will talk to him about balance and see what he thinks I was hoping to get around it for the budget reason. I plan on doing all the reassembling stuff myself to save money. If he was to balance it I'd have to pay for that and the balance itself. I can only guess but probably close to 500 more?
If the balance Is an issue its gonna wear out my engine in 1000 miles then yes I will save up longer and spend the money. But if I can have a safe reliable dependable engine for years down the road without then I'd like to save that money. Haha
 
I get budget, I'm not afraid to say I'm a cheap SOB, If I don't have to spend money I won't; that is how my "mean teen" came to being........

If I had a choice between plate hone and balance, I would balance..........people were going fast before plate honing came to be; balancing makes life easier on the bearings

If you are of a mind to, you could balance your assembly yourself........the cost of balancing is mostly; other than mallory IF YOU GO THAT ROUTE; the labor to equalize the weight of all the pieces. With a digital kitchen scale that reads to .1gram, you can equalize your rods and pistons, then give the shop the bob weight number and your crank, damper, flex plate and they can balance your crank

Good luck
 
Very good advice in this thread. I hope you enjoy your first build and avoid the mistakes most of us have made with our first build. keep doing your research and make use of the advice. Good Luck and have fun.
 
fishmens67 said:
Very good advice in this thread. I hope you enjoy your first build and avoid the mistakes most of us have made with our first build. keep doing your research and make use of the advice. Good Luck and have fun.
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Yes very good advice I'm loving this thread!! Thank you guys for the help and input. Iv always been the type of person to research everything I hate going into something blind!
 
JBurch said:
I get budget, I'm not afraid to say I'm a cheap SOB, If I don't have to spend money I won't; that is how my "mean teen" came to being........

If I had a choice between plate hone and balance, I would balance..........people were going fast before plate honing came to be; balancing makes life easier on the bearings

If you are of a mind to, you could balance your assembly yourself........the cost of balancing is mostly; other than mallory IF YOU GO THAT ROUTE; the labor to equalize the weight of all the pieces. With a digital kitchen scale that reads to .1gram, you can equalize your rods and pistons, then give the shop the bob weight number and your crank, damper, flex plate and they can balance your crank

Good luck
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Sorry to sound stupid. But what is the plate hone and what's the difference between that and just a regular hone?
The machinist priced the block for me he said that includes cleaning boring and honing. He didn't say what kind of hone?
 
Not at all stupid, it's a valid real question......plate honing, or AKA torque plate honing is bolting a plate to the block to simulate the stresses that will distort the cylinder bores when the cylinder head is bolted down. The purpose is to improve ring seal for more power

Just remember, when all the 340's, 440's, Hemi's were built they WERE NOT PLATE HONED OUT OF THE FACTORY when new and nobody ever said they were slow.........
 
JBurch said:
Not at all stupid, it's a valid real question......plate honing, or AKA torque plate honing is bolting a plate to the block to simulate the stresses that will distort the cylinder bores when the cylinder head is bolted down. The purpose is to improve ring seal for more power

Just remember, when all the 340's, 440's, Hemi's were built they WERE NOT PLATE HONED OUT OF THE FACTORY when new and nobody ever said they were slow.........
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Good explanation. And exactly the point as far as street use goes... If you are taking an engine and going straight out of the box into a racing situation, then the torque plates become almost mandatory for a serious racing effort. But cylinder bores used for the street don't have that level of issue.

And neither was the factory balance any better than +/- 20 or 30 grams! So that is the same logic as for them going fast as-is.

Total balance costs are in the range of $300-500, for the shop to do it all. A crank-only balance can be at or under $100, but one poster here (in the NE USA) could not get a crank-only balance for less than $275. So you just gotta ask. If you do the crank-only, then you need to give them a bobweight, which can be computed from your part weights when properly done.

Balancing is a 2 part process. Part 1 is to match the rod end weights and piston weights to each other. This takes care of one particular balance factor. This can be done at home, but the one part that is not straightforward is to weigh the small and big ends of the rods and match them to each other. That takes a fixture; I have built my own to do that. It is not rocket science but it has to be done with care to get accuracy.

A bobweight is computed from the resulting parts weights from step 1. Part 2 is where the crank is balanced to the resulting bobweight; that takes care of a completely different balance factor.

So you can do one or the other or both and improve balance.
 
Another question. Do I need to remove the distributor gear bushing for the machinist? If so how do I get it out? And for that back in?
 
nm9stheham said:
Good explanation. And exactly the point as far as street use goes... If you are taking an engine and going straight out of the box into a racing situation, then the torque plates become almost mandatory for a serious racing effort. But cylinder bores used for the street don't have that level of issue.

And neither was the factory balance any better than +/- 20 or 30 grams! So that is the same logic as for them going fast as-is.

Total balance costs are in the range of $300-500, for the shop to do it all. A crank-only balance can be at or under $100, but one poster here (in the NE USA) could not get a crank-only balance for less than $275. So you just gotta ask. If you do the crank-only, then you need to give them a bobweight, which can be computed from your part weights when properly done.

Balancing is a 2 part process. Part 1 is to match the rod end weights and piston weights to each other. This takes care of one particular balance factor. This can be done at home, but the one part that is not straightforward is to weigh the small and big ends of the rods and match them to each other. That takes a fixture; I have built my own to do that. It is not rocket science but it has to be done with care to get accuracy.

A bobweight is computed from the resulting parts weights from step 1. Part 2 is where the crank is balanced to the resulting bobweight; that takes care of a completely different balance factor.

So you can do one or the other or both and improve balance.
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I'm gonna send you a PM shortly!
 
nm9stheham said:
Total balance costs are in the range of $300-500, for the shop to do it all. A crank-only balance can be at or under $100, but one poster here (in the NE USA) could not get a crank-only balance for less than $275. So you just gotta ask. If you do the crank-only, then you need to give them a bobweight, which can be computed from your part weights when properly done.
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That would be me. Take advantage of your machine shop prices in your area. They are expensive in the Boston area and few (reputable) shops left.
 
dartfreak75 said:
Another question. Do I need to remove the distributor gear bushing for the machinist? If so how do I get it out? And for that back in?
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yes, you need to remove the intermediate shaft. There's a bushing in the block that costs a couple of bucks and should be replaced. I took a block to a non Mopar machinist when I was a kid and they processed the whole block and never touched it. I beat on that 340 for years after that so I guess it didn't cause catastrophic failure, but I wouldn't recommend leaving it in.
 
BrianT said:
yes, you need to remove the intermediate shaft. There's a bushing in the block that costs a couple of bucks and should be replaced. I took a block to a non Mopar machinist when I was a kid and they processed the whole block and never touched it. I beat on that 340 for years after that so I guess it didn't cause catastrophic failure, but I wouldn't recommend leaving it in.
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Yea the shaft is out! I was just talking about the bushing itself.
 
I would ask your machinist about replacing the bushing. If he looks at you with a blank stare, start shopping for another machinist.
 
dartfreak75 said:
Yea the shaft is out! I was just talking about the bushing itself.
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Yes, remove the bushing, just flip the block up side down, with the rear main cap off, reach down thru the block with a punch and tap the bushing out. After everything is all clean, spic-an-span, you can put in a new bushing......you have 2 choices for bushings, OEM style that needs to be burnished at the time of installation to "size" the ID and swedge the bushing into place ( if you are on good terms with your local dealer you might be able to borrow their tool ), or triple r knows the p# of the tap in and go non burnishing required bushing
 
JBurch said:
Yes, remove the bushing, just flip the block up side down, with the rear main cap off, reach down thru the block with a punch and tap the bushing out. After everything is all clean, spic-an-span, you can put in a new bushing......you have 2 choices for bushings, OEM style that needs to be burnished at the time of installation to "size" the ID and swedge the bushing into place ( if you are on good terms with your local dealer you might be able to borrow their tool ), or triple r knows the p# of the tap in and go non burnishing required bushing
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Thanks that sounds good Thank you.
Hey @RustyRatRod I need a part number ole buddy! Lol
 
Remove the bushing.. the hot tanking will probably ruin it anyway.

PN P1737725 Mopar Performance

And heavy duty intermediate shaft P3690715.... another 'good-too-replace' part to go along with the new oil pump. Sometimes the old shafts get the corners worn on the hex end and can turn in the pump hex under high loads. When that happens, oil pressure drops or goes to 0.
 
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