Anyone know Holley Commander 950's? programming?

Fuel and Air Systems

  1. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    "Somebody stop me!!!" I'm amassing way to much EFI crap. Bought a pretty much complete Holley Commander 950, large bore TBI system for less than 400 bucks. I've been researching and slowly finding info on it

    I've found that it can be flashed to "Pro" by Holley and I "hear" the updated software is better, and that allows the use of a wideband sensor, which "ain't cheap."

    The system is not installed but.........

    I came up with an old Thinkpad, Whinehozed98 and the software runs. I powered up the box and successfully connected with the computer. (Had to make a programming cable)

    The "guy" over at the Holley forum claims you can't program them with the factory narrow band sensor. Any thoughts?

    Some photos of the system, and the software running. It's powered up with a bench supply, just the box itself, no sensors connected.
     

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  2. jos51700

    jos51700 Well-Known Member

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    You can't program with a narrow band. The problem is you have to get it right for the narrow band sensor to be right. If the mix gets very far off, the sensor goes stupid. Wideband O2's aren't easy to come by cheap. They're very in demand. I paid about $170 on Fleabay. It depends on if you want a gauge with it or not.

    FWIW, make sure that your system doesn't JUST need the sensor. The sensor by itself is not too expensive. What I had to buy was the sensor and it's interpretive hardware (that included a guage). I'm not familiar with the Commander system. It may or may not have what you need to read the sensor. If not, you gotta buy the guage.
     
  3. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    I haven't called Holley, but it looks like you can get a "package deal" IE Holley will flash update the ECU, new software, and the complete wideband setup for 350 or so with shipping.

    My plan is to do a "temporary" install, leaving the unused and unhooked low pressure pump in place and unplugged, so I can easily change back to carb. Run the system long enough to find out that it's at least functional, and then pull it off and if it's OK, send it in

    I didn't realize that wide band (just sensors) were SO dammed expensive.
     
  4. KitCarlson

    KitCarlson Well-Known Member

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    I have no experience with the Commander however:

    I think you can buy an LC-1 from Innovate for about $200 with gauge and sensor. It is possible to setup the LC-1 to simulate a narrow band sensor for the analog output. You can still read the WB A/F mixture over the data connection for tuning purposes. Narrow band control is typically bang-bang, if too rich, it goes to lean, and back to rich so the average is just right at about 50% duty cycle.

    In the work I do, I tune open loop, and properly tune before closing the loop.
     
  5. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Thanks, I found that on the internet, and although I have not checked with Holley on a firm price, it appears I can get the ECU flashed, the updated software, and the Holley wideband kit for about 325 plus shipping. So when you add the cost of having Holley flash up the ECU, plus another 200 for the LC-1, it amounts to about the same thing.

    (You don't need narrow band with an LC-/ LM-1, you can interface it right into the Holley with the upgraded firmware.)

    The software is capable of indicating and logging this info, so I see no real need for a separate A/F indicator. BUT I certainly will think this over!!! Thanks.

    I did read through the old manual tonight, and I got the impression "I can do this." It might take some time, and around here, the BIGGEST holdback is a good stretch of straight LOW USE road that I can legally make 60-67 mph. Much of the surrounding country roads are 35-55, and most are 45 or less. This leaves I-90 and highway 95, both poor choices for "tuning."

    The plan at this point is to do a "sloppy" installation (temporary) to see if the overall system appears to be functional regardless of tune. If that happens, I'll yank the ECU and send it in for reflash and work from there.
     
  6. KitCarlson

    KitCarlson Well-Known Member

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    You can save about $50 without the gauge. You can still read it via the PC. The wideband O2 are expensive due to the electronics that feeds the sensor, they have dropped. Still 10x cheaper than the 5 gas analyzer I purchased years ago.


    Good luck! Looking forward to your progress and a great running car. Tunning is a matter of divide and conquer. It is necessary to identify the operating conditions, and make the changes with the correct means of adjustments.
     
  7. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Well today I literally "threw" the system at the Dart. I wanted to see how close it is to running or needing work/ parts. So it's ugly. But it DOES run. Cold idle is way too high, but after warming up, it's actually in the ballpark. I was unable to drive it and tune it, as it was pouring rain, and I just plain "ain't gonna." Giving it a quick goose or two in gear with the brakes on resulted in NOT stalling.

    I think I need to put a spacer under the throttle body, the simple way to get the air filter to clear. It's a short little stump!! 'S a good inch shorter than the AFB and the air cleaner bottom pan "hits everything."
     

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  8. KitCarlson

    KitCarlson Well-Known Member

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    That is great progress!

    Sounds like you are ready to start tuning. Enjoy.
     
  9. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    I 'bout dropped my jaw!!! Went to RadShack yesterday and they actually had an DB9 extension cable in stock!!! So my little inverter runs the PS for the old Thinkpad 600X, on the seat of the car.

    It runs and drives "but not well." The plan now, is to try a little tuning, then yank it back off and send the box in for the flash upgrade (and better software.)

    I'm considering a PLX wideband, 'ya know anything about them? Heck of a lot cheaper than the Holley one.

    For less than the same price as the Holley ECU flash + wideband sensor/ controller (no meter)

    I can get the PLX with meter and the Holley box upgrade. Also the PLX display is a multifunction deal if you want to add differnt sensor inputs later on.

    Sensor / controller only:

    http://www.plxdevices.com/product_info.php?id=SEMOSMAFRV2

    Kit with meter:

    http://www.plxdevices.com/product_info.php?id=WDBDSMAFR_DM6
     
  10. BillGrissom

    BillGrissom Well-Known Member

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    That $350 price for the software upgrade and a wideband O2 kit sounds suspiciously low. The later lists for ~$850 at Summit, etc., which an amazingly high price.

    I have the same Commander 950 TBI kit (paid $600 used, you lucked out), plus a spare ECU ($120 used). Forgot if mine is Pro. Haven't installed yet. One part I don't see in your photo is the cable to connect to a GM 8-pin HEI module. That costs $80 new at Summitt, but is just connectors, so you might make your own. With that, the Commander can control spark timing. See jkirk's post for a photo and TrailBeast sells the HEI setup new.

    I understand it works fine with a standard narrow-band O2 sensor, and has a connector for that. I think most new cars still use narrow-band O2. Until very recently, wide-band O2 was a very expensive after-market option, other than a few VW's and such. You can get wideband sensors for ~$45 new or $20 used today, but still need a conditioning box. I have a ~$100 used setup (no display), plus a hobbyist board someone started that I got cheap. If you do install a wideband sensor, make sure you are ready with the conditioning box. Don't ever run it without a box or it can clog up from soot. The conditioning runs a heater that burns soot off. Wideband sensors don't need to be close to the engine and some kits even clamp them up the tail-pipe. However, closer is best for closed-loop control and there are newer sensors that are faster and better for that.
     
  11. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    I don't have the GM adapter. I also did not have the serial cable, and made one. I intend to do the same if/ when I go to the GM controllable ignition. In fact, I'm going down to the parts stores later for some things and will ask about connectors

    UPDATE:

    I decided to yank the system off the car until I get the box upgraded, and so "threw" the Pro-Jection 2D system on there, equally as temporary. I have it fired, but not tuned. I'm about to run down and get some "stuff" so I can mount the box in the car and reach the control pots


    http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=205959&highlight=holley,&page=2


    [​IMG]
     
  12. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Member

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    IMHO- you would be money ahead if you started with a GM based EFI system.
    It can be put together most of the time for less then buying those old holley systems and you will have a completely tuneable timing and fuel control system.

    WBO2 is nice but certainly isn't required.

    If you were really ambitious you could install MPFI and use that commander throttlebody with the injectors removed as your air control.
    Or for TBI you could use that 2 bbl throttle body and replace the old holley injectors with a GM injector pod. it's a direct replacement.

    Something to keep in mind is you need to run a CFM calculator for your engine.
    The 2 bbl holley/BBC TBI has 2" bores and flows near 700cfm. About the same as the 4bbl TBI.
    Of course for MPFI you can grab just about any late model throttlebody since it only has to flow air.

    Here's the same 4 barrel with the injector pod removed.
    I also drilled and tapped the IAC port on the front to add idle control.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

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  13. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Thanks, Bill, but I'm in a little deep now.

    I've got the Commander 950, for which I just ordered the upgrade flash

    I've got parts of a Ferd MAP an also have a MAF sensor for a similar system.

    AND I've got parts off a 95? Jeep MP system.

    The Holley system will operate a "batch fired" MP setup, just not sequential.

    What do you need for money/ equipment and software to re-program the GM stuff?


    Also, I went down to NAPA and bought a controllable HEI module, AND they had the proper connectors for that module, about 15 and 21 bucks.

    Last couple of days I've been arguing with the 2D system. Bear in mind it's used and dirty, and "temporary." Because of that, I first installed the Commander and left my Holley red pump in the rear (formerly for the carb) to feed the new Commander pump. The pressure was perfect, I didn't even have to adjust it.

    So when I put the 2D on, I left the pumps as is. Turns out I cannot get the pressure below 30 psi, and the system is erratic. Runs good for awhile, then goes ?? I thought it was going rich, but at one point it backfired "through the carb," so THAT was a leanout.

    I'm going to see about a new regulator diaphragm when I can confirm the part number. Holley, it seems to me, is a little short of SERVICE documentation on these units.

    Also found the add--on O2 sensor harness for the 2D on ebay for cheap. So it can use the Commander 02 sensor.

    By the way, the 4bbl Commander I have is the 900 cfm version.
     
  14. BillGrissom

    BillGrissom Well-Known Member

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    I have had a 2 bbl Pro-jection system on my Newport 383 since 1996. I have used both the analog box and the 2D box you show, the "round-top" injectors and newer "flat-top" that Bill USN-1 mentions that have the Delphi injectors (better and more common). I have several systems, since I might put Pro-jection on my Dart 273. I even got a new upgrade pod w/ flat-tops that Bill mentions, for ~$50 on ebay. The 2 new injectors were worth that.

    It worked OK for years with the analog box and O2 feedback, but I always kept the knobs in close reach. If the O2 LED stopped flashing, I knew it would start quirking up and had to tweak it back. The main problem is it doesn't have enough sensors, particularly no MAP sensor. For wild-cam race engine where you don't care about idle, it is probably OK. They can't use MAP anyway since poor vaccum. With no IAT, it needs teaking from cold mornings to sunny afternoons. Jeep people love them because no tilting fuel bowl and can easily tweak for high altitude, though they do note the quirks.

    Their wiring harness is a mess IMHO. You don't need 16 awg wire for TPS and coolant sensors. You have to cut a big hole in the firewall. One wire pulled out of their stupid crimped connector and disabled me one morning. I swapped in the 2D system to get to work. The original MSD box w/ Weatherpack connectors is more rugged. The 2D box seems quirkier. Twice it went way rich and blew open my muffler, at the exact same spot on the highway near road construction (stray radio signal?). Its only virtures are less clutzy O2 hookup and smaller size. It gets real hot if sunlight hits it and then runs lean. Why didn't they put an O2 LED on the 2D box so you don't "fly blind"?

    Re your fuel pressure control, did you plumb a return line to the tank? If not, the regulator can't work, since a bypass design. I also ran for years on a Holley radial vane pump (blue). I put in the stronger bypass spring kit to run 20 psi. I failed several Holley gear-rotor pumps (you show) early on, but from trying an upstream pusher pump and other bright ideas. I replaced the radial pump when the body started leaking (porous casting?). I now have the gear-rotor pump low in the engine bay and no problems for years. Ignore Holley's instructions on having to mount the pump near the tank. Hard to get to and it makes a racket behind the rear seat.

    You should have gone junkyarding for the HEI setup. A GM cable runs from module to their coil (use that). Snip the computer input cable and coil pickup connector and you are done for ~$15. Grab the knock sensor and module while in there. It screws in your drain plug just like the SBC and has a single 5 V "knock" output. Commander 950 can use that or just light an LED warning.

    I was just bidding on another Commander 950 MPFI setup on ebay, but dropped out at $380 and it sold for $405, which was still a good price. I might need one for my slant. You got a great deal at $400 since yours has the throttle body included. They usually sell for $600, but since more "latest/greatest" stuff from Holley us bottom feeders can move up.
     
  15. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Yes I most certainly have a return. The "test run" of the Commander worked just fine with the two pumps, I didn't even have to change the setting.

    I wanted new connectors, hoping to avoid corrosion problems with unknown junkyard stuff. That may be wishful thinking, but I have 'em now

    I may bet busy and "hose around" the red pump (in the rear) long enough to see if this is a regulator problem even if I have to test fire it from a gas can. In fact I may do that---run the injection pump by itself from a fuel can to see if the two pumps are too much, or a regulator problem..

    No more than I have into this 2D, it might be handy for a spare
     
  16. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Member

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    Sequential is kind of over hyped.
    On our engines designed for a carb it's sort of like putting lipstick on a pig. it makes it look better but your not really going to see any improvement.
    MPFI does improve the throttle response just like TBI improves over a carb. But sequential is just not going to give the same ROI.
    What people don't realize is MPFI was designed to meet the newer emissions standards not for performance. They just started to optimize the engine to take advantage of the system.

    Sequential was just another advancement for emissions, especially at idle when the fuel drops out of suspension from the air.


    For the GM TBI, when I started 12yrs ago i could gather the used parts and install a complete system for about $200. The chip programmer is about $80 and the chips are $5 for the reprogramable ones.
    All the software is free.
    so for $300 you could have a complete GM TBI system running and tuned for your engine.
    For engines with a big cam it takes a little more tuning knowledge since the valve overlap is designed to dump raw fuel out the exhaust. This completely goes against everything the computer thinks should be happening so once the basic fuel table is set, we simply turn off the O2 at idle and allow the system to operate in open loop mode just like during a cold start in the morning before the o2 warms up. This is also how the holley system works without the O2 add on system.

    Now for the 4 barrel TBI's it would get a lot more involved but has been done. or installing 2 BBC 2 barrel throttle bodies on a tunnel ram manifold.

    IMO, unless you have a complete fuel and ignition controlled system it's kind of a waste of time. fuel is fuel and when it's right it's right 14.7:1 steady cruise and 12.5:1 WOT. the power is made in the timing. But if you are simply WOT down the drag strip then there's not a whole lot of work to get it right either.
    That's where the WBO2 comes in handy.

    For a daily driver you really can't beat the simplicity of the TBI system.
    There are no knobs to tweak or things to change. It's just like jumping in a modern car, turn the key and drive. No tune ups, no maint.
    Drive to the coast or to the mountains and the system self adjust as you drive.
    I'm also into 4wd's so there's a big bonus for me when off roading!!

    You can read all about how to DIY here.
    http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=75
     
  17. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Thanks for the link, I've been to "binder planet" I find it incredible that one of the most unpopular makes of vehicles has such a huge DIY/ hacker following.
     
  18. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Member

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    Some people think EFI is vehicle/engine specific but the system has no idea what it is bolted to so it can be used on any engine.

    i have used it on my classic mini cooper with DIS and on V8's with MPFI.

    Lots of options.
     
  19. BillGrissom

    BillGrissom Well-Known Member

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    The Pro-jection instructions warn to have less than 4 psi return pressure, as I recall, so should be the same for the Commander since the TB's look the same. I am currently running a carb on my Dart just to get going and I measure 9 psi return with my EFI fuel pump setup (Walbro, 190 lph I recall). I had rigged a 6 psi bypass reg to run the carb until I found the return was higher than that as is. I use the 1/4" emissions tube on a new sender for return, which is the likely main restriction. Of course, the back pressure depends on the volume flow of your fuel pump.
     
  20. KitCarlson

    KitCarlson Well-Known Member

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    Del,

    I was having fuel pressure problems as you experienced however it was on a higher pressure ~50 psi for Mopar 2.2L turbo. I used a stainless steel pressure sensor from digi-key. The part number is MSP3101P4A1-ND. The price has went significantly up since the last time I purchased. I think of it as a tool. It reads up to 100 PSI and puts out a 1 to 4V signal with a 12V supply. I attached it to the fuel rail and data logged the pressure with my EMS. It is a safe way of fuel measurement. No fuel lines in the passenger compartment. I found the problem was in the new fuel pump, it failed when warm due to a leak in the pump output.

    Most injection systems regulate fuel pressure with compensation for manifold pressure. This keeps differential pressure at the injectors constant, such that the fuel flow is then consistently metered with "on time". It cuts pressure at idle and increases pressure with boost or WOT. With MAP also logged, it is possible to verify operation of the fuel regulation.

    It is possible that the regulator and fuel pressure is fine, but there is a problem in the fuel enrichment settings based on temperature sensors. I have found that the engine coolant sensor is for short term enrichment. It has to do with enrichments for starting and warm up. The fuel map should only be tuned when at normal operating temperature. The intake air temperature sensor is used for air density corrections based on temperature. It is important to have the correct sensor and location. The hotter the air is, the less air and less fuel is needed. It follows the classic equation PV = nRT, T is in degrees Kelvin. There is also the need to limit going too lean, if the temperature gets too high. I clamp at ~95C, and for air cooled engines enrich to cool.
     
  21. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    UPDATE The fuel pressure problem with the 2D system was backpressure in the return. I ran a temporary 3/8 line to to some testing. Got it running, but still not tuned as I'd want. Who knows, the injectors may be dirty in this thing. What I dont understand is, the Commander system regulated just fine. There is no separate manifold line to the regulator -- it's built into the throttle body. I had the regulator apart in the course of things today and it looks clean, no gum, dirt, etc. Same pump in both cases. Again, I left the "red" pump in the rear (that was feeding the carb) and temporarily installed the TBI pump low, up front, where the mechanical fuel pump would be.

    I have "a couple" LOL of old refrigeration manifolds, and used them to check pump and back pressure. Went down to the appliance parts joint and bought some service fittings, they are 1/4 flare with schrader valve and cap, and 1/8 pipe. Put them into a tee in both lines, so I can check pressure and return backpressure.
     
  22. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    This thing is stupid simple. The only sensor it has is the TPS, the coolant sensor, and pressure regulator. You can buy an optional O2 harness, and I in fact found one fer cheap on 'th bay

    For now, I temporarily wired the temp sensor to ground through 200 ohms, a warm sensor. There is no charge temp sensor.



    By the way, how do you insure the lack of a ground loop problem on a one wire (Bosch) O2 sensor? I was thinking of welding a steel tab onto the tail of the collector, silver-brazing a chuck of copper to that, and grounding it to the frame rail, and then pull a shielded O2 wire from there.
     
  23. KitCarlson

    KitCarlson Well-Known Member

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    I would think the ground loop could be reduced by grounding the ecu at the engine (head w/O2, and good continuity exhaust to head). This should be done to keep the O2 ground voltage nearly the same as the ECU ground that is used for measuring the O2 voltage. The O2 output is very high impedance so you want to avoid any loading. The tab idea at the O2 and to the ECU ground point should help. I would not connect to chassis.

    By not having a temperature sensor you are missing normal enrichments that need to happen for starting and warm-up. I would think this would require you to manually fiddle with settings to keep it running. O2 feedback is not a cure all for mixture control, especially narrow band. I can go into this more if you want me to ramble on.
     
  24. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Should have explained. "For now" I'm monitoring the O2 with a digi meter. It's a Bosch single wire. I don't have it hooked to the Pro-Jection 2D yet as I don't have the (optional) harness yet. It is designed to be runnable ??? with no O2 sensor.

    One thing I'm concerned about is that I have headers, so it seems a "long way" from the collector to the head (through the bolts) and to the engine block.

    Actually, I wasn't sure I wanted to try and run this thing. I may just get busy and install the temp sender tomorrow. I would have today, but by the time I got the replacement, if not temporary, return line in, and got the pressure issue resolved, my back was "done for the day."

    I'm afraid the 67 has become a "test bed" of sorts.
     
  25. KitCarlson

    KitCarlson Well-Known Member

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    It might be best to use a 4 wire O2. Trying is learning.
     
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