Brakes going soft after raising car?

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DentalDart

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So I've been messing with my front alignment and with my transmission front band adjustment which has required me to raise the car multiple times. This has led to my brakes getting soft, brakes dragging and feels like air in the lines. Everything in the brake system is brand new... except for the proportioning valve, I traded my dist block for the prop valve. I built all new brake lines and the car was stopping on a dime afterwards, but now it is having the above problem.

I havent had time to check everything out under the car as I noticed it last Sunday and have been busy with school, but any advice on what I should look at first before rebleeding them? Has anyone ever heard of or had this kind of problem before?

Pic for attention...

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Great pics....I don’t see any correlation to raising and lowering having an impact on braking but smarter folks might ....good luck troubleshooting.
 
Great pics....I don’t see any correlation to raising and lowering having an impact on braking but smarter folks might ....good luck troubleshooting.

Thanks, figured everyone has seen the car a million times and its important to stop properly for these 3.

It definitely is weird that it started happening when jacking up and lowering the car multiple times. I havent had any problems since replacing the metal lines.... well any problems with the brakes.... the car is full of problems... :rolleyes:
 
Doc, you got power brakes? Maybe you have a vac leak to the can.

Just reaching for floss! (just some dental humor)
 
Doc, you got power brakes? Maybe you have a vac leak to the can.

Just reaching for floss! (just some dental humor)

Nope, no power brakes, I'm to poor to be able to afford power brakes. Lol

I like the joke as well.
 
no idea why jacking it up jacks it up, but i am wondering if you've tried re-bleeding the brakes, and if it then happens again, and if you checked the fluid level in the MC
 
Long shot... did you by chance catch a metal brake like with jack or stands and crimp it over? It seems odd to me pedal going soft with raising car but not after driving up hills or over stuff. Air in the lines is all I can figure or out of adjustment.
 
Long shot... did you by chance catch a metal brake like with jack or stands and crimp it over? It seems odd to me pedal going soft with raising car but not after driving up hills or over stuff. Air in the lines is all I can figure or out of adjustment.

Yea I dont know how they'd get out of adjustment either. Its weird. This car is weird and I'm not "the best" mechanic. I try really hard though.

Only place I raised the car from was the frame and the k-frame. Then I only set the jack stands on the frame... ill check it all out though.
 
Did you kink or pinch a hose off in the process of raising it? Check and make sure they are in good shape and not kinked, they may need replacing
 
Did you kink or pinch a hose off in the process of raising it? Check and make sure they are in good shape and not kinked, they may need replacing

I dont think i kinked them, they are brand new.

Not something I've ever encountered over my decades of wrenching on junkers.

Yea it may be something else, or they need bled again, but it is the weirdest thing because it didn't start happening until I started raising and lowering the car...
 
What angle is the master cylinder when the car is sitting on the ground? Can you post a picture?
 
Any chance the park brake cable had anything to do with this? As in you set it and it didnt release? Definetly would cause it.
 
Any chance the park brake cable had anything to do with this? As in you set it and it didnt release? Definetly would cause it.

Could not setting it cause the problem? I tried tightening it a couple times and felt like I could never get it right so then I said F*** it...
 
What angle is the master cylinder when the car is sitting on the ground? Can you post a picture?

I think its pretty level...

There's 1 spot i was thinking about where the line could have gotten pinched, I'll check it when I get home today. Its in the rear drivers side wheel well, where it travels from the frame to the rear hose.

20200524_165053.jpg
 
Could not setting it cause the problem? I tried tightening it a couple times and felt like I could never get it right so then I said F*** it...
If park brake cable isnt fully releasing, it will cause dragging and a spongy pedal. I just tug on cables were they are exposed and see if they move freely.
 
If park brake cable isnt fully releasing, it will cause dragging and a spongy pedal. I just tug on cables were they are exposed and see if they move freely.

Just tug on them underneath where they are by the frame rails? I can do that, its so easy even a dentist could do it without messing up.... famous last words...
 
When you had it in the air for suspension work, was it just up in the front? If not was it level all around?
 
So I'm guessing you have discs on the front now?

In any case, the pedal needs to get hard, after the first inch or so, and not change much with multiple/rapid pedal strokes.

If the pedal gets hard without requiring at least about an inch if "freeplay",you have a C-port (compensating port) timing issue.
If the pedal travel is excessive, then you could have a different C-port issue or the rear shoes need adjusting.
If the pedal is not hard, but spongy, then you most likely have air in the system, or the front pads are not flat and parallel to the rotors
If the pedal does not get hard with multiple pumps, then the master may be defective.
If the pedal feels right but not quite right, then your front PADS may not be parallel to the rotors, or the rubber lines are ballooning.
There are different tests for each of these.
If the front brakes are dragging, then that again points to a compensating-port issue, or failing front hoses.
If the rear shoes are dragging, this points to an adjustment issue, a hose issue, or again, a C-port issue.

In all cases, there are only three sources of these issues, namely; hydraulic, mechanical, or adjustment.
In my plan of attack;
the first thing to go after, is to prove the master.
Then the rear shoe adjustment then, then the mechanical, and finally,the hydraulics.
If you do the hydraulics first, you may get a false positive and bleed for hours.

1) To test the master, simply put both feet on the pedal and push for 20 seconds. If the pedal does not sink, then there is a very high degree of probability that it is good. But if it sinks, with no external loss of fluid, then it is bad.
2) The rear shoes are supposed to be self adjusting.... as long as the correct adjuster is on the correct side! If you spend a lot of time backing up and slamming the brake pedal, they can become overly tight. In any case, you have to get the rear brakes working and adjusted right, to diagnose the rest of the system.
3) Next you can check that the calipers are functioning correctly, in that they apply and release immediately, with the pedal application, that they slide freely on their ways or pins, and that the pads are applying over their entire faces, and are not sprung on bent steel backers or wadded up noise insulators, or mountains of silicon.
4) after this, if everything checks out, it is time for a hydraulic test,
First a brief description of how it should work.
Inside the master are two fluid retaining pots, and two hydraulic chambers created by the piston assembly. The rearmost pot should be plumbed (in most cases) to the FRONT brakes, and the frontmost pot to the rear brakes.
When you press on the pedal, the two piston chambers are coupled together hydraulically and they move together as one.
At pedal application, the piston-stack slides forward. In the first 1/8" or so of piston travel, some of the fluid is forced back into the reservoirs. More on this later. The piston-pair continue until resistance in the rear brake circuit (at the front of the M/C) causes it to slow down. Then the rear piston starts sending fluid to the front calipers. After the line is thus charged, braking can begin.
After the stop is accomplished, the pedal retracts the piston assembly, and the caliper seals pull the pistons back a hair off the rotors, and the shoe return springs park the rear shoes. While all that is going on, the fluid returns to the M/C . As the pads and shoes wear,over time, if the C-ports were not there, the pedal would continually get lower, until no more stopping would occur. So the factory drilled those little holes in the bottom of the reservoirs to compensate for the sinking pedal, by always insuring that an adequate amount of fluid is in the system. If it should happen that the C-ports don't open, then the pedal will fall continuously over time. This can only happen if the rod that pushes on the piston-stack is too long, or the pedal does not return to it's proper parked position.
Ok, that's how it is supposed to work.

Now, knowing that; we can use the C-ports to diagnose the system. We know that the fluid has to return. And the quickest way to prove it is to look inside the M/C to see if it is. The proof, in a properly working system, will be a little roiling of the fluid. But if you get a little fountain, something is wrong. And if you get a geyser, something is Very wrong. So when you do this test, be forewarned, I have seen geysers spray fluid high enough to hit the underside of the hood, when multiple stroking was involved. If the previous tests were ok then you should not get a geyser. But if you have a lot of air in the system, multiple pumps will compress it; and when you release the pedal, all that compressed air can violently unload the fluid back to the master.
Special note
brake hoses usually rot from the inside out, and when they do, it seems they can make checkvalves inside the tiny tubes. So if your calipers are dragging,and you know it's not a sticking piston,then the way to prove that a hose is bad is to crack the bleeder. If fluid gushes out;the hose is likely bad. Yeah, the problem could be up the line, but not likely.
That's all I got
 
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So I'm guessing you have discs on the front now?

In any case, the pedal needs to get hard, after the first inch or so, and not change much with multiple/rapid pedal strokes.

If the pedal gets hard without requiring at least about an inch if "freeplay",you have a C-port (compensating port) timing issue.
If the pedal travel is excessive, then you could have a different C-port issue or the rear shoes need adjusting.
If the pedal is not hard, but spongy, then you most likely have air in the system, or the front pads are not flat and parallel to the rotors
If the pedal does not get hard with multiple pumps, then the master may be defective.
If the pedal feels right but not quite right, then your front PADS may not be parallel to the rotors, or the rubber lines are ballooning.
There are different tests for each of these.
If the front brakes are dragging, then that again points to a compensating-port issue, or failing front hoses.
If the rear shoes are dragging, this points to an adjustment issue, a hose issue, or again, a C-port issue.

In all cases, there are only three sources of these issues, namely; hydraulic, mechanical, or adjustment.
In my plan of attack;
the first thing to go after, is to prove the master.
Then the rear shoe adjustment then, then the mechanical, and finally,the hydraulics.
If you do the hydraulics first, you may get a false positive and bleed for hours.

1) To test the master, simply put both feet on the pedal and push for 20 seconds. If the pedal does not sink, then there is a very high degree of probability that it is good. But if it sinks, with no external loss of fluid, then it is bad.
2) The rear shoes are supposed to be self adjusting.... as long as the correct adjuster is on the correct side! If you spend a lot of time backing up and slamming the brake pedal, they can become overly tight. In any case, you have to get the rear brakes working and adjusted right, to diagnose the rest of the system.
3) Next you can check that the calipers are functioning correctly, in that they apply and release immediately, with the pedal application, that they slide freely on their ways or pins, and that the pads are applying over their entire faces, and are not sprung on bent steel backers or wadded up noise insulators, or mountains of silicon.
4) after this, if everything checks out, it is time for a hydraulic test,
First a brief description of how it should work.
Inside the master are two fluid retaining pots, and two hydraulic chambers created by the piston assembly. The rearmost pot should be plumbed (in most cases) to the FRONT brakes, and the frontmost pot to the rear brakes.
When you press on the pedal, the two piston chambers are coupled together hydraulically and they move together as one.
At pedal application, the piston-stack slides forward. In the first 1/8" or so of piston travel, some of the fluid is forced back into the reservoirs. More on this later. The piston-pair continue until resistance in the rear brake circuit (at the front of the M/C) causes it to slow down. Then the rear piston starts sending fluid to the front calipers. After the line is thus charged, braking can begin.
After the stop is accomplished, the pedal retracts the piston assembly, and the caliper seals pull the pistons back a hair off the rotors, and the shoe return springs park the rear shoes. While all that is going on, the fluid returns to the M/C . As the pads and shoes wear,over time, if the C-ports were not there, the pedal would continually get lower, until no more stopping would occur. So the factory drilled those little holes in the bottom of the reservoirs to compensate for the sinking pedal, by always insuring that an adequate amount of fluid is in the system. If it should happen that the C-ports don't open, then the pedal will fall continuously over time. This can only happen if the rod that pushes on the piston-stack is too long, or the pedal does not return to it's proper parked position.
Ok, that's how it is supposed to work.

Now, knowing that; we can use the C-ports to diagnose the system. We know that the fluid has to return. And the quickest way to prove it is to look inside the M/C to see if it is. The proof, in a properly working system, will be a little roiling of the fluid. But if you get a little fountain, something is wrong. And if you get a geyser, something is Very wrong. So when you do this test, be forewarned, I have seen geysers spray fluid high enough to hit the underside of the hood, when multiple stroking was involved. If the previous tests were ok then you should not get a geyser. But if you have a lot of air in the system, multiple pumps will compress it; and when you release the pedal, all that compressed air can violently unload the fluid back to the master.
Special note
brake hoses usually rot from the inside out, and when they do, it seems they can make checkvalves inside the tiny tubes. So if your calipers are dragging,and you know it's not a sticking piston,then the way to prove that a hose is bad is to crack the bleeder. If fluid gushes out;the hose is likely bad. Yeah, the problem could be up the line, but not likely.
That's all I got

Correct, front discs. Hoses are new all around the car.
Pedal gets hard, but not after an inch of travel... if I pump it 1 time its hard after an inch of travel, before 1 pump it has excessive pedal travel.

I hate adjusting the rear shoes....I am not good at knowing when it is "correctly adjusted..." I feel as if one of the adjusters never stays tight, so it may be out of adjustment. I will make sure I re-adjusted them tomorrow, I may have another adjuster as well, I'll check for it...

Whats a C-port? Lol...

Pedal does not move when pushing on it hard for 20 seconds...

Adjuster correct side? Fml I'm always confused.
 
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