Another “What Cam and Heads” do I go with….?

[67cuda360]

As you can all see, I have been doing some research…. Just enough to be dangerous LOL.

I have a '67 barracuda (3300+/- pounds) with a 360 (stock stroke, 145-150psi cranking pressure), with stock pistons, Solid cam .415/.425, J heads with adjustable 273 rockers, Dougs headers, air gap intake, 650 thunder AVS carb. Trans is 727 with a shift kit and 3.23 Suregrip with a stock stall converter and frame connectors.


Car is a 100% street car, I am at sea-level and have 91 Octane max. available at the pump.


Below is what I plan to add to my current 8.5:1 static compression 360 and build a stroker shortblock to go with it later.


Torque converter: Looking to have a modern converter built that stalls high (3000-3500) but doesn’t slip while cruising and taking off at part throttle.

Rockers: Based on another thread I started I will go with PRW 1.5 roller rockers with a B3 correction kit depending on what head is used.

Heads: I am thinking TF-190(60cc) as everyone mentions “Buy the best head you can afford” and the TF seem to flow a LOT better than the Promaxx 171-(63-65cc) out of the box so maybe the price difference is worth it, or is it overkill for me?

Cam type: hydraulic roller or Solid Flat tappet? I am looking at 2 Hughes cams, the solid listed below is probably a bit too much duration based on my earlier thread regarding this cam.

Roller SER2226ALN-10: Duration: 222/226 @50. lift: .515/.512 LSA: 110 ICL: 106 ICA: 37
Anything special needed to put this roller into a LA engine (except for special lifters HUG5321)?

Solid FT STL3438AS-8: Duration: 234/238 @50. lift: .546/.558 LSA: 108 ICL: 104 ICA: 41


With the above cam options, based on the Wallace Racing calculator with 60cc heads and my stock pistons
(+7.5cc, estimated 0.077 in the hole and .039 gasket) I get the below numbers:

Static compression: 9.15:1
Dynamic compression: 8.4 – 8.56 (depending on cam ICA)
Cranking PSI: 174-179 (depending on cam ICA)


Will the above run on 91 Octane at sea level?

When I upgrade the shortblock later on to go 408 Stroker with a 0 decked block, .040” squish/quench area (with the head gasket) and pistons that bring the static compression to around 10.5:1 it looks like the dynamic compression will be way too high 9.78:1 with 212 PSI.

How do people build a stroker for the street that runs on 91 octane without going with a huge duration cam?

so Basically, what heads and cam should I pick, and will that still run when I upgrade the bottom end to a stroker.

 

[Illahe]

As you can all see, I have been doing some research…. Just enough to be dangerous LOL.

I have a '67 barracuda (3300+/- pounds) with a 360 (stock stroke, 145-150psi cranking pressure), with stock pistons, Solid cam .415/4.25, J heads with adjustable 273 rockers, Dougs headers, air gap intake, 650 thunder AVS carb. Trans is 727 with a shift kit and 3.23 Suregrip with a stock stall converter and frame connectors.


Car is a 100% street car, I am at sea-level and have 91 Octane max. available at the pump.


Below is what I plan to add to my current 8.5:1 static compression 360 and build a stroker shortblock to go with it later.


Torque converter: Looking to have a modern converter built that stalls high (3000-3500) but doesn’t slip while cruising and taking off at part throttle.

Rockers: Based on another thread I started I will go with PRW 1.5 roller rockers with a B3 correction kit depending on what head is used.

Heads: I am thinking TF-190(60cc) as everyone mentions “Buy the best head you can afford” and the TF seem to flow a LOT better than the Promaxx 171-(63-65cc) out of the box so maybe the price difference is worth it, or is it overkill for me?

Cam type: hydraulic roller or Solid Flat tappet? I am looking at 2 Hughes cams, the solid listed below is probably a bit too much duration based on my earlier thread regarding this cam.

Roller SER2226ALN-10: Duration: 222/226 @50. lift: .515/.512 LSA: 110 ICL: 106 ICA: 37
Anything special needed to put this roller into a LA engine (except for special lifters HUG5321)?

Solid FT STL3438AS-8: Duration: 234/238 @50. lift: .546/.558 LSA: 108 ICL: 104 ICA: 41


With the above cam options, based on the Wallace Racing calculator with 60cc heads and my stock pistons
(+7.5cc, estimated 0.077 in the hole and .039 gasket) I get the below numbers:

Static compression: 9.15:1
Dynamic compression: 8.4 – 8.56 (depending on cam ICA)
Cranking PSI: 174-179 (depending on cam ICA)


Will the above run on 91 Octane at sea level?

When I upgrade the shortblock later on to go 408 Stroker with a 0 decked block, .040” squish/quench area (with the head gasket) and pistons that bring the static compression to around 10.5:1 it looks like the dynamic compression will be way too high 9.78:1 with 212 PSI.

How do people build a stroker for the street that runs on 91 octane without going with a huge duration cam?

so Basically, what heads and cam should I pick, and will that still run when I upgrade the bottom end to a stroker.

Have you spoke with @NC Engine Builder? He is dialed on 408 combos.

 

[CRUZE 418]

Your going to get a correction kit from Mike, have him spec your parts out and get it all from him. That's what I did, then your not running around like a chicken with your head cut off wondering why doesn't this or that fit? Too many people pump him when they have problems, and they never bought anything from him. One stop, one shop.

 

[67cuda360]

I am up in Canada and doing the build in stages so not sure if I can do One stop, one shop unfortunately. I have a good performance/machine shop close by that builds performance motors and the owner built and races a 408 dart so I hope to get the short block done there.

just trying to get a gameplan together. Any feedback is appreciated.

 

[fishmens67]

I am thinking TF-190(60cc) as everyone mentions

You answered one of the questions.

 

[67cuda360]

ha ha yes, it is the better flowing head. But with the combo I list above will I really notice the difference between the TrickFlow or the Promaxx 171?

 

[gzig5]

ha ha yes, it is the better flowing head. But with the combo I list above will I really notice the difference between the TrickFlow or the Promaxx 171?

You will notice the difference if you give it enough cam. Strokers eat up duration. You can run a much more aggressive cam and the motor will be docile with a 4 inch stroke versus stock stroke. The roller you mentioned looks way too small to me and the SFT is just beginning to get into the duration range. I think you wanna have something in the mid 240s at least on intake duration. I’m running a 242/247 SFT in my 340 that have the pro maxx 171 heads that have been breathed on a little bit, but they still don’t flow the as much as the trick flow heads.

 

[RustyRatRod]

You'll need to actually measure your static compression ratio as it is now. It's not 8.4:1.

 

[67cuda360]

You'll need to actually measure your static compression ratio as it is now. It's not 8.4:1.

The only way to do that is take the heads off no? The fact that it has 145-150 psi cranking pressure with the known stock pistons and known cam lift etc. backs the 8.5:1 pretty closely doesn’t it? I am pretty sure The j heads have been milled down to increase compression since the intake wouldn’t fit with normal intake gaskets when i first installed it. I had to make my own for it to seal.

Not trying to be smart just trying to understand why you think it isn’t 8.5:1 static compression at the moment.

 

[67cuda360]

You will notice the difference if you give it enough cam. Strokers eat up duration. You can run a much more aggressive cam and the motor will be docile with a 4 inch stroke versus stock stroke. The roller you mentioned looks way too small to me and the SFT is just beginning to get into the duration range. I think you wanna have something in the mid 240s at least on intake duration. I’m running a 242/247 SFT in my 340 that have the pro maxx 171 heads that have been breathed on a little bit, but they still don’t flow the as much as the trick flow heads.

Is your 340 stroked? What converter (or manual) and gear are you running? On the promaxx 171, did you just touch up the exhaust ports to flow more?

 

[gzig5]

Is your 340 stroked? What converter (or manual) and gear are you running? On the promaxx 171, did you just touch up the exhaust ports to flow more?

Stock stroke. Manual. 3.55 gear but might try a 3.91 or 4.10 with gear vendors OD. Engine has yet to be installed. I think he mainly did chamber side work unshrouding the intake valve and a little in the port. All quick and easy stuff. Exhaust not touched. Increased intake flow from 252 to around 278 @.600” on his bench.
Build thread Stock Stroke 340 Build with NC Engine Builder

The PM 171 is a good head, but I think 400+ inch small block can use every bit of flow that the trick flow 190 provide. The PM Shocker 185 would be a better choice for the stroker than the 171.

 

[67cuda360]

Yes true on the 185 shocker but then the TF190 is only i tiny bit more money lol. The cam that you list. Is that duration you listed the advertised or the @50 duration. Seems huge for a stock stroke 340 if it is 242/247 @ 50.

 

[67cuda360]

Just read your thread and those were @50 numbers.

 

[RustyRatRod]

The only way to do that is take the heads off no? The fact that it has 145-150 psi cranking pressure with the known stock pistons and known cam lift etc. backs the 8.5:1 pretty closely doesn’t it? I am pretty sure The j heads have been milled down to increase compression since the intake wouldn’t fit with normal intake gaskets when i first installed it. I had to make my own for it to seal.

Not trying to be smart just trying to understand why you think it isn’t 8.5:1 static compression at the moment.

No. The stock camshaft is tiny, so the cranking compression will be pretty good if the rings and valves are in good shape. Without fail, Chrysler over rated the compression ratio on all these older engines. They all blueprint much lower than the rated spec. Chrysler was terrible about casting blocks with deck heights taller then spec and head chambers too large. Those things dropped actual measured compression a good bit in some cases. Most measure out under 8:1. Remember static compression ratio has zero to do with actual cranking compression. That is a function of the camshaft and camshaft timing. I'll put it like this. If you measure yours and it's 8.4:1 that will be the first one I have ever seen in my life and I've been doing this since 1974. The book spec basically means nothing.

 

[Illahe]

You will notice the difference if you give it enough cam. Strokers eat up duration. You can run a much more aggressive cam and the motor will be docile with a 4 inch stroke versus stock stroke. The roller you mentioned looks way too small to me and the SFT is just beginning to get into the duration range. I think you wanna have something in the mid 240s at least on intake duration. I’m running a 242/247 SFT in my 340 that have the pro maxx 171 heads that have been breathed on a little bit, but they still don’t flow the as much as the trick flow heads.

This^^^^. I run a 242/242 SFT in my 9.6:1 340 with 1.88 heads. It’s done at 5800.

A stroker wants 250-260 @ .05 if your building more than a truck motor.

 

[Earlie A]

Two big advantages to using the TF heads on your 360. The first is the 60cc chamber vs the 63 or 65 on the ProMaxx. The second advantage is that the rocker shaft location has been raised on the TF. There should be no need for a geometry ‘modification kit’. There is no such thing as a system that corrects the geometry on a 59 degree Mopar head/block.

 

[67cuda360]

Thanks, so trying to run a cam that will work for me in both the stock stroke and then later in the stroked block doesn’t really seem like a realistic option does it?

I want to stick with the 3.23 gears so even with a good modern converter i am limited with how big a duration cam i can run (especially on the stock stroke for now).

I guess i can go with a roller cam one step larger than listed above with the 5321 lifters. That way the only extra thing i would have to switch when going stroker would be a bigger roller cam. (Lifters and springs, i’ll look up the numbers, look to work with multiple options).

Any suggestions on what specs would work best with my above package (stock stroke) and what spec for stroked?

 

[cookietruck]

Thanks, so trying to run a cam that will work for me in both the stock stroke and then later in the stroked block doesn’t really seem like a realistic option does it?

I want to stick with the 3.23 gears so even with a good modern converter i am limited with how big a duration cam i can run (especially on the stock stroke for now).

I guess i can go with a roller cam one step larger than listed above with the 5321 lifters. That way the only extra thing i would have to switch when going stroker would be a bigger roller cam. (Lifters and springs, i’ll look up the numbers, look to work with multiple options).

Any suggestions on what specs would work best with my above package (stock stroke) and what spec for stroked?

You could run the same cam, it won’t be perfect for either motor though.
or pick the cam for the stroker and just live with the stock stroke low compression motor feeling lazy at low rpm.

 

[67cuda360]

No. The stock camshaft is tiny, so the cranking compression will be pretty good if the rings and valves are in good shape. Without fail, Chrysler over rated the compression ratio on all these older engines. They all blueprint much lower than the rated spec. Chrysler was terrible about casting blocks with deck heights taller then spec and head chambers too large. Those things dropped actual measured compression a good bit in some cases. Most measure out under 8:1. Remember static compression ratio has zero to do with actual cranking compression. That is a function of the camshaft and camshaft timing. I'll put it like this. If you measure yours and it's 8.4:1 that will be the first one I have ever seen in my life and I've been doing this since 1974. The book spec basically means nothing.

Thanks @RustyRatRod as I mentioned I have done enough research to be dangerous LOL. I really appreciate you all bearing with me.

I know the deck heights were all over the place and also how far the pistons are down the holes vary greatly. But wouldn't the below (with pistons 0.100 down the hole) be a pretty worst case scenario?

the below image is the stock stroke, +30 over bore, stock rods, with TrickFlow 60 cc heads, .039 head gaskets, dished pistons .100 in the hole and the roller cam that calls for 2500 stall and 3.23+ gears.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Thanks @RustyRatRod as I mentioned I have done enough research to be dangerous LOL. I really appreciate you all bearing with me.

I know the deck heights were all over the place and also how far the pistons are down the holes vary greatly. But wouldn't the below (with pistons 0.100 down the hole) be a pretty worst case scenario?

the below image is the stock stroke, +30 over bore, stock rods, with TrickFlow 60 cc heads, .039 head gaskets, dished pistons .100 in the hole and the roller cam that calls for 2500 stall and 3.23+ gears.

View attachment 1716507472

No. .100 in the hole and sometimes more is how they were. The slant 6 is usually around .180 in the hole. You can argue till the cows come home, but that's how they were built. There were some exceptions, like the 318. They were usually .040-.060 in the hole. Your calculations for the aluminum head are probably about right, but the iron heads typically had larger chambers than what was specced, so the stock compression would blueprint a bit lower than spec, like they all did. 8.75 is probably about right with the 60cc chamber.

 

[67cuda360]

No. .100 in the hole and sometimes more is how they were. The slant 6 is usually around .180 in the hole. You can argue till the cows come home, but that's how they were built. There were some exceptions, like the 318. They were usually .040-.060 in the hole. Your calculations for the aluminum head are probably about right, but the iron heads typically had larger chambers than what was specced, so the stock compression would blueprint a bit lower than spec, like they all did. 8.75 is probably about right with the 60cc chamber.

ha ha, yes so many variables to take into consideration.
So based on the above info, would this be a tire smoker with the 3.23 gears and a modern converter running on 91 octane or would it be a dog down low?

 

[74Scooter]

Thanks @RustyRatRod as I mentioned I have done enough research to be dangerous LOL. I really appreciate you all bearing with me.

I know the deck heights were all over the place and also how far the pistons are down the holes vary greatly. But wouldn't the below (with pistons 0.100 down the hole) be a pretty worst case scenario?

the below image is the stock stroke, +30 over bore, stock rods, with TrickFlow 60 cc heads, .039 head gaskets, dished pistons .100 in the hole and the roller cam that calls for 2500 stall and 3.23+ gears.

View attachment 1716507472

Have a similar 360 in mine and ran similar calc's before buying the Promaxx 63cc heads as a cost effective upgrade over the stock heads. My 360 was .030 over as well, I measured the slugs as .100 in the hole. The stock pistons are dished so your effective dome volume should be +.050cc unless the pistons are not stock yes? Here was my calc.

 

[67cuda360]

Hi I think the stock dished piston is +7.5cc not +0.50 as you listed above.
Below are the pistons I think my engine currently has or similar. For some reason the image quality is horrible when I upload it.

here is the link. Silvolite 1279HC.030 Silv-O-Lite Hypereutectic Pistons | Summit Racing

 

[74Scooter]

Hi I think the stock dished piston is +7.5cc not +0.50 as you listed above.

View attachment 1716507509

Getting old.. cannot read the specs in the photo... lol.

I looked up the specs at Summit. Silv-O-Lite Hypereutectic Pistons 1279HC.030 .

The specs. at Summit indeed says:

"Piston Head Volume (cc): +7.50cc"

But also has the following note at the bottom of the spec. sheet:

"Notes: 3.130 inch diameter, 0.050 inch deep recessed piston head."

I don't see how you get a positive piston head volume with a .050 recessed "dished" piston head?

Maybe one of the smart fellas here can bring me up to speed.

*** EDIT***

Just wanted to add even the compression calculator states to use - for dome and + for dished pistons.

 

[67cuda360]

I think they mean the CC of the piston dish is 7.5 cc. but at the spec'd compression height the piston sits .050 in the hole.
(but that is probably an understatement since most of them sit further down due to not as advertised block heights etc.)
But lets hope some expert chimes in LOL.