Best way to flush engine after rocker arm failure?

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Steven190

Steven190

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My excitement has been crushed. Got a set of the new Trick Flow heads for the LA.

Used the Harland Sharp rocker arms and new ARP bolts for the stands. Measured the push rods and got new Smith Bros. to that length. Installed all the new parts and torqued to spec and adjusted the lash to the spec.
The car started and ran well in the garage and Things looked good.
When for a drive and the noise started about a block away, I turned around and by the time I got home the noise got worst. Had good oil pressure at the end of this ordeal.
I pulled the valve covers off and found that the ARP bolts had backed off on the rocker shafts.
This damaged three of the rockers and one of the push rods.
I cleaned up the heads and valve springs with solvent and compressed air and a lot of paper towels.
I am now draining oil and will change the filter ( K&N HP2004)

Like the header says what else should I do or be looking at? I had never had a failure like this before and want to make sure I have done the best.
 
I lost cams in two engines a while ago. While the motor was partially down for repair, I placed small magnets in the motor, in the valley and in the head, in areas where the oil will flow by but not restrict the flow. Also large magnets around the oil filter. Both motors are still running strong.
 
My question would why did the bolts back off???..and is it going to happen again??..
 
This has been the bane of my existence for the last 3 months with my 408... I too just put on some trickflows because of the same problem with a different set of heads.. except my problem went boom real quick.
61669315_10211232848255868_1570818931994656768_n.jpg

I tore the top half of the engine down since I was replacing the heads anyhow, also removed the oil pan and pump. Cleaned and double checked everything then put it all back together with the new heads. I have a baffled oil pan so it tend to trap stuff even with oil changes, it was best to remove it and clean. Do yourself a favor and use studs for the rocker shafts.
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That is my question too, I torqued the bolts down, rotated the engine and re-torqued the bolts, And for good measure did it again. This time I am going to use some red Loctite on them and let them set overnight.

Most of the participles are aluminum so the magnet will be of now use in this application. The oil has a slight metallic tint to it. After I get the replacement parts I will re clean the head and blow them off with compressed air.

This has me worried as to what is going on.
 
Toluene56 said:
This has been the bane of my existence for the last 3 months with my 408... I too just put on some trickflows because of the same problem with a different set of heads.. except my problem went boom real quick.
View attachment 1715349869
I tore the top half of the engine down since I was replacing the heads anyhow, also removed the oil pan and pump. Cleaned and double checked everything then put it all back together with the new heads. I have a baffled oil pan so it tend to trap stuff even with oil changes, it was best to remove it and clean. Do yourself a favor and use studs for the rocker shafts.
View attachment 1715349870
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Thanks I will get a set of studs. I too am wondering what is going on here.
Did you use lash caps?
 
Steven190 said:
Thanks I will get a set of studs. I too am wondering what is going on here.
Did you use lash caps?
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I did have lash caps for a small amount of time to see if I could get the geometry a little nicer with the other heads, but I ended up removing them. I didn't like the idea of more pieces of metal flying around if something got loose. Trickflows seemed to line up quite nice. Although a geometry kit from B3 wouldn't hurt to get it as close to perfect as you can.
 
I think there may be a different issue, I’ve used rocker BOLTS in 3 engines, “big block Mopar” my uncle uses bolts in his 500” procharged 440, and my buddy used bolts in his aluminum 540” b1 headed alcohol deal. Never an issue with any of them, none of which used loctite either
 
It seems that there maybe an issue here with the Trick Flow and/or Harland Sharp.
 
Steven190 said:
It seems that there maybe an issue here with the Trick Flow and/or Harland Sharp.
Click to expand...

I have a hard time understanding how multiple, properly torqued fasteners loosen and back out in the time it takes to go down the block.
 
Flush, Flush and Flush again.

I have used diesel to flush out engines in the past. Don't know the good or bad of it (seals etc). but you can put a lot of flow through the parts of the oil drain back system to flush them. Valve covers on and drain plug out and fill the valve cover fast so they kind of fill up.

As for the supply side???

I have heard of old timers running the engine (no load) with diesel in to help flush things out.

Good luck
 
The B3RE rocker geometry shims comes with rocker bolts. I doubt he would include them if it were a problem.
 
gzig5 said:
I have a hard time understanding how multiple, properly torqued fasteners loosen and back out in the time it takes to go down the block.
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That has me confused too, out of the 10 fasteners 6 were loose only 3 were still torqued the last was not tight, but still in contact with the shaft.
 
Imo, there is a fundamental flaw with the idea of using a fastener that is “too high” strength.

Rotational torque is not what determines if a fastener is tight or not.
Stretch does.

If the associated parts being assembled with the “high strength” fastener won’t facilitate using the correct torque that the fastener needs to achieve the proper amount of stretch...... then it’s not really tight.

On Mopar rocker shafts, you usually can’t get to the required tq rating of a high strength fastener before you start deforming the shaft.

You can band aid it with thread locking compound....... or use a fastener that will get to the correct stretch...... within the tq rating allowed before the shaft starts to distort.

Do the TF heads still use the 5/16” hold down bolts?
What’s the tq rating they recommend for them in the instructions?

Also, test fit the shafts into the stands to make sure the shafts are “seated” solidly into the stands, with full contact.

Edit- can’t seem to undo the italics without retyping the whole thing.
 
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A typical ARP 180,000psi 5/16” fastener is listed as using a tq value of 24ft/lbs....... with their lube....... not oil.
The oil tq value would be higher than 24ft/lbs(one would have to call ARP for that info), but if you tq’d it to 24 with oil, it has inadequate stretch...... and therefore isn’t really tight.

And none of that takes into account whether or not the shaft can withstand the clamping load of a 180,000psi fastener tq’d to 24ft/lbs using ARP lube without deforming.

For comparison, a grade 5 bolt is 120,000 psi and a grade 8 is 150,000.
Std tq rating for a 5/16” grade 5 is 13 coarse/14 fine.
For grade 8 it’s 18 coarse/20 fine.

The factory spec is 17.

An ARP 180,000psi fastener tq’d to any of the above specs is loose........ especially if you used oil instead of ARP lube.
 
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Steven190 said:
That is my question too, I torqued the bolts down, rotated the engine and re-torqued the bolts, And for good measure did it again. This time I am going to use some red Loctite on them and let them set overnight.

Most of the participles are aluminum so the magnet will be of now use in this application. The oil has a slight metallic tint to it. After I get the replacement parts I will re clean the head and blow them off with compressed air.

This has me worried as to what is going on.
Click to expand...
Those shafts are pretty hard and I'm not sure if it's possible with a regular bolt.. but maybe with an arp ... you cracked by it over torquing it.
 
The Trick Flow sheet says 25 Ft.- lbs, which I did.
Yes they are 5/16th X 2 1/4" long
The old set of heads had Allen head cap screws in the rocker shafts. Even with them I do not know if they would even stretch with that torque in aluminum heads.
I am wondering if some sort of lock washer would help? The shaft caps are larger and were the bolt goes through is flat. Just a thought.

A side note that I missed when reading it
TR recommends their stud kit to mount rocker shaft, to prevent stripping the pedestals.
 
I’m not clear on what you used for hardware to put the shafts on the new heads.
Do the heads or rockers come with rocker shaft bolts?

I do not know if they would even stretch with that torque in aluminum heads.
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Rest assured...... if the bolt/stud isn’t stretched the correct amount....... it’s coming loose.

Since most people running aluminum heads aren’t experiencing the problem you did...... it would appear their bolts have been stretched.
 
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The rocker assembly had no mounting bolts, so I like the ARP stuff so I got 10 5/16 x 2 1/4 bolts and washers.
I found that TR says to use a stud kit TFS-61400613, so I will get one to put back on with. I am wondering if it is an ARP product, the head stud kit form TR was.
 
If it’s ARP...... use their lube on the nuts and threads(not necessary on the lower portion that threads into the block).

I wouldn’t be surprised if the bolts needed to be cycled into the heads(to full tq) to burnish the threads in the heads.
 
stroked340 said:
My question would why did the bolts back off???..and is it going to happen again??..
Click to expand...

Exactly this ^^^^^^^ Cleaning it up is good and all, but "MY" big worry would be WHY did it do it? You need to solve that mystery before it goes back together.
 
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That is my biggest thoughts too, what happened, I have never had any thing back out like these did. I have been building doing this since I was 13, I am now 72.
So this is why I asked the forum as to what they thought. I guess just throw money at it and it will go away.
 
Steven190 said:
The rocker assembly had no mounting bolts, so I like the ARP stuff so I got 10 5/16 x 2 1/4 bolts and washers.
I found that TR says to use a stud kit TFS-61400613, so I will get one to put back on with. I am wondering if it is an ARP product, the head stud kit form TR was.
Click to expand...
Hughes sells the ARP stud kit with all the info required, using them on mine with their tool steel holders.
 
Steven190 said:
That is my biggest thoughts too, what happened, I have never had any thing back out like these did. I have been building doing this since I was 13, I am now 72.
So this is why I asked the forum as to what they thought. I guess just throw money at it and it will go away.
Click to expand...

If I had to "GUESS" I would say that somehow the shaft didn't tighten down all the way. How does the other side look?
 
Studs would be the best way to go. Is it possible that the bolts were slightly too long and bottoming out and thus not torqued down properly?
 
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