an electrical nightmare , please help , 1972 dart

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moparjon

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not sure at this point if its more than one problem but this is so far : 1972 dart 318 auto daily driver , mostly stock or close to it . in january , there was rotor punch-through . items that were replaced around that time that i can remember were : cap , rotor , points , coil , wires , plugs , alternator . ran great after that for a few weeks with ammeter gauge showing normal . then soon ammeter gauge would fluctuate between a somewhat charge when accelerating to somewhat discharge at idle . it would go back to center after a short time until went back to idle . then it would start over . soon after this the ammeter showed just slight discharge only most of the time . sometimes it would go halfway to charge side , but only for a short time , usually a few minutes or a lot less , then back to slight discharge . i checked all that i could at that time . everything pointed to a bad alternator . it was a rock auto bought REMY remanufactured . had about 300 - 400 miles on it . it took it off brought it to advance auto , they tested it twice , failed twice . i sent it back to rock auto , the sent me another remy rebuild as a warranty replacement . that worked great for about a week or so , charging as normally should and as the car had been for 20 years . week two , it went back to the same slight discharge as the other . again it would go only very occasionally to halfway or so to charge side , then back to slight discharge . i ran a bunch of tests again , i did the alt field out directly through jumper right to battery ground , got no voltage difference in the battery multiple times , once the wire sparked and started charging , then it didn't . since it was acting the same as the other alt , i took it off , had it tested at autozone ( advance' tester machine died ) and twice it passed . now i know that they can't really test it under full load , and it was working intermittently already , so could still be bad . since it and the battery ( battery tested good at store ) was out of the car . i decided just to test continuity at various points , just to see if some of the wires have it . not that it means anything , but i don't know too much about electrical . so , the alt main hot wire to the positive battery cable end had continuity . both wires from the Voltage Reg had cont. to their respective field wire connectors . and the neg cable as well end to ends . reinstalled alternator . by the way , i have been testing things with 3 - 4 different VR's , 1 that was on there , 3 new or NOS . also does not mean they are good . sometimes warmed up , but not always . so with key on , my notes say sometimes battery voltage or close to it on both fields , most times battery or close to battery voltage on the input field and 0 or 003 on output fieldd terminal . one time while running had 0 volts on out , turned car off , waited 3 to 5 minutes , turned key on got near battery volts on IN and OUT , the same , then started car got battery volts on IN , got ZERO on out . next these were tested twice . KEY ON - input = 11.90 output .05 to .06 / car running , fast idle - input 12.20 output .06 - 0.7 . - another VR ( key on 11.01 in / .58 - .60 out / running 12.16 in / .15 out ) yet another VR ( key on 11.80 in / 3.91 out ! running 12.18 /in .08 out ) then jumpered alt output to battery NEG - there was no change . i added a eyelet wire from the regulator to a bolt coming out of the heater blower motor on the firewall , hoping this would help ground things . that had continuity . i removed the negative battery cable to clean up the grounds , the one from the block and the one on the radiator support area . put that on and no change , but i quickly realized i did not fully tighten the ground on the radiator support . i tightened that up , it then went to full charge , pretty much close to the 40 on the right of the ammeter gauged . i was worried that might be too much , so i shut the car off . i then quickly restarted the car and to my surprise , it was back at the usual slight discharge . two days of messing , battery still at 12.62 . at this time i noticed the headlights aren't working right ( they were previously ) when you pull the knob out . most of the lights come on , not the headlights , but at one point were dim . but stuff that should not . the fender mounted turn signals on , the dash lights inside all on plus the high beam light and both directional lights . turn that off and on some lights would go out , but most on . weird . maybe screwing with the grounds did this , i don't know . digging the hole deeper . i removed the negative ground again and reinstalled , no different . you know something is wrong when you see both fender mounts on at same time and stay lit . today . as per an old post . i removed the negative cable from battery , test light between that and post , no light . then voltmeter . it read 10.88 on the Vdc scale , but that was before i realized an aftermarket radio was hooked up to a fuse , drawing power , after i removed that . the volts would read close to 1.00 but quickly drop to .77 - .65 then slowly go down .01 every few seconds . i started pulling fuses . after each one exactly the same result . then as per an old post from from 67dart273 , i tested positive battery to alt blue field ( i assume connected to the alt ? ) - got 1.43 ( post said over .2v to worry . though i thought it was 2 not .2 so i went on to the next test ) and i think the IGN feed from ballast to positive - i got .97 if the ign feed is the one on the left . then started car the ammeter needle went close to 40 again ! i checked NEG to VR case ( without it warming , because of the full charge i did not want to wait ) and was over 13 and fluctuating ( maybe 14 , i did not wait , i shut it down . minutes later i restarted it , ammeter back to slight discharge again ! now a steady reading NEG to VR case 12.77 which is close to full battery voltage right now ( post said over .2v might be bad ground ) plan was to go get a ground strap for the engine to firewall , but i just realized it failed the first test . i just did the positive to alt blue again and got .91 and the ballast to positive got .77 this is on a craftsman meter on the Vdc scale , set at the 20 . i am getting pretty lost here , thats why all the info , not sure what to do now . i started thinking ignition switch , but don't know how to test . the lights i have no idea . could something have burned up the alternators ? the headlight switch ? this is all i will get to until after Carlisle , i hope some of you can make it out there this weekend . i was hoping to have an idea of what i need so i can maybe buy some of it out there . thanks everybody . buy the way i really don't know **** when it comes to electrical . i am trying though . and i wrote this after three full days in the hot sun , so some details missing or possibly off , like my brain right now .
 
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When is your book going to be published? Damn I would like to help but who has time to read all that.
 
Breaking it down into paragraphs may help reading it a little better... :BangHead: :wtf:

No way I can read all that with my ADD... :realcrazy:
 
Sounds like bad grounds at the turn signals and head lights. Can put an extra ground from the engine block to the fire wall body sheet metal too to help with grounding of the interior and dash components.

When you have dim lights or other lights in the system coming on when you don't want them on, that is bad grounds.

When you have bad grounds the electricity is looking for an alternative path to get back to the battery, back feeding through the other lights and components.

50 year old cars here, connections and grounds get corroded.

You can go around with the light switch on and feel the connections (even at the firewall junction block), back of the headlight switch etc. If you find a connection that is hot not making good contact, then that is part of the problem.

Electricity follows the path of least resistance.
 
I wonder if you don't have a bad voltage regulator? They are pretty cheap. I actually had a bad one and didn't realize it until I replaced my gauges with a new cluster that had a voltmeter in it. You should be seeing something like 14 volts with the engine running and the alternator charging. The voltage regulator is mounted to the firewall and is kind of trapezoidal in shape. I tried to paste a picture here but it didn't work for some reason. With low voltage, turn signals will stop working and all kinds of goofy things will happen including your car will quit running when there isn't enough power for the ignition. This can happen with a good battery and alternator.

Good information regarding grounds ^^^^in the last post. I didn't want to duplicate that so please consider that as well.

I may have missed something in your initial write up and if so I apologize. Good luck
 
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Bad connections. I would suspect the bulkhead connector. When connections are corroded, they can arc and cause all sorts of issues you are describing. Original wiring harnesses now have a lot of miles & weather on them. I had issues with my Duster when I bought it and replaced some of the wiring to resolve. Take your time and be methodical otherwise you'll be chasing your tail instead of locating the problems.
 
I'm sorry I cannot digest all that inonegreatbiglongsentenceruntogether

1...Pick one major sympton and troubleshoot THAT
2...You obviously have a voltage/ charging problem that seems to be changing. SUSPECT wiring problems not components.
3...TERMINALS, CONNECTORS, SWITCHES are almost always the problem
4....Establish "the path" of a circuit (with the shop manual) and FOLLOW that path. If you cannot get to "one point" in the path, then jump past that temporarily and come back to it if symptoms/ or testing points back there

For example, "getting to" the ammeter or the welded splice is fairly difficult. But you CAN "get up in there" and probe the bulkhead connector and where does the welded splice go? To the ignition switch and to the fuse panel "hot buss." You can easily access the fuse panel. If you thing there is a drop in the ammeter/ welded splice area, test at the fuse "hot buss" and backtrack from there

FIELD REGULATOR WIRING. This IS a problem and I have written endless posts about this. This voltage drop problem is in the VR power supply path, IE GROUND (rare) and the harness VOLTAGE DROP

The problem, the voltage drop CAN CHANGE AS you run/ drive the vehicle. Therefore the charging output can change.
 
Rotor "punch through." This is almost always caused "by lightning" so to speak. Coil output voltage is VARIABLE depending on the LOAD. You have the coil, the coil wire, the rotor/ cap, the plug wires (and connections), the plug--and maybe resistor plug or "booster gap" plug OR IT MAY BE BROKEN or GAPPED really wide, and then you have the CONDITIONS inside the cylinder.

When something like a bad plug wire, burned valve, etc cause the coil to BECOME UNLOADED at that cylinder, the COIL VOLTAGE goes way UP. Just like lightning, it looks for a place to jump. If the rotor is poor material, cracked, heat damaged, dirty/ moist etc spark can generate a path and heat that up until it CARBON TRACKS and then it is all out drills a hole right through.
 
Bypass the ammeter as a start. and as stated above, voltage regulator.
Break it down into basics and just try to get one piece of info at a time...
Does battery drain without key on? Short at headlight switch? starter/solenoid.
Does battery drain with key in "on" but car not running? (short in column/ dash...)

Some items have hot wires all the time, brake switch, headlight switch etc...others only when key on (ignition sytem)
 
Could be bad ground at the voltage regulator. Run a ground strap directly to that and it might cure the charging problem.
 
not sure at this point if its more than one problem but this is so far : 1972 dart 318 auto daily driver , mostly stock or close to it . in january , there was rotor punch-through . items that were replaced around that time that i can remember were : cap , rotor , points , coil , wires , plugs , alternator . ran great after that for a few weeks with ammeter gauge showing normal . then soon ammeter gauge would fluctuate between a somewhat charge when accelerating to somewhat discharge at idle . it would go back to center after a short time until went back to idle . then it would start over . soon after this the ammeter showed just slight discharge only most of the time . sometimes it would go halfway to charge side , but only for a short time , usually a few minutes or a lot less , then back to slight discharge . i checked all that i could at that time . everything pointed to a bad alternator . it was a rock auto bought REMY remanufactured . had about 300 - 400 miles on it . it took it off brought it to advance auto , they tested it twice , failed twice . i sent it back to rock auto , the sent me another remy rebuild as a warranty replacement . that worked great for about a week or so , charging as normally should and as the car had been for 20 years . week two , it went back to the same slight discharge as the other . again it would go only very occasionally to halfway or so to charge side , then back to slight discharge . i ran a bunch of tests again , i did the alt field out directly through jumper right to battery ground , got no voltage difference in the battery multiple times , once the wire sparked and started charging , then it didn't . since it was acting the same as the other alt , i took it off , had it tested at autozone ( advance' tester machine died ) and twice it passed . now i know that they can't really test it under full load , and it was working intermittently already , so could still be bad . since it and the battery ( battery tested good at store ) was out of the car . i decided just to test continuity at various points , just to see if some of the wires have it . not that it means anything , but i don't know too much about electrical . so , the alt main hot wire to the positive battery cable end had continuity . both wires from the Voltage Reg had cont. to their respective field wire connectors . and the neg cable as well end to ends . reinstalled alternator . by the way , i have been testing things with 3 - 4 different VR's , 1 that was on there , 3 new or NOS . also does not mean they are good . sometimes warmed up , but not always . so with key on , my notes say sometimes battery voltage or close to it on both fields , most times battery or close to battery voltage on the input field and 0 or 003 on output fieldd terminal . one time while running had 0 volts on out , turned car off , waited 3 to 5 minutes , turned key on got near battery volts on IN and OUT , the same , then started car got battery volts on IN , got ZERO on out . next these were tested twice . KEY ON - input = 11.90 output .05 to .06 / car running , fast idle - input 12.20 output .06 - 0.7 . - another VR ( key on 11.01 in / .58 - .60 out / running 12.16 in / .15 out ) yet another VR ( key on 11.80 in / 3.91 out ! running 12.18 /in .08 out ) then jumpered alt output to battery NEG - there was no change . i added a eyelet wire from the regulator to a bolt coming out of the heater blower motor on the firewall , hoping this would help ground things . that had continuity . i removed the negative battery cable to clean up the grounds , the one from the block and the one on the radiator support area . put that on and no change , but i quickly realized i did not fully tighten the ground on the radiator support . i tightened that up , it then went to full charge , pretty much close to the 40 on the right of the ammeter gauged . i was worried that might be too much , so i shut the car off . i then quickly restarted the car and to my surprise , it was back at the usual slight discharge . two days of messing , battery still at 12.62 . at this time i noticed the headlights aren't working right ( they were previously ) when you pull the knob out . most of the lights come on , not the headlights , but at one point were dim . but stuff that should not . the fender mounted turn signals on , the dash lights inside all on plus the high beam light and both directional lights . turn that off and on some lights would go out , but most on . weird . maybe screwing with the grounds did this , i don't know . digging the hole deeper . i removed the negative ground again and reinstalled , no different . you know something is wrong when you see both fender mounts on at same time and stay lit . today . as per an old post . i removed the negative cable from battery , test light between that and post , no light . then voltmeter . it read 10.88 on the Vdc scale , but that was before i realized an aftermarket radio was hooked up to a fuse , drawing power , after i removed that . the volts would read close to 1.00 but quickly drop to .77 - .65 then slowly go down .01 every few seconds . i started pulling fuses . after each one exactly the same result . then as per an old post from from 67dart273 , i tested positive battery to alt blue field ( i assume connected to the alt ? ) - got 1.43 ( post said over .2v to worry . though i thought it was 2 not .2 so i went on to the next test ) and i think the IGN feed from ballast to positive - i got .97 if the ign feed is the one on the left . then started car the ammeter needle went close to 40 again ! i checked NEG to VR case ( without it warming , because of the full charge i did not want to wait ) and was over 13 and fluctuating ( maybe 14 , i did not wait , i shut it down . minutes later i restarted it , ammeter back to slight discharge again ! now a steady reading NEG to VR case 12.77 which is close to full battery voltage right now ( post said over .2v might be bad ground ) plan was to go get a ground strap for the engine to firewall , but i just realized it failed the first test . i just did the positive to alt blue again and got .91 and the ballast to positive got .77 this is on a craftsman meter on the Vdc scale , set at the 20 . i am getting pretty lost here , thats why all the info , not sure what to do now . i started thinking ignition switch , but don't know how to test . the lights i have no idea . could something have burned up the alternators ? the headlight switch ? this is all i will get to until after Carlisle , i hope some of you can make it out there this weekend . i was hoping to have an idea of what i need so i can maybe buy some of it out there . thanks everybody . buy the way i really don't know **** when it comes to electrical . i am trying though . and i wrote this after three full days in the hot sun , so some details missing or possibly off , like my brain right now .
You need to realise an ammeter is basically a voltmeter connected across a high ampereage "shunt" or bar. All the alternator output current must pass through this shunt. So you have an ampmeter with the battery connected to one side and the alternator or generator on the other. The loads (lights, heater fan, etc) are connected to somewhere on the alternator side. The ammeter indicates which direction electrons are travelling, into or out of the battery. So you turn the key and lights on, the ammeter indicates - amps. Now you turn the lights off and start the engine. The alternator regulator senses the battery voltage is down so it energises the field in the alternator to generate electrons to be sent to the alternator. Tha ammeter will respond indicating + amps. Now you turn on the lights on high beam and heater fan on high, the + amps reading is probably going to drop slightly as the battery is fairly well charged and more electrons get siphoned off to loads.
An old ammeter can have an internal loose/poor connection or loose/poor wiring connection. This can cause all sorts of goofy hassels. Getting to the visible terminals on the ammeter can be difficult. With a DVOM connect the negative lead to a good body ground. Best to check battery voltage at the battery first as a baseline. The probe the wiring terminals on both sides of the ammeter. You should read battery voltage. Then turn the lights on. You will have a voltage drop, but both sides of the wires should be the same voltage. If they differ, check on the ammeter wire studs. You can check voltage drop across the ammeter by connecting your multimeter leads across the ammeter terminals. With nothing on in the car there should be 0 volts across the gauge. With a load on a voltage drop will be read, but should be quite little. The ampmeter functions by measuring the small calibrated voltage drop across the shunt and the direction of flow of the electrons.
I hope this explains a bit how it works and helps diagnose the problem.
As a caution, do not poke through wire insulation to check continuity or voltage. Inside the car is one thing, but under the hood and out at lights moisture can get in and start corrosion (green death). T pins from a fabric shop are excellent for getting into the terminals on sealed connectors without disconnecting them. Carefully slid between the wire and seal without damaging the seal.
 
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Sounds like bad grounds at the turn signals and head lights. Can put an extra ground from the engine block to the fire wall body sheet metal too to help with grounding of the interior and dash components.

When you have dim lights or other lights in the system coming on when you don't want them on, that is bad grounds.

When you have bad grounds the electricity is looking for an alternative path to get back to the battery, back feeding through the other lights and components.

50 year old cars here, connections and grounds get corroded.

You can go around with the light switch on and feel the connections (even at the firewall junction block), back of the headlight switch etc. If you find a connection that is hot not making good contact, then that is part of the problem.

Electricity follows the path of least resistance.
Almost all my electrical problems that I have, even in my newer cars that make no sense, including computer issues, I go with checking all the grounds and use dielectric grease at all connections to the body and engine connections. I'm a big believer in using dielectric grease at all electrical connections, including my lawn trackers. Remember, grounds are not just wirers, they can be base grounded.
 
So this is your basic system. I would suspect the firewall connections as you have intermittent connections shown in your testing of voltages and amps. That would be a reason for no headlights if now power gets to switched on. Run a good sized jumper from alt + to battery + and see what you get beside an ammeter that only shows discharge by amount of amps being used. Test voltage at batt. There will be two paths for power to get to all circuits. Plug an after marker phone charger/voltmeter into your cigarette lighter to see voltage on road.

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Kudos to some of the folks who were able to read through that headache inducing verbiage.

For the sake of those who have spent some time translating your ramblings, when you respond with updates, consider using some punctuation. Yes, it might take more time but the folks who have already responded with input have spent a great deal of time deciphering your ramblings. Return the favour to them by spending more time thinking/re reading your response.
 
I have (sorta) learned that I need to go back and proof read what I write and ask myself, if it will be clear to the person reading it and make sense. I appreciate all that try to help me and anyone.
Sometimes I write in Texan and the helpers are reading in Jersey and Vermontian!!!!
 
Sorry everyone . I apologize . I wrote that mess after three full days in the hot sun . I was not thinking clearly , and I was in a rush .
 
Could be bad ground at the voltage regulator. Run a ground strap directly to that and it might cure the charging problem.


I want to make sure that the Voltage Regulator is grounded . I just added a flat braided ground strap from the back of the engine block to one of the master cylinder bolts . i was going to add another ground strap from the VR to another one of the master cylinder bolts ? Would that cause any problems , having both ground straps going to opposite sides of the master cylinder ?
 
No. Be sure you scrape the paint away around the mounting screws, and if you can come up with any, "start" lock washers, either internal or external, are helpful
 
I want to make sure that the Voltage Regulator is grounded . I just added a flat braided ground strap from the back of the engine block to one of the master cylinder bolts . i was going to add another ground strap from the VR to another one of the master cylinder bolts ? Would that cause any problems , having both ground straps going to opposite sides of the master cylinder ?
You should have a ground wire or strap from the engine head (which is the ground from battery) to the fire wall (body). Clean all contacts and use dielectric grease at ends. I see no reason to set grounds to master cylinder.
 
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