Blueprinting... Educate the uneducated

[DentalDart]

I came across a listing for a 383 engine, not that I need one, I just can't help but look for mopar parts for sale all the time.

Here's the add-
Title- 383 HP Mopar Block (fully blueprinted)
1965 Mopar 383HP Bare Block
Out of my Drag car 40 years ago
Bored .030 with Head Plate
Decked on Centerline
Align bore Checked

.. After that he talks about a couple of other parts he has that can go with the engine if the buyer so pleases.

When I search blueprinting an engine on google it refers to blueprinting as machining an engine to specific specifications which allows it to withstand certain tolerances. When I think of blueprint I think of a build blueprint where you have dimensions set to a smaller scale, but will use those blueprints to build the final larger project.

What all actually goes into blueprinting an engine? What does blueprinting mean when talking about an engine? Thanks!

 

[oldkimmer]

Means u want to be back to factory specs. Even the factory didn’t follow their own specs. Lots were outta wack. Kim

 

[DentalDart]

Means u want to be back to factory specs. Even the factory didn’t follow their own specs. Lots were outta wack. Kim

So just going back to factory specs and then from there you bore it, then "deck and centerline?" (what ever that means)

 

[oldkimmer]

No, u do it all at once. The factory decks were usually too tall to start with. Ur new parts dictate where u go from with them. The super stock guys have to be right on the money with the specs as they get torn down every once in awhile. So specs are very important to them. Hope this make sense. Kim

 

[RustyRatRod]

It means all posted specs for the engine are machined to their exact specs. Deck heights were usually tall and uneven from the factory. Combustion chambers were normally larger than spec. Crankshafts have even been out of index. And on and on and on. lol

BUT some people don't know what all that means and just throw words around to try and sell something. You need proof.

 

[Murray]

Your definition is correct, think about it. Those paper blueprints contain all of the measurements/specifications of the part to be constructed/built. Where the doors and windows will be placed, the distance between them, how big they should be. Blueprinting an engine has reduced that paper to just the specifications. Now you have to understand machining as opposed to construction. How an engine is machined from a raw casting at the factory, all the different machining operations you need to understand what makes up the engine sitting in front of you. Blueprinting an engine then refers to revisiting/double checking all or most of these machining operations to bring the engine back to specifications. To describe each machining operation would take more space than we have here. Now you can research individual operations. Hope this helps.

 

[DentalDart]

It means all posted specs for the engine are machined to their exact specs. Deck heights were usually tall and uneven from the factory. Combustion chambers were normally larger than spec. Crankshafts have even been out of index. And on and on and on. lol

BUT some people don't know what all that means and just throw words around to try and sell something. You need proof.

I'm assuming it's good to start with a "blue printed engine" though when building high performance engines though? Or even building a strong reliable engine?

 

[Phreakish]

So just going back to factory specs and then from there you bore it, then "deck and centerline?" (what ever that means)

In effect, it means to bring it to a 'tighter tolerance' than factory. The factories would use anything that got cars out of the building, regardless of if it was 'to spec'. Even if it was 'to spec', it often meant that you'd have pistons of different diameters, cylinders with different strokes, valves with different lash or preload. But so long as it was within the allowable range (ish) it shipped. Blueprinting tries to make everything precise and the same.

Decking has to do with squaring the cylinder head surfaces to the crank axis. Centerlining is to ensure that the center of the bores intersect the centerline of the crank. This is often called 'align boring' also. Boring is the machining of the cylinder bores, and honing is the finishing step that does the last few .0001" worth of work and gives a smooth surface for the rings to run on and also hold oil. The idea is for the block to have a straight main-bearing bore/axis, with bores spaced properly and whose centers are exactly over (or properly space from) the mains axis, and decks which are parallel to the mains and perpendicular to the bores. This cuts down on cylinder-to-cylinder differences and makes an assembly much closer to 'perfect'.

If the engine/block has had that kind of work done, there should be a sheet from the machine shop which lists the final measurements (before AND after if the shop is actually decent). There are ways to verify these things if you're handy with measuring devices (dial indicators, calipers, at a minimum) but unless they're verified it's all smoke and mirrors. Cheap shops will just indicate off what's there, or off what's convenient and not always achieve 'perfect', let alone 'better'. We're also talking corrections which can be measured in thicknesses of paper or widths of a hair (literally) - so it can be tough to visually see.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I'm assuming it's good to start with a "blue printed engine" though when building high performance engines though? Or even building a strong reliable engine?

I blueprint them regardless of use now. It make for a better ultimate outcome.

 

[DentalDart]

Your definition is correct, think about it. Those paper blueprints contain all of the measurements/specifications of the part to be constructed/built. Where the doors and windows will be placed, the distance between them, how big they should be. Blueprinting an engine has reduced that paper to just the specifications. Now you have to understand machining as opposed to construction. How an engine is machined from a raw casting at the factory, all the different machining operations you need to understand what makes up the engine sitting in front of you. Blueprinting an engine then refers to revisiting/double checking all or most of these machining operations to bring the engine back to specifications. To describe each machining operation would take more space than we have here. Now you can research individual operations. Hope this helps.

I'll just take the words of people from FABO I'm not smart enough to understand it all.

 

[DentalDart]

I blueprint them regardless of use now. It make for a better ultimate outcome.

Dont give me any bad ideas, my wife will kill me if I come home with a bare engine block and these parts (in his add)
Also have 383 steel crank Std.=$125.00
Brand New Forged Domed TRW Pistons in box .060 11:1/ 12.5:1 Depending on Deck and Head CCs w/HD Pins = $275 .

Next year maybe will be the time I get to try my hand at building an engine.

 

[Phreakish]

I'm assuming it's good to start with a "blue printed engine" though when building high performance engines though? Or even building a strong reliable engine?

For a performance engine, it's considered a must. Most builds focus on more power, and the best place to start is often compression. Higher compression leads to tighter clearances (piston and heads coming within .035 of each other in some cases, versus within .125 or more in a factory motor) tighter clearances mean you can't deviate part-to-part as much. A connecting rod being .010 longer than another could be catastrophic. This is just one example. Piston to bore clearances, ring end gaps, valve heights, spring heights, etc... it all matter and has to be exact.

Then there's tolerance 'stack up', which is the combination of tolerances which compound one another. Think of the piston - it's attached to a pin, attached to a rod, attached to the crank, in a bearing, in a block. Even if every tolerance was kept to +-.002 (total width equal to the thickness of paper), that adds up to +-.012, or .024 total tolerance. That's 6 sheets of paper...
Just for reference, when I measured my piston-to-deck height on my last shortblock, the variance was less than .002 - with all of those tolerances 'stacked'. Just imagine having a shortblock where one piston is sticking out .012 and another is sunk .012. Hard to relate if you haven't 'seen' what .012 is, or what a precision build results in, but it would be pretty bad to have such a result.

 

[DentalDart]

In effect, it means to bring it to a 'tighter tolerance' than factory. The factories would use anything that got cars out of the building, regardless of if it was 'to spec'. Even if it was 'to spec', it often meant that you'd have pistons of different diameters, cylinders with different strokes, valves with different lash or preload. But so long as it was within the allowable range (ish) it shipped. Blueprinting tries to make everything precise and the same.

Decking has to do with squaring the cylinder head surfaces to the crank axis. Centerlining is to ensure that the center of the bores intersect the centerline of the crank. This is often called 'align boring' also. Boring is the machining of the cylinder bores, and honing is the finishing step that does the last few .0001" worth of work and gives a smooth surface for the rings to run on and also hold oil. The idea is for the block to have a straight main-bearing bore/axis, with bores spaced properly and whose centers are exactly over (or properly space from) the mains axis, and decks which are parallel to the mains and perpendicular to the bores. This cuts down on cylinder-to-cylinder differences and makes an assembly much closer to 'perfect'.

If the engine/block has had that kind of work done, there should be a sheet from the machine shop which lists the final measurements (before AND after if the shop is actually decent). There are ways to verify these things if you're handy with measuring devices (dial indicators, calipers, at a minimum) but unless they're verified it's all smoke and mirrors. Cheap shops will just indicate off what's there, or off what's convenient and not always achieve 'perfect', let alone 'better'. We're also talking corrections which can be measured in thicknesses of paper or widths of a hair (literally) - so it can be tough to visually see.

If it's something that was done "40" years ago,did they still print out all the specs to show proof of what they did?

 

[krazykuda]

If it's something that was done "40" years ago,did they still print out all the specs to show proof of what they did?

No, they usually don't hand out the factory blue prints to just anybody... It's the company's proprietory information...

You usually have to have an inside connection to get a hold of them....

A blueprint for a block is usually about 10 foot long when unrolled to show all of the views, cut away views, and sectional views....

 

[Phreakish]

Dont give me any bad ideas, my wife will kill me if I come home with a bare engine block and these parts (in his add)
Also have 383 steel crank Std.=$125.00
Brand New Forged Domed TRW Pistons in box .060 11:1/ 12.5:1 Depending on Deck and Head CCs w/HD Pins = $275 .

Next year maybe will be the time I get to try my hand at building an engine.

Building an engine is fun. But start with a lawnmower if you want to do 'all' of the build ;)

For your first car engine, find a reputable machine shop and have them at least put the short-block together. If they're a good shop, they may let you participate in the critical stuff like measuring bearing clearances and such. Buy good heads - having heads redone is a wallet killer and even good shops get it wrong and then you've got nothing to show for it. Broken aluminum heads at least have some residual value - usually. Find a shop that you can give a goal to and who will help guide your build. A novice trying to pick parts and be successful all while the wife is watching costs is a recipe for unpleasantness.

If it's something that was done "40" years ago,did they still print out all the specs to show proof of what they did?

If they were good, yes. It would be hand-printed on a sheet instead of machine printed, but they'd still do it. If there's no proof, then it's as good as any other block out of the boneyard. Also, if the block has been sitting since it was bored - the bores may be corroded and need to be rehoned or even re-bored and re-honed and if you're already at the machine shop you might as well spend the rest of the dollars because in my experience it'll come back to bite you if you don't.

Personally, I'd rather buy a whole junkyard or RV motor than someone's half-finished block sitting on a stand. Usually there's a reason it's still on the stand, and more forgotten history and corrosion than it's worth.

 

[oldkimmer]

I think it would me a small miracle if he kept the paperwork all these years. Kim

 

[DentalDart]

For a performance engine, it's considered a must. Most builds focus on more power, and the best place to start is often compression. Higher compression leads to tighter clearances (piston and heads coming within .035 of each other in some cases, versus within .125 or more in a factory motor) tighter clearances mean you can't deviate part-to-part as much. A connecting rod being .010 longer than another could be catastrophic. This is just one example. Piston to bore clearances, ring end gaps, valve heights, spring heights, etc... it all matter and has to be exact.

Then there's tolerance 'stack up', which is the combination of tolerances which compound one another. Think of the piston - it's attached to a pin, attached to a rod, attached to the crank, in a bearing, in a block. Even if every tolerance was kept to +-.002 (total width equal to the thickness of paper), that adds up to +-.012, or .024 total tolerance. That's 6 sheets of paper...
Just for reference, when I measured my piston-to-deck height on my last shortblock, the variance was less than .002 - with all of those tolerances 'stacked'. Just imagine having a shortblock where one piston is sticking out .012 and another is sunk .012. Hard to relate if you haven't 'seen' what .012 is, or what a precision build results in, but it would be pretty bad to have such a result.

I can relate. I work on teeth and we deal with mm and .5mm increments. Needle in the wrong space or to close to a nerve and you cause parylasys.

This is all really cool stuff though. Glad there are so many guys on here knowledgeable enough to explain it in terms I can understand as well. Giving me an itch for messing with an engine... must be scratched... 383 came in the gts is it as expensive to build as the 340? Or is there a preference in engine to build? I see a lot of people doing 360 builds, is there a reason for that?

 

[Phreakish]

No, they usually don't hand out the factory blue prints to just anybody... It's the company's proprietory information...

You usually have to have an inside connection to get a hold of them....

A blueprint for a block is usually about 10 foot long when unrolled....

I think he meant if the block had bee worked on by a shop '40' years ago.

 

[Murray]

Also remember that "blueprinted" has no direct definition when used to describe an engine, it is misused and abused, and sometimes dishonestly. You should rely on only those with a good reputation. Buyer beware!

 

[Phreakish]

I can relate. I work on teeth and we deal with mm and .5mm increments. Needle in the wrong space or to close to a nerve and you cause parylasys.

This is all really cool stuff though. Glad there are so many guys on here knowledgeable enough to explain it in terms I can understand as well. Giving me an itch for messing with an engine... must be scratched... 383 came in the gts is it as expensive to build as the 340? Or is there a preference in engine to build? I see a lot of people doing 360 builds, is there a reason for that?

Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

I design machined components, so I'm familiar. I also help on the customer service end, so I have to be able to explain why things don't work the way some customers think they do, which sometimes helps me also explain stuff to folk not steeped in cutting fluid and cnc coolant.

360's fit into A bodies easier than a big block (383 is a big block). Big block vs small block is a matter of preference, goals, and what you already have. It's possible to buy a 'crate' (already built and done blueprinted engine) small block, but big-blocks need to be built these days. If I were to try and spend money on a big block, I'd want a 400 or a 440. I'd use a 383 if it was assembled and running, or I already had the entire engine and it only need honed and assembled.

There are multiple challenges with a big block in an A body. Spark plug access, header fitment, and engine clearance to the k member in some cases (I think). There's plenty of threads that detail the big-block swap process, but just know everything that attaches to a BB is different than a SB. Transmissions, exhaust, intakes, etc. Cost to build one is about the same if you already own the parts. Getting your hands on a big block is usually the challenge.

 

[DentalDart]

Also remember that "blueprinted" has no direct definition when used to describe an engine, it is misused and abused, and sometimes dishonestly. You should rely on only those with a good reputation. Buyer beware!

This is what always worries me with buying anything used. Which is why I always consult the greats on FABO often.

Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

I design machined components, so I'm familiar. I also help on the customer service end, so I have to be able to explain why things don't work the way some customers think they do, which sometimes helps me also explain stuff to folk not steeped in cutting fluid and cnc coolant.

360's fit into A bodies easier than a big block (383 is a big block). Big block vs small block is a matter of preference, goals, and what you already have. It's possible to buy a 'crate' (already built and done blueprinted engine) small block, but big-blocks need to be built these days. If I were to try and spend money on a big block, I'd want a 400 or a 440. I'd use a 383 if it was assembled and running, or I already had the entire engine and it only need honed and assembled.

There are multiple challenges with a big block in an A body. Spark plug access, header fitment, and engine clearance to the k member in some cases (I think). There's plenty of threads that detail the big-block swap process, but just know everything that attaches to a BB is different than a SB. Transmissions, exhaust, intakes, etc. Cost to build one is about the same if you already own the parts. Getting your hands on a big block is usually the challenge.

Didnt realize big blocks were hard to come by. Oh yes speed costs money, honestly the whole mopar game costs money haha. I want to go the speed limit and stop at the red lights and romp on it from time to time. Really I started the thread just learn more than anything then I continue with more questions as replies come in as I enjoy learning about it.

440 huh, those came in the 69yr dart, I think. I'll probably read more in the next coming days on the swap and what it entails. It would be fun to build an engine outside the car while I can still drive the car, which is the ultimate goal.

 

[Murray]

I drive a '68 cuda 383, 4sp. Yes it is fun. If your A body didn't originally have a big block, it gets a little more expensive to do a 383. P/S might be an issue as original cars had special blocks, moving the left motor mount forward to accommodate p/s. These will need a larger radiator. Original cars had special exhaust manifolds, now extremely rare and headers have their own issues especially if you run 4sp. Don't want to discourage you, but you can still have a lot of fun with a small block automatic. For a first timer, this can be a little easier and cheaper. When you win the lottery, you can have your big block.

 

[DentalDart]

I drive a '68 cuda 383, 4sp. Yes it is fun. If your A body didn't originally have a big block, it gets a little more expensive to do a 383. P/S might be an issue as original cars had special blocks, moving the left motor mount forward to accommodate p/s. These will need a larger radiator. Original cars had special exhaust manifolds, now extremely rare and headers have their own issues especially if you run 4sp. Don't want to discourage you, but you can still have a lot of fun with a small block automatic. For a first timer, this can be a little easier and cheaper. When you win the lottery, you can have your big block.

Oh we have fun with the sb that's for sure! Not much really discourages me, if it did I wouldn't have gotten a mopar and started this mess haha.
I would also keep the automatic as I have no need or want for a 4spd in the toy cars. I have had enough manuals, heck even my daily is manual, I enjoy not shifting sometimes. Let's me use my hands for other activities while driving the car Haha.

 

[Dana67Dart]

Doc, piece of advice... Finish one project at a time. Enjoy car for a time THEN dive into the next one.

Your easiest engine swap would be 340 or 360. 383 and 440 have other issues in a swap that complicate things.

Not to mention... YOUR IN CALIFONIA
Smog requirements go with the engine. IE put a 74 engine in a 67 and you have to meet 74 smog on the engine.

Maybe CA changed how it does smog on older cars but that's how it was when I lived there.

 

[DentalDart]

Doc, piece of advice... Finish one project at a time. Enjoy car for a time THEN dive into the next one.

Your easiest engine swap would be 340 or 360. 383 and 440 have other issues in a swap that complicate things.

Not to mention... YOUR IN CALIFONIA
Smog requirements go with the engine. IE put a 74 engine in a 67 and you have to meet 74 smog on the engine.

Maybe CA changed how it does smog on older cars but that's how it was when I lived there.

I'm just waiting on parts now... well 1 part.

I'm not going to do anything right now, but I didn't know what he meant by blue print so I wanted to ask. I'm also a huge planner, I like to have everything mapped, it doesn't always go as planned but I try to let it go as planned. I already have a new cam and lifters for the 340 that's maybe next year project.

Also not I dont live in comifornia, they would probably kick me out faster than I could move in.