Budget 318 build

Discussion in 'Small Block Mopar Engine' started by dartfreak75, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. dartfreak75

    dartfreak75 Well-Known Member

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    Hello guys I have a few questions and am open to suggestions on an engine im building for my dart. First off its a bone stock bottom end stock heads with a summit k6900 cam and lifters stock iron 340 intake a holley 600cfm 4160 carb and full length headers. The tranny is a stock 904 with a 71/4 rear with 276 gears. I know the rear has got to go!! But the funds arent there yet ! Ok so my questions im gonna go with a double roller timing chain should i get the one that can advance or retard the cam on the gear is this gonna be necessary with this setup? Should i just centerline the cam?What advice would you guys give? Ok next question i have a extra set of 360 heads will the stock 360 valve springs be any better than the stock 318 springs? That is all for know i will post more as they come to me lol
     
  2. MOPAROFFICIAL

    MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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    When it comes to budget building... sometimes the best approach is to just buy a 160 dollar set of pistons and rings, have the block done, polish the crank and put some cheapo bearings in. Ring seal is where the power and longevity lies.

    Buy all that stuff like an intake and carburetor... and headers ...and cam and lifters, and you realize you could build a bottom end already...

    Best budget motor I ever ran was a 318 I found in a junkyard that someone had done the bottom end, some cheap-o pistons and ground the crank. I pulled it out tore the 360 heads off of it and brought it home, it was never even run...
    I slapped a used set of 318 heads on it that had closed Chambers, stock 340 cam, and an eddy performer I also found in the junk yard for 25 bucks and ran it.... it ran hard to 5800 rpm.
    I tried that same shit with a used 318 one time that had about 115 to 120 PSI....it was "soft as shit after taking a laxative" and burnt oil.

    I'd almost rather have a fresh stock 318 than a used one with bolt on' s and a cam. Jmo
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
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    • dartfreak75

      dartfreak75 Well-Known Member

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      Thank you for your input! I forgot to mention that the 318 being built is a 86 out of a pickup (non roller) do you think a ring set with the stock piston would help any? What psi should i be look for what is to low? Ideal etc? Most 318 i have messed with have around 115 120 lol but they all where soft also lol
       
    • rumblefish360

      rumblefish360 so close yet so far away

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      Yes, make the purchase. It may not be required. So why purchase it? Because you'll be happy that you have it if you need it rather than need it and not have it.
      That would be just fine. Degree it or centerline it. Ether or, it is not a big deal on small cams. Degreeing it on big camas is super important. Also check valve to piston clearances with some clay.
      There is a book called "How to rebuild my small block MoPar" that is a excellent step by step process with pictures book to own.
      When your ready to step up the program, there is a "How to Hot Rod....." book which is good.
      No, the stock springs should be turned into fishing weights, Christmas tree decorations, pen holders, biz card holders, projectiles for the brats next door or something completely else useless. Get the right springs for the cam.
      Though I'd use the 360 heads on the 318 for sure!
      The draw back is the extra head cc amount in the chamber. This lowers compression on a all ready low set up. While the flow will make more power than the compression, it would be awesome to have both. I don't so quickly recommend installing 360 valves into a 318 head due to cost and performance returns. But that and a full porting on a 318 head are an excellent combo. That is the old school way of doing things. But is very expensive with a low return vs purchasing a set of Edelbrock heads and ending up way a head of the game even with the extra expense of double checking the new heads at a machinists shop.
       
    • dartfreak75

      dartfreak75 Well-Known Member

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      Also what piston would you recommend if i went that route? Would a flat top interfer with the 302 heads
       
    • rumblefish360

      rumblefish360 so close yet so far away

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      If you rebuild the engine with a higfher compression ratio, move right to the KB hyper U or Forged set. A fresh engine seals better than a good used one.... or should!
      This is power!
       
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      • dartfreak75

        dartfreak75 Well-Known Member

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        Thanks i actually have the how to hotrod a small block book it has helped alot. Yes the 360 heads will be used eventually i dont have the money right now to do them right having them milled and machined i know them big ole combuston chambers will kill my compression without milling them so im gonna stick with my stock heads for now i thought about trying to smooth them out a little i have a dremel lol
         
      • dartfreak75

        dartfreak75 Well-Known Member

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        Could i hone the cylinder bores and rering using stock pistons to get a better seal or is that pointless without overboring?
         
      • dartfreak75

        dartfreak75 Well-Known Member

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        Back to the timing chain question does the double roller chain fit the same as the stock one it appears to be alot thicker to me does this affect anything during reassembly as far as the timing cover clearance and so on?
         
      • rumblefish360

        rumblefish360 so close yet so far away

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        If you can do this by yourself, then yes it would be good. If you haven’t done this, before d leave the honing to a pro or gamble on it.
        Now why would you think that?
        Sorry, this question annoys me.
        If you have the “How to Hotrod” book, perhaps you should read it again. Your answer will be in the book.
         
      • dartfreak75

        dartfreak75 Well-Known Member

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        I didn't think it would i was just asking better safe than sorry i didnt want to spend the money on it and it not fit. The book shows how to install and centerline the cam doesnt go into great detail about the double roller vs stock sorry my question annoys you there is no need in being a smart ass I thought the whole purpose of this forum was to learn from other ppl im sure at some point in your life there was a question you didnt know the answer to and you had to ask someone. Im not new at the mechanics game i have rebuilt several engine all where stock rebuilds no performace or aftermarket parts just stock replacement im just making sure the performance parts will work without further modifications thanks for your time
         
      • rumblefish360

        rumblefish360 so close yet so far away

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        Hey! Stupid dirty Ass wipe! I’m not being sarcastic but I can change in a flip of a switch if ya want me to! Frakin hillbilly dumbfrak!

        (The attitude over. Did ya like it? I got more!
        Now for some civilized talk.... )

        While the purpose of the forum, among other things is to learn, square one teaching is not one of them even more so when you didn’t/don’t read the book you bought.

        If the chain was too thick to use behind a stock cover, IMO, the book would have mentioned it. Also, by far and large the general population here makes mentions and states concerns when members use such parts or go to that level where a modification is needed. Most assume you would know that a mod is needed if need be. If and when it pops up, members (myself included) make mentions, address concerns and/or talk about there experience and pains with that product or ordeal in doing what you maybe attempting.

        There is a long history here in engine modifications and from general to wild race builds. Many with great detail.

        Enjoy the reading and the forum.
        Now go! Seize the day!
        :thumbsup:
         
      • rumblefish360

        rumblefish360 so close yet so far away

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        Oh! I missed a question so...

        On flat top pistons, even the HP & race units are normally pretty far below the deck. Magnum blocks can be the exception due to a slightly shorter deck height. The manufacturers (should) list the piston height from the pin centerline.

        High performance and racing pistons are normally taller but not tall enough to protrude above the blocks deck. This of course assumes a stock deck height.

        The pistons are designed to be that way so the end user (you) & the machinist can furtherly machine the block (or not) to place the piston where it is needed to obtain the correct distance in the cylinder for the compression ratio you want/need. In conjunction with head gasket and cylinder head cc’s.

        Performance and race pistons have valve reliefs (often for larger valves, this must be checked before ordering) that will help large cams.

        Go to Summit racing’s web site and start clicking away on the left hand side bar until you find a suitable piston and read up on the specs.

        Read through & make post on your selection and ask a few questions about what other people have done with there set up, with cam lift, general performance etc....
         
      • sireland67

        sireland67 Well-Known Member

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        In the near future, I am putting together a cheap 318 like you are building.
        After full disassembly of the engine, I plan on at least hot tanking the block, putting new cam bearings and soft plugs in, honing the cylinders, and polish/turn the crank.
        New rings, file-fit on original pistons, fresh bearings, new stock oil pump, and double roller timing chain.
        I have already bought the same cam you mentioned, and bought comp 901 springs for the heads.
        I planned on just re-using the stock 318 heads, but a buddy of mine offered me set of fresh "J" heads for $100 so they most likely will end up on the engine.
        I plan to totally abuse the engine with boost.
         
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        • nm9stheham

          nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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          OP, since this is from a pickup, put a piston at the top of it's stroke and very carefully measure down from the block deck to the piston top. What you want to avoid is the low compression truck pistons; the typical compression is low for a 318 but the truck pistons are reeeeally low. With your cam selection (which IMHO is too large for street cruising with stock 318 parts) and rear gear, this thing is going to be struggling to get moving. Loosing any compression is just going to make that worse.

          As for the hone and new rings, well you ARE on a budget. What you need to look out for is the wear in the bores (overall wear, taper and out-of-roundness), and the wear on the ring lands on the pistons. If the bore is worn too much or the ring lands are worn, new rings are never going to seal well. Let us know if you need any info on measuring those parameters.

          Yes, for sure buy the adjustable timing sprockets. I would be looking to advance the cam in a low compression engine.

          BTW, a lot of answers will vary on how you plan to use this engine/car. Can you tell us if this is for cruising, drag racing, road racing/autocross, hauling potatoes, or...??
           
        • dartfreak75

          dartfreak75 Well-Known Member

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          Thanks for your imput my plans for this car is just a driver no racing or high performance situations i just want a little extra umf out of the 318 for cruising this engine is a temporary fix i have a 360 that is gonna be professionally built when the funds are available i jjust want a cheap fix for now to get my old dart back on the road
           
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          • dartfreak75

            dartfreak75 Well-Known Member

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            To my understanding the 85-89 318 had a higher compression 9to1 due to the closed chamber heads (302) 9 to 1 is higher than any 360 and higher than the later 340 so how would a 340 cam (basicly what the sum6900 is) kill my power?
             
          • rumblefish360

            rumblefish360 so close yet so far away

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            The larger cams timing events lower the dynamic compression ratio. (Dynamic compression ratio is when the engine is spinning and the valves are moving. @AJforums could explain this best I think.)
            The valves are opening longer for more air and fuel but also allowing some pressure to escape. This is why cam manufacturers recomend higher static compression ratios with bigger cams. 10-1, 11-1, 12.-1 etc...

            With a bigger cam, the dynamic or cranking pressure drops and this drops Efficiency. This makes the bottom end of the rpm scale feel soggy or soft due to the lack of power being developed.

            Measuring exactly where the piston is in the cylinder combined with the head gasket dimensions and cylinder head cc amounts will yield the exact static compression ratio (10-1, 11-1 etc...) to help guide you.

            A few cam dealers will state what they would like to see in cylinder psi which would be dynamic ratio. Static ratio doesn’t change. Dynamic will with a cam change.

            Fellas, IMO, the cam choice doesn’t warrant any worry what so ever. Here is the link to the cam. If I’m correct.
            Summit Racing® Classic Cam and Lifter Kits SUM-K6900
             
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            • AJ/FormS

              AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

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              IMO
              The absolute most bang for your buck is gears
              and the second best for a budget, is a 2800TC.
              So,do yourself a favor and just get rid of the 2.76s..... NOW
              But if you really want to spend money on the teener, IMO,the absolute first place to attack is that lousy cylinder pressure, ESPECIALLY if you have 2.76 gears because, they keep the teener in the bottom of the rev range for most of it's life. The absolute wrong things to do are to bolt on even lower compression heads and longer-period cams.
              2.76 gears will keep your first-gear rpms to about 3000@34mph,4000@45mph,5000@56mph. So your engine is gonna have to make power at those rpms,specifically from stall to 3000 where 90% or more of the engine's life is gonna be spent at. A bigger cam with a later ICA is absolutely wrong. Lower cylinder pressure is absolutely wrong. What good is more port-flo at 5000rpm if your engine rarely gets there, or you have to wait and wait and wait for it to arrive, and then it's time to shift or time to shut down?

              Personally,
              if I was stuck with 2.76s,and a 318
              I would rather have a hi-compression short-block with everything else stone stock, than a stock 8/1 short block with any other factory type top-end and a bigger cam.

              If you lower the cylinder pressure,from an already pretty low number, you absolutely will have the additional cost of a higher-stall TC; You cannot escape that. And bigger gears will be right behind.Soooooooooo, you might as well start with those. And maybe that will satisfy you until the 360HO arrives.
              If you just have to have a bigger cam, install a solid lifter cam kit, with the same, or very similar, installed after-lashing, ICA. Stay away from those long long acceleration ramps, they will just kill your low-rpm torque.

              And don't underestimate the weight loss angle.150 pounds at a stock 318 power level, is like one cam size, but even more than that; it's more like a cubic inch increase, because the performance increase is throughout the rpm range, not just at some peak rpm

              One of my favorite all-time combos was a bone stock low-C 318long-block,with 4.30s, a 2800TC, and with just a 4bbl and headers.
               
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              • dartfreak75

                dartfreak75 Well-Known Member

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                Yes that is the cam thanks i thought it was relatively calm lol it says stock replacment very mild cam
                 
              • dartfreak75

                dartfreak75 Well-Known Member

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                Yea i completely agree with the gear! Im not sinking money in the 318 other than gaskets im just putting it together with parts i have laying around . I absolutel am not put compression killing 360 heads on it maybe one day if i can get the whole thing worked i would but like i said i have a whole 360 i want to get built oneday when more money is available my rear end plans are to get a 8.8 with 410 out of an explorer and shorten the one side and use two right axels. The my 318 is an 86 with 302 heads so the compression shouldn't be extremely low not like the late 70s ones. Hopefully the rear end will come sooner than later here is my checklist. I want to get all the mechinical stuff fixed any thing thats broken right now im replacing steer gear ball joints upper control arm bushings lower ca bushings and all tie rod ends. Then get the motor in and running. After all the inspectable things are fixed paint and body. Then performace stuff ie rear end tc etc
                 
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                • toolmanmike

                  toolmanmike FABO Staff Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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                  Let's not forget why we are here:

                  This ^^^^^^^^^^^^


                   
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                  • dartfreak75

                    dartfreak75 Well-Known Member

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                    Thanks yes I just want to drive it again i was my first car i got it when i was 15 i fixed it and drove it for about 3 years when the slant 6 locked up due to user error i then rebuilt a 318 for it out of 67 satellite it was short lived I bought a 72 barracuda and put that motor in the barracuda and bought the 360 for the dart i was gonna restore my dart while i drove the barracuda then restore the barracuda when the dart was finished well my oldest son was born that year that was 13 years ago the barracuda got sold and the dart still sits completel striped down of all it's parts and former glory lol me and my boy decided now is the time so we have spent our free time along with my wife and other 2 kids puting it back together. Yesteday I got the engine tore down and ready to clean up paint and regasket i am looking into new rings im gonna check my cylinder pressure and if they are good and close to the same in all 8 i will probably leave it be. Next week im gonna tackle the front end that will be a job.
                     
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                    • toolmanmike

                      toolmanmike FABO Staff Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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                      Great story! It's good to see the younger generation interested in old cars. Someone needs to carry on the hobby.
                       
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                      • dartfreak75

                        dartfreak75 Well-Known Member

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                        Thank you my son seems to really like them he is quickly learning i just hope he stays on the mopar path and not those ford and chevys lol na i dont care if my son drove a 69 camaro id be one proud dad lol as long as its not a ricer haha
                         
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