blue smoke on acceleration , dramatic increase

Dan the man

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Here's a little thing that I learned a long time ago and I mentioned it here and then somebody else I think Mopar Joe or somebody made a video where they did like a ford or some **** with a torque play yada yada yada anyways he left out the important part which is what I learned a while back. Which is a torque plate does not simulate two things and those two things are the actual clamping and Distortion forces from the full density of the cylinder head & main torque forces and 2... the temperatures at which the engine is ran ...everything changes shape with heat.. so even using a torque plate, it's not going to be round when it's fully warmed up UNLESS you can get the engine completely warmed up while honing it...even then the temp spikes ...and it's worth about 2 hp at 7000+ and that's a satirical guesstimate based in the reality that's it's not worth the cha$e for about 98% of us.
So your saying that having a block honed with torque plates is worthless? Is this why top engine builder's use them? Did you learn this from experience, not trying to sound like a jerk but you're the only person I know of that said that about torque plates.
 

MOPAROFFICIAL

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So your saying that having a block honed with torque plates is worthless? Is this why top engine builder's use them? Did you learn this from experience, not trying to sound like a jerk but you're the only person I know of that said that about torque plates.
I'm saying while you may cure an amount of distortion.. you're only simulating/creating some/a different type of the actual distortion that exists in a running motor. If you're spending the extra in hopes of a perfectly round cylinder bore.. you're getting screwed.

Check a cylinder with no mains torqued and no heads.. note it...pen mark the cyl where you measure and take 6 cross measurements.
Then bolt the head on and check it again, note all 6 points of reference.
Now toque the main caps, measure again and note.

Now put take the caps off and stick a crank in and retorque..and check.
Now take and cook it all up to 220 degrees and take the measurements again.

Compare them all.
You'll find the measurements all changed and the roundest hole measuresd of any of them was the block, cold, by itself with no head.
Use a torque plate when you hone all you want but after you bolt a head on and warm up the engine.. it is not perfectly round..which is what the plates are supposedly intentioned for.
That's what I'm saying.
 
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Dan the man

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I'm saying while you may cure an amount of distortion.. you're only simulating/creating some/a different type of the actual distortion that exists in a running motor. If you're spending the extra in hopes of a perfectly round cylinder bore.. you're getting screwed.

Check a cylinder with no mains torqued and no heads.. note it...pen mark the cyl where you measured and take 6 cross measurements.
Then bolt the head on and check it again, note all 6 points of reference.
Now toque the main caps, measure again anand note.

Now put take the caps off and stick a crank in and retorque..and check.
Now take and cook it all up to 220 degrees and take the measurements again.

Compare then all.
You find the roundest hole in any of them but the block by itself, cold/ temp it was homed at.
That's what I'm saying.
Sounds like I should forget about having the block honed with a torque plate. I'm going to be doing a full rebuild with a cam,heads, intake, good flowing exhaust system
 

MOPAROFFICIAL

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Sounds like I should forget about having the block honed with a torque plate. I'm going to be doing a full rebuild with a cam,heads, intake, good flowing exhaust system
I'm not saying not to... I'm just saying I myself will not pay extra to have it done anymore. If their bore n hone job includes the use of one...fine. I just remember jumping peoples **** long ago when they didn't use a torque plate ..making a big deal out of something that turned out was not a big deal once I finally learned/wrapped my mind around it. A guy had our local shop do a block for him, insisted on using his own torque plate he had for this particular motor 'odd ball' and so machinist did that...guy picked it up along with his torque plate and took it home. Guy bolts head on and measures bore with motor upside down and finds it's not round.. proceeds to call and ***** out local machinist asking why he didn't use the plate... machinist said he did and to do him a favor and remove the head and bolt the torque plate on and recheck...guy says okay... guy calls back and apologizes... " I don't understand.. the torque plate supposed to make it just like the cylinder head but it's round with a torque plate and pulled out of wack .0008 with the head.."
..then the came the lesson from the machinist.

Do it, just dont think for one sec that it's magic and round after the head goes on, mains torqued and warmed up..lol
 

furrystump

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This is happening on acceleration not deceleration? If it were head gasket, I would expect the dreaded milkshake. No milkshake? It could have pushed the fire ring towards the valley, but not enough to leak coolant, but it would smoke constantly. My vote, ring seal. Another vote for dry then wet compression test. Even though an adjacent cylinder is going down hill says gasket
 

golden boy

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THE MYSTERY IS SOLVED!
Head gasket ! blew the fire ring in towards the intake manifold exposing it to the crankcase , presumably sucking oil into the cylinder and out the exhaust. This has turned out to be an interesting thread to read as many conclusions were drawn from assumptions. To set the record straight. this engine was purchased from Blueprint in 2011. was base model with iron heads. had an incident in 2016 with ring gap/land failure. Blueprint sold me new pistons ( 8) and rings at a reduced rate . interestingly the rings had been pre gapped and installed on the pistons. i checked the ring gaps and they were @ 30 thou. (top). i increased to 32 thou. ( remember the KB recommend was, and still is 26). one cyl was always 15% lower than the rest as a result of a small divot in the cyl wall as a result of the previous piston failure. occasional puff of smoke was noted from time to time. Disappointing, but not to serious as this 67 Barracuda was laying down 12.58 's wth 3:55 gears and 904 w/ stock torque converter. thanks to all who made helpful suggestions. by the way, honing cylinders with main caps , and head bolts torqued to spec is the next best thing to having torque plates for every engine you build. ( need to have washers under head bolts to simulate head ).
 

furrystump

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4E989129-D280-43E6-941E-1E580345937C.jpeg
So, studs or bolts? What gasket? Did you retorque? I had issues with the felpro gasket pushing into the valley. After changing how I did it, no more issues. I torque them to the spec and leave them overnight. Come back and in sequence back them off a 1/4 turn and retorque them. They usually will turn more. Studs are worth it just for not having the small hex of the arp bolts. I now run studs and cometics. LA’s could definitely benefit from a fifth head bolt.
 

golden boy

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the 4 head bolt per cylinder is definitely the weak point in this design. the gasket was a generic "engine quest" brand . i didn't really assess the situation as critical as i was installing new cylinder heads and new head bolts. my normal go to would be to go with a brand name gasket . but as i recall , i got caught up in the ROCK AUTO warehouse shuffle, trying to minimize the number of warehouses to keep freight costs down. the way that i do this is usually add multiple parts to the cart and delete them according to the warehouses the come out of. i suspect this is how i ended up with these gaskets. i like your idea of leaving them overnight and retorquing.
 

jimjimjimmy

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Others may disagree but i had many head gasket failures , in 97 i started to use Felpro 1008's and i never had a failure since and thats with a 530 hp stroker plus a 100 shot and a good few 340's . i was using Detroit head gaskets before that and would last less than one season .
 

dustertogo

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the 4 head bolt per cylinder is definitely the weak point in this design. the gasket was a generic "engine quest" brand . i didn't really assess the situation as critical as i was installing new cylinder heads and new head bolts. my normal go to would be to go with a brand name gasket . but as i recall , i got caught up in the ROCK AUTO warehouse shuffle, trying to minimize the number of warehouses to keep freight costs down. the way that i do this is usually add multiple parts to the cart and delete them according to the warehouses the come out of. i suspect this is how i ended up with these gaskets. i like your idea of leaving them overnight and retorquing.
Yep, those are definitely cheapo gaskets.
 

MOPAROFFICIAL

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Others may disagree but i had many head gasket failures , in 97 i started to use Felpro 1008's and i never had a failure since and thats with a 530 hp stroker plus a 100 shot and a good few 340's . i was using Detroit head gaskets before that and would last less than one season .
Yeah, Detroit's are the softer graphite type.
Makes sense!
 
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