Anyone have experience installing Hughes cams?

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HotRod777

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I’ll pre-game my question by saying yes, I know how to and that I should degree all camshafts. I also have the tools required to do that. I’m just looking for an explanation as to how Hughes specs their cams and how they write their cam cards. I contacted their tech line and was giving a “don’t bother us” answer of “it’s on the spec card”.
Here is the cam card below:
My question is about the installed centerline.
Do they mean that they grind it on 109° and I’M supposed to manually advance it 5° via a multi key crank sprocket to 104°?
OR
Do they mean that they already grind the 5° into the cam and if you line it up “dot to dot” (and everything else is correct) it will already be at 104°?
The reason I’m asking is that (usually) these specs are in 2° increments. A 9 slot sprocket is in 2° steps... but they want 5°?
That’s why I’m questioning this. If I have to manually advance it I’d have to use the 6° key way and end up at 103° (again assuming everything else is correct).

Any thought are appreciated. Thanks!

upload_2020-10-13_14-35-55.png
 
HotRod777 said:
I’ll pre-game my question by saying yes, I know how to and that I should degree all camshafts. I also have the tools required to do that. I’m just looking for an explanation as to how Hughes specs their cams and how they write their cam cards. I contacted their tech line and was giving a “don’t bother us” answer of “it’s on the spec card”.
Here is the cam card below:
My question is about the installed centerline.
Do they mean that they grind it on 109° and I’M supposed to manually advance it 5° via a multi key crank sprocket to 104°?
OR
Do they mean that they already grind the 5° into the cam and if you line it up “dot to dot” (and everything else is correct) it will already be at 104°?
The reason I’m asking is that (usually) these specs are in 2° increments. A 9 slot sprocket is in 2° steps... but they want 5°?
That’s why I’m questioning this. If I have to manually advance it I’d have to use the 6° key way and end up at 103° (again assuming everything else is correct).

Any thought are appreciated. Thanks!

View attachment 1715612195
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Haven’t personally used Hughes but can advise that cam industry practice is to supply the cam so as that when installed dot to dot (given everything else is correct) the advertised centrelines will be achieved.
 
From their web site.

All Hughes Engines camshafts are ground with some advance in them. This means if the camshaft is degreed-in to the specs on the cam card it will be advanced to match whatever the cam card says is ground into it. However, this does not mean if you install the sprockets “dot-to-dot” it will be advanced properly. It should be, but you don’t know for sure unless you check it. (You DO NOT need to enter the degrees of advance into any of your calculations. It is already figured in on the card.
 
The cam card says installed center line 104 degrees. Install dot to dot, and check with degree wheel, and dial indicator. If the intake lobe center line is not at 104, adjust with a multi key crank sprocket, or a offset cam bushing.
 
Charrlie_S said:
The cam card says installed center line 104 degrees. Install dot to dot, and check with degree wheel, and dial indicator. If the intake lobe center line is not at 104, adjust with a multi key crank sprocket, or a offset cam bushing.
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This ^^^^^ is the answer you're looking for.

In a perfect world, installed dot to dot, you'd be at 104 ICL. But it's not perfect. Do like @Charrlie_S said. install dot to dot. Wheel it. See where it is. Adjust as necessary.

And here's the thing. Most cam companies are VERY proprietary regarding any advance they "grind into" a camshaft. I've found more often than not, you get a shitty answer when asking that question.......ESPECIALLY with Hughes. I basically got the same thing years ago when I asked the same question. Basically a "shut up and do what we say" kinda answer. You can just imagine "MY" response. LMAO
 
Back in the day they used to put 4* in. In the instructions it says if you're 1 degree off, put it together. 2 or more, correct it. If correcting gets you to only 1 degree off, put it together. Don't worry about any other numbers except what's on the card. The last three cams from Hughes that I have degreed have been nuts on. Your results may vary.
 
Charrlie_S said:
The cam card says installed center line 104 degrees. Install dot to dot, and check with degree wheel, and dial indicator. If the intake lobe center line is not at 104, adjust with a multi key crank sprocket, or a offset cam bushing.
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the replies. I guess, to me, with the above being true they “should” have the cam card say:
Lobe separation 109°
Installs at 104°
In my opinion that would be clearer...
Thanks again.
 
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HotRod777 said:
Thanks for all the replies. I guess, to me, with the above being true they “should” have the cam card say:
Lobe separation 109°
Installed centerline IS 104°
In my opinion that would be clearer...
Thanks again.
Click to expand...
Well that is exactly what the card says. Don’t over think it. When it says installed centerline 104. Then with you degree wheel do what you have to to install in at 104. I have found that usually turns out to me having to advance it. and yes I have installed a few of their cams. My 360 Dart has a HEH2328AL in it.
 
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I'm curious to see how it works out. That is a lot of lift for the duration, and tighter lash then I'm used to working with.
 
Charrlie_S said:
I'm curious to see how it works out. That is a lot of lift for the duration, and tighter lash then I'm used to working with.
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Here is the result. It degreed in at 105° dot to dot. Their sheet said if it’s an option to prefer 1° more advance then 1° less... so I used the 2° advance key way and closed it up. It’s stock bore and I used an NOS .020 steel shim on assembly. I did the exhaust manifold mod and die-ground the outlet open to an honest 2.25” to match the head pipe. I made a head pipe out of some mandrel bends down to just past the torsion bar crossmember. Then there is a Thrush welded (FM40 knock-off) that then has a 2.5” 12” long shorty cherry bomb welded directly to its outlet. I then welded a stick of 3” over the cherry bomb outlet that extends to just in front of the axle with a turndown. It sounds “ok”... honestly I was expecting a bit more rumpy idle from a whiplash but I guess the slants just don’t produce enough wind (in stock longblock form) and the manifold (not headers) isn’t helping either. It’s not fast but it’s stronger then it was and sound better at idle. Good enough that the intake makes sense. Hope this review might help someone choose (or not choose) a Whiplash for their slant.
Video link:
 
105 is actually one degress LESS advance, but it won't hurt a thing. Sounds pretty smooth for a Whiplash cam.
 
RustyRatRod said:
105 is actually one degress LESS advance, but it won't hurt a thing. Sounds pretty smooth for a Whiplash cam.
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Correct, it’s was 105° dot to dot. That is why I then moved the crank keyway to +2° and buttoned it up... so it’s installed at 103°
And yes, I was also expecting more lump.
 
HotRod777 said:
Correct, it’s was 105° dot to dot. That is why I then moved the crank keyway to +2° and buttoned it up... so it’s installed at 103°
And yes, I was also expecting more lump.
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Oh ok. Yes, that's a more acceptable position than 105.
 
HotRod777 said:
It sounds “ok”... honestly I was expecting a bit more rumpy idle from a whiplash but I guess the slants just don’t produce enough wind (in stock longblock form) and the manifold (not headers) isn’t helping either.
Click to expand...

Rumpyness is a result of duration/overlap. This cam does not have much of either.
The mildest cam I ever used on a slant was a old Crane Cam. Mildest they made back in the '70's.
Lift .434
adv dur 264
.050 dur 222
 
That cam actually does have a generous amount of overlap.
Hughes FT cams are usually rated at .008 tappet rise, and seem to have acceleration ramps totaling about 46*
from .050 to advertized, but it's hard to say with a solid, on account of the lash takes some of that away.
So by guessing;
I'd guess the advertized specs on that cam might be 256/252/109 and from that, the overlap would be 36*. That is quite a bit. But to get all of it, the install would have to be 116*.... which would generate an Ica of 58*, a pretty late closing intake, so you would need a lot of cylinder pressure for that to not get real soft off the line.
By advancing that cam to the spec of 104*, the Effective overlap shrinks to 24*, and the Intake closes much earlier (52*) to maintain some cylinder pressure. That's the way those cams work.
And they have to be like that to have enough powerband to work with the wide-ratio transmissions that are run behind them, and/or stock type Convertors.

If you had a close-ratio 5-speed M/T, or a 2800 stall TC/904, in that thing with a higher Scr say like 9.5,
THEN, you could reset the timing of that same cam to split the overlap which is 116* installed, and get the max effective overlap. But IMO, that cam would then be the wrong cam for the new combo.
All in all, for a stock compression engine, what you now have is pretty good.
 
AJ/FormS said:
That cam actually does have a generous amount of overlap.
Hughes FT cams are usually rated at .008 tappet rise, and seem to have acceleration ramps totaling about 46*
from .050 to advertized, but it's hard to say with a solid, on account of the lash takes some of that away.
So by guessing;
I'd guess the advertized specs on that cam might be 256/252/109 and from that, the overlap would be 36*. That is quite a bit. But to get all of it, the install would have to be 116*.... which would generate an Ica of 58*, a pretty late closing intake, so you would need a lot of cylinder pressure for that to not get real soft off the line.
By advancing that cam to the spec of 104*, the Effective overlap shrinks to 24*, and the Intake closes much earlier (52*) to maintain some cylinder pressure. That's the way those cams work.
And they have to be like that to have enough powerband to work with the wide-ratio transmissions that are run behind them, and/or stock type Convertors.

If you had a close-ratio 5-speed M/T, or a 2800 stall TC/904, in that thing with a higher Scr say like 9.5,
THEN, you could reset the timing of that same cam to split the overlap which is 116* installed, and get the max effective overlap. But IMO, that cam would then be the wrong cam for the new combo.
All in all, for a stock compression engine, what you now have is pretty good.
Click to expand...

I don't know what you mean by "effective" over lap. Over lap is ground into the cam, It is not adjustable. They are not giving the adv duration and at what lift it is measured. I would like to see the lobe graph.
 
AJ/FormS said:
That cam actually does have a generous amount of overlap.
Hughes FT cams are usually rated at .008 tappet rise, and seem to have acceleration ramps totaling about 46*
from .050 to advertized, but it's hard to say with a solid, on account of the lash takes some of that away.
So by guessing;
I'd guess the advertized specs on that cam might be 256/252/109 and from that, the overlap would be 36*. That is quite a bit. But to get all of it, the install would have to be 116*.... which would generate an Ica of 58*, a pretty late closing intake, so you would need a lot of cylinder pressure for that to not get real soft off the line.
By advancing that cam to the spec of 104*, the Effective overlap shrinks to 24*, and the Intake closes much earlier (52*) to maintain some cylinder pressure. That's the way those cams work.
And they have to be like that to have enough powerband to work with the wide-ratio transmissions that are run behind them, and/or stock type Convertors.

If you had a close-ratio 5-speed M/T, or a 2800 stall TC/904, in that thing with a higher Scr say like 9.5,
THEN, you could reset the timing of that same cam to split the overlap which is 116* installed, and get the max effective overlap. But IMO, that cam would then be the wrong cam for the new combo.
All in all, for a stock compression engine, what you now have is pretty good.
Click to expand...

Charrlie_S said:
I don't know what you mean by "effective" over lap. Over lap is ground into the cam, It is not adjustable. They are not giving the adv duration and at what lift it is measured. I would like to see the lobe graph.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the excellent, detailed response. Overall I’m happy enough with the results. On a positive note the car did not lose any drivability and with the 3.55’s and 833 it’s a very fun car to zip around in. I’m sure most of us have chosen “too much cam” at some point in the past resulting in great sound but the car actually got lazy and slower. Yes I know there’s no such thing as ‘too much cam, just not enough motor’... lol.
This whole exercise was to make the car neat, interesting and fun without dumping a ton of money into a slant when a 273 conversion would cost about the same. We’ve all been into that rabbit hole of “while it’s apart, mind as well also do this, etc”
All of a sudden I’d have $4,000 into a slant that might make a staggering (maybe) 275hp. Doing the cam, duel intake and gears set me back about $1k total and I think I got a lot of return on that investment.

As far as “effective” overlap, I know what he means. Yes, the overlap is ground into the cam but the overlap period is effected by when it occurs (where it’s aligned during installation) during the pistons movement. Moving the installed centerline around will change how much suck, blow, or dead dwell time that overlap period of the cam will see.
(Pardon my French, lol)
 
HotRod777 said:
As far as “effective” overlap, I know what he means. Yes, the overlap is ground into the cam but the overlap period is effected by when it occurs (where it’s aligned during installation) during the pistons movement. Moving the installed centerline around will change how much suck, blow, or dead dwell time that overlap period of the cam will see.
(Pardon my French, lol)
Click to expand...

I'm glad you're happy with the cam. The numbers are different then what I am used to seeing, and was wondering about it. As for "effective" overlap, I had never heard that term, before. I need to do some reading/research about that.
 
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