another overheating problem

Slant 6 Engines

  1. Phily

    Phily 3XL, loud pipes, loud music, loud weed

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    225 slant six. Not the original motor that came with my 76 dart.drool tube head. Holley 1945 carb which I rebuilt but did not take to much attention adjusting the float and the get vacuum amplifier nipple fell out and the opening inside knocked down to block it ( might not have been the best thing).
    So last year I think it was or just about I tore apart my head and replaced all the gaskets and rubber. I used a felpro kit.
    I didn't realize it said no retorque on it and I retorqued it like the book said. It was leaking coolant down the block before I retired it is why I did when it reached operating temp. And the coolant stopped dripping
    Well it started over heating more recently and tore the head back off. It was puking out the rez. After changing the cap and tstat a few times I took the water pump off and it seemed fine. Which is why the head came back off.
    I put a level on it as it's the flattest thing I have ran a feelers by it and it's straight. I used a .381 feelers as the book says anything more needs resurfaced but by looking at it I think it's about perfectly flat and I don't thing my smallest feeler would get under it.
    I don't have anything small enough to check the block in the car.
    Could the block be warped? Maybe the initial coolant leak cause a pocket under the gasket allowing continued leaking.
    I removed the head by myself with my cherry picker so the gasket wasn't in best shape to look at by the push rods but around the cylinders it looked fine. I'm not sure what could be the issue. I do know I did get an exhaust leak at the exhaust manifold/down pipe and it was blowing out toward the block.
    I do want to replace the piston rings but I may have to pass on this still. I can handle a bit of blow by til I can make enough money in the next few months just to send it to the machine shop. I'm sure I can't remove the rings right now as the ring wear is probably gonna get in the way like my other block sitting under my awning. I maybe wrong and ring compressor might actually fit but risk. Haven't changed rings before. I might just take the whole block in and have it rebuilt professionally but I don't generally trust shops which is why I work on my own vehicles.
    O and I did notice a bunch of gunk building up around a couple of th spark plugs so I'm sure something is wrong in the head. It drive all summer with a bad clutch til it went out and I replaced it. The over heating started about a month ago I think. Blew up my radiator which I learned how to sweat it back together just for it to blow on the exact opposite. So I'm hoping my radiator out of my 78 b100 slant six will work, if it's still good. It's bigger but I think it might work even if I have to drill some extra holes to mount it in.
    Thought, ideas, and no I'm not putting a v8 in it lol
     
  2. nm9stheham

    nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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    'No retorque' means you don't HAVE to retorque them, but it should not hurt to do so.

    The fact that you had coolant leakage that stopped after the re-torque says there was something wrong in the initial head installation. Did you use a known-good torque wrench, and did you follow the proper bolt torquing sequence? Also, you should torque the head bolts in the proper sequence in 2-3 steps to final torque. In other words, go around the torquing pattern 3 times, up to 25 ft-lbs on the first round, then 45 ft lbs on the 2nd round, then the final torque on the last round.

    Are the head and block surface clean and rust free?

    Inspect the head bolts and compare them side-by-side for length and look for any one(s) that are thinned in the shank or are a lot longer than the others. You're just doing a basic check for a stretched bolt.

    What did you use as a straight edge for checking the head, and did you flip it to the other side and re-check? (Just to try to find any bow in your straight edge....)

    The exhaust gasket leak should not have caused this overheating problem.

    I would not suggest doing the piston rings; there is more to that process than just changing them out. The cylinder need honing and any ridge removed.

    Can you better describe the 'gunk' around the spark plugs? Where is it? Color? Does it look like anything?
     
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    • Phily

      Phily 3XL, loud pipes, loud music, loud weed

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      I did not use a 3 step process, I just got them snug using the proper pattern then torque to spec. So that could be part of it.
      I did not flip over my level but did use another straight edge which I use when cutting carpet although rarely use. And both seemed fine.
      The gunk was black like and hard like oil gunk that was fired so I assume that is what it is, oil. When I start the car it would always bellow out a cloud of smoke like it had bronchitis and needed to clear it's throat so to speak. White smoke always. So I am guessing coolant getting in the combustion chamber.
      The coolant and oil have not mixed from what I've seen. The oil is a bit runny I'm assuming from gas, again it's been a pain to start when cold but not so bad when warm.sometimes fires right up when the ignition is turned over as in u can't just tap the ignition or it would fire right up but not always.
       
    • Dubob

      Dubob Well-Known Member

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      Also make sure the bolt holes in the block have nothing in them to prevent the bolts pulling down. Any oil or crud can hydro lock or give false torque readings.
       
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      • Phily

        Phily 3XL, loud pipes, loud music, loud weed

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        Otherwise and I forgot the mating surfaces are clean no rust or pitting
         
      • AJ/FormS

        AJ/FormS 68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s FABO Gold Member

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        If you have been running antifreeze
        Go to the back of the car,stick a finger into the pipe and rub it in the soot, then taste your finger. If it is sweet, the she's pushing coolant thru alright.
        With the head now off, find the clean piston. That's the one that is making steam.
        Check the chamber above it for a crack(s).
        Push the piston to the bottom, and check the cylinder wall for a crack.
        Look on the backs of the intake valves. You see any green tinge on one of them, or one that is washed clean.Also check the exhaust valves;both sides.
        If you couldn't find anything then the head needs to be pressure tested.

        what's a .381 feeler
         
      • RustyRatRod

        RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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        I took it to mean three hundred and eighty one thousandths of an inch, just like he typed.

        I think there's a slight mistake somewhere.


        To the OP.........

        This is not meant personally so don't take it as such.

        So why did you pull the head? Simply because you threw everything else at it? What kind of ridiculous reasoning is that? You diagnosed nothing. You simply tried this and tried that and then yanked the head back off. There are a LOT more things that can cause over heating. Arbitrarily pulling the head with zero evidence is very likely going to result in you not finding what's actually wrong. ....as you have found out.

        Proper diagnosis is key. Inspect for symptoms, diagnose as needed. It is very easy to see if a head gasket has failed or if a head or block is cracked. All of the major big box stores loan tools to diagnose that problem.

        Yet, you chose to forge ahead into the vast unknown........that remains unknown because you didn't follow some very simple diagnostic procedures. At this point, you may never find out what the problem was.

        Here is my suggestion. Since you have the head off, take it in and have it pressure checked. Let the professional machine shop check it for level. If they find all is well, replace the head back on the engine and get it running again. If it no longer over heats, guess what? You got lucky. If it still does, first VERIFY it is running hot. If so, go to one of your local big box stores and borrow the tool that tests for combustion in the antifreeze. Really easy to use.

        If it passes that test......you've said you already checked the thermostat. At that point, I would remove the radiator and get it flowed. See what the outcome is there.

        You don't fix something by throwing parts at it or arbitrarily ripping it apart. You fix things by proper diagnosis and repair. That's how it's done.

        Everybody always wants to skip diagnosis trying to save time and almost always without fail, they spend twice or more the amount of time they wanted to spend.
         
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        • Phily

          Phily 3XL, loud pipes, loud music, loud weed

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          The reason I pulled the head is after changing the head gasket and replacing all the other gaskets and valve seals I had white smoke shooting out the exhaust and it became harder to start. I took it as ring blow by at first. But I also noticed coolant leaking down the side of the block right after. After retorquing the head the leak off the block seemed to stop but I still had other issues which as I stated I thought was just ring blow by.
          But with coolant levels still going down little by little then it over heating I figured it must be a warped head or faulty head gasket or improper installation. The only thing I had not replaced was the radiator. When using first got the car the heater core was leaking so I changed it. Then I replaced all the hoses, and radiator cap. When i yanked the head the first time I changed the tstat.
          I tried running with no tstat but that still made it over heat if not faster. I've replaced the cap a few times as well. Boiled the tstat and all opened and closed.
          The head shouldn't have any blockage as I soaked it it parts cleaner and shot my water hose through it thoroughly. I had high water pressure at my old house and all gunk SHOULD have blown out if there was any. I really do think it was improper gasket install.
          I'll call the machine shops tomorrow and see about getting the head pressure checked.Hopefully my boss finally pays me. About to start hunting for new work lol
          How do you check combustion in coolant lol you shouldn't have combustion in coolant
          And the old radiator I'm not putting back in. I'll 've taking the one from the van sealing it off and adding air to it to see if it leaks. The radiator could very well be part of the problem as well. But I don't remember billowing smoke out the exhaust before the first gasket change.
          The only thing I didn't do before I tore the head off was a compression test. The radiator blew on me while driving and I was out of town and had to repair it on the side of the road about an hour and half from home. Since I'm already working on it, even if it wasn't the head causing the over heating I had been leaking a bit of oil still and would rather change the head gasket to be sure. I'm just taking preventative measure not just throwing time and labor and money at it. My lady drives it and I'd rather spend the little extra then have a bigger problem later. Any time I personally drive it, it's longer drives. It doesn't over heat on her as she only drives it 10 minutes to work and 10 back but she is switching jobs to an hour drive as well so for me better safe than sorry.
          Now I'm just rambling, dampened alcohol. I'm gonna check my neighbor tomorrow as well to see if he has a precision straight edge I can use. Anyways I'll post back my findings. Thanks for all the input
           
        • RustyRatRod

          RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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          There's a kit you can borrow from the parts store that adds dye to the coolant. It reacts and turns a different color if combustion gasses are present. You should get a straight edge and check the block deck, too. I don't know where the .381" figure came from, but the go/no go spec is .002". If you can get more than a .002" feeler gauge under a straight edge on the deck surface, it needs truing up.

          The proper way to check it is parallel with the crank front to back, then at opposite opposing corners. The blocks are notoriously known for being high and "twisted" at the deck surface right from the factory.

          Good luck with it. Keep us posted. I hope you get it fixed.
           
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          • Phily

            Phily 3XL, loud pipes, loud music, loud weed

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            Lol I read the numbers wrong out my book. Says anything more than .039 is needed resurfaced. So I went off the bottom number of my feel gauge cause no way could it be going off the top number.
             
          • Phily

            Phily 3XL, loud pipes, loud music, loud weed

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            .015in/.381 is the size I used
             
          • RustyRatRod

            RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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            .039 is a clear misprint. That's a huge gap for a spec. I would mill at anything over .002".
             
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            • famous bob

              famous bob mopar misfit

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              -----------------------------------HELL OF A FEELER !!!!!!!!!!
               
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              • Frnknsteen

                Frnknsteen Well-Known Member

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                What book are you referencing? Where do you live? Only reason I am asking is that I agree with RatRod that .039" is WAY to big of a spec for flatness of a head or block face. Out of curiosity, I converted .039 millimeters to inches and it comes out to .00154", which as RatRod suggested would be a more reasonable number to be a spec for flatness.

                Is it possible your book is giving you specifications converted to the metric system, and is calling out the flatness spec as .039mm (Millimeters)?
                 
              • nm9stheham

                nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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                Yes, you might get away with .004" or .005" warpage, but not .039". Heck the original head gasket was only .022" thick! So I am not sure where the .039" max warpage came from. Maybe .0039" ?

                The .381 is .381 mm, which is the metric conversion from .015"; the OP appears to have a set of feelers that is marked in both English and metric. So that explains that... LOL OP, you need to ignore the .xxx numbers which are in mm, and use the .0yy numbers on your feelers, which are in inches.

                You are being guided onto the right path to have the head pressure-checked for cracks. It sounds like this started after the rad blew and things over-heated, and that is a good situation to lead to a warped head. Hopefully it is just warpage. And a straight edge to check for warpage needs to be darned precise. (I checked mine against a precision straight edge use to true up the ways on lathes...)

                I have never tried the dye that RR mentioned; that sounds useful. You can also sometimes borrow a gauge that goes in pace of the rad cap; then pressure builds up, you can see the pressure in the cooling system, and more importantly, there will be pulsing in the gauge indication if you have a head gasket leak into the cooling system.

                As for the hardened oil 'gunk' around the plugs, if you have the aluminum cups around the spark plugs (called 'drool tubes' LOL), they have gaskets around the upper edges to seal off the oil vapors behind the cups. These gaskets rot and distort and leak. A new set is just a few $$. Also, if I recall right, the compression seal ring on the plug shank should be removed if you have these cups in the head. (With some exceptions on the very earliest models....)
                 
              • Phily

                Phily 3XL, loud pipes, loud music, loud weed

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                I got the number out of a Haynes manual my buddy had when using got the car off him. I believe it was released in 85. It does say .039 in. So I'm sure your right about a misprint.
                I called the machine shop the guy was like "a slant six I haven't worked in one of those in years" in an excited tone lol. And said 48$ for a pressure test ant 78 I think for resurfacing. I should have asked if he had any work for trade he needs done. I'm a professional flooring tile and paint guy. As I don't know if my boss will pay me today. I just need to kick my boss in the ass.
                I should have taken a pic of the gunk but my phone won't upload pics for me. The gaskets are about a year old but I do have a new complete motor gasket set so no worries on replacing those.
                 
              • nm9stheham

                nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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                That call to the machinist sounds encouraging! Let's hope for no cracks and just some warpage. Sure would be nice to get the valves and guides checked and reworked at this point, but it sounds like the old money issue is rearing its ugly head...
                 
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                • RustyRatRod

                  RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                  That's what she said.
                   
                • RustyRatRod

                  RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                  Those are good prices for the cylinder head work! They sound reasonable.
                   
                • Phily

                  Phily 3XL, loud pipes, loud music, loud weed

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                  Yahoo I talked to home about boring the motor for me to get it right not for performance and he said 150. Not bad at all imo. Since I'll have to get it bored later should I have him shave the head down a bit. I don't want to go the whole .100 but I don't want to lose compression and make the motor have less power. Maybe .050? I'm let me know and I'll give him a call in the am lol. He said it won't be ready til friday
                   
                • nm9stheham

                  nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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                  .050" or .060" are very reasonable. With the thicker aftermarket head gaskets, you will still be .03 to .04" better. You'll feel the change in low and mid range; it'll be about .3-.4 increase in CR.

                  When you get to that point, make sure the timing chain is new and of good quality. With the typical stretch, your cam is likely 3-5 degrees, and correcting that shows up in throttle response and low RPM torque.
                   
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                  • nm9stheham

                    nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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                    Sounds like he has been in business for some decades and has his equipment paid for. We're fortunate to have two shops like that here and the rates are similarly low, plus long experience is there. (Not that things don't need to be QC'd....)
                     
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                    • Phily

                      Phily 3XL, loud pipes, loud music, loud weed

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                      Yahoo he's an older gent. Has his wife there and a couple workers. Good vibes from it.
                      You think I'll be ok still running the felpro gasket on the head after shaving the head or when I'm done doing the whole thing sometime next year.
                      Thanks for all the help so far guys.
                       
                    • Tooljunkie

                      Tooljunkie King of cobble/master of the broken bolt FABO Gold Member

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                      I have the tester for checking for combustion gases in coolant.
                      Engine running,unit has a chemical in it that reacts with combustion gases,gases sampled from rad while engine is running.

                      I also use a pressure tester.
                      If it was smoking white,coolant was passing through at least one cylinder would leave clear evidence by having a shiny piston.
                      A cylinder head dragged across gasket during installation could cause a leak too. Toss that haynes manual and find one that applies to your particular engine.
                      I believe somewhere on here in this forum is a link to manual downloads.

                      Getting head tested is a good step in the right direction.
                       
                    • Phily

                      Phily 3XL, loud pipes, loud music, loud weed

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                      Actually the manual is for this motor. Dodge dart and demon, Plymouth valiant, barracks 67- 69 and duster, all 6 cylinder engines 67-76. But I agree. The specs are not what I've seen here on this forum or slant six.org
                       
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