Calling 340 with Holley 650 dp

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340inabbody

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What primary and secondary jet sizes are you guys running assuming non stroked 340 motors with a Holley 650dp.

I am starting my tuning in earnest and I am currently running the stock 67 primaries and 73 secondaries. I believe I need to move up and am curious as to what you guys are running.

I know I know all our engines are different and that matters I know. BUT I am alone tuning without much history, friends etc to bounce questions or ideas off of. I want to gather jets that I can play with so just looking to see what you guys are using to look at the range of jets being used.

Thanks for taking the time to read and help out!

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I’ll kinda agree with Kimmer on the primary being 68-74 ish but the secondary will likely have more spread than he suggests. I’ll say 78-82. Go out and run it wide open, click it off, pull a plug and post a pic.
 
This is currently where I am at. See below. It’s hard for me to read. I see a very small amount of glazing telling me it’s hot. It looks hot. I may have too much advance in at idle. But at heavier throttle I think I am going a bit lean?

What do you guys think? Too rich or too lean?

I just got my bungs welded in so I can hook up an AFR and this will help me.

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Its fat.

Take some idle out perhaps .. or maybe you are into the main circuit at idle... soooo
...what's the base/initial timing set at?

The heat range seems fine.

We need to see a close up of the tang in order to see the timing heat marks/lines for initial and full advance
 
Thank you. Hard for me to tell. Initially I thought that but they are not sooty more like scorched but I am no expert at all. Still learning.
Read the rest, but lets go over a few things like have you checked the vacuum at idle ? That carb comes with a 6.5 power valve. May need a higher rated 8.5
But 1st ...what's the timing initial and full advance?
 
Read the rest, but lets go over a few things like have you checked the vacuum at idle ? That carb comes with a 6.5 power valve. May need a higher rated 8.5
But 1st ...what's the timing initial and full advance?
Ok Ill check the rest of the plugs tomorrow.

Vacuum @ Idle:
In gear 850rpm 5-7Hg > she’ not happy there. Likes a slightly higher idle. Have the secondaries open a little to maintain balance for in/out of gear balance and to maintain correct transition slot opening.

In neutral 1000rpm 10-11Hg

At cruise I get about 14-15Hg max

It had a 125-65 6.5Hg power valve

Not a stock set up. Unknown cam. 12:1 TRW pistons, solid flat lifters, high static compression ~200psi per cylinder.

Running a programmable “Progression” distributor with a map I have been working on. I have to detune it under loading conditions to prevent detonation due to shitty ethanol 91 Octane and high cylinder pressures.

I can post my timing map tomorrow but let’s just say it’s like 15° initially and 31° all in by 3000RPM. But because it’s a map this is not exactly true. At lower RPM like 650rpm in order to keep her running in gear I bump timing way up to about 33°. She then bumps around to maintain the lower idle but she’s not very smooth as you can imagine. This method maybe a little extreme and I need to work on it but I first need to get my mix right.

My float heights front and rear are correct.
 
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OK after writing the above, I see a problem. My power valve is probably too high. I think it’s supposed to be half the lowest idle vacuum. If I truly have 5 to 7 Hg then I need to be about 2.5Hg for the power valve, right?

If this is true, then at idle in gear, I’m super fat because the power valve is dumping fuel……This would explain a lot like fat plugs.

Amazing what just talking to someone makes. Man I wish all you guys were my neighbors.

I believe first I need to get my in gear idle happy again. This should peak my vacuum to around 10Hg maybe. It will increase my out of gear idle RPM however. Then I can make sure my power valve is correct.
 
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If you're into the mains at idle, yeah it can dump through the pv.
Set all your idle screws the same and the blades pri/sec the same.
Get the idle speed to 750/800 rpm
Inital up near 18-21 for now
Higher intial, less throttle blade opening at idle...not in the main circuit.
 
If you're into the mains at idle, yeah it can dump through the pv.
Set all your idle screws the same and the blades pri/sec the same.
Get the idle speed to 750/800 rpm
Inital up near 18-21 for now
Higher intial, less throttle blade opening at idle...not in the main circuit.
18-21 Hg? No way. Highest ever seen was 15Hg at cruise. Idle more like 10-11Hg max! @850rpm vacuum is a premium.

I see what your saying though. If. I am only in the idle circuit then the power valve isn’t active yet right? How do I know she’s in the transition to mains at higher idle set points? Or is idle idle and no mains ever reached until tip in?

She is lopey enough that @ 850RPM in gear makes her unhappy. She likes 1000-1100 rpm…I know too high. This is the quandry.

BTW she is the 4777-7 which has only front mix screws 2 corner?
 
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I agree with Mopar Official. Likely will prefer a PV that opens sooner, and you will probably have to accept slightly higher idle in rpm in N and D.

Let's see this timing/rpm map.

AFR and timing go together hand in glove. I think if you can ge the timing a little closer to what this engine wants then the jetting etc will be easier. Then you can tweak the timing a bit moire and repeat until you are satisfied or you make changes resulting in minimal improvements.

Improvents are defined by better performance. Stronger idle in gear, Higher MPH in the quarter mile, Better fuel milage and higher vacuum while driving steady on flat to slight uphill, Smooth increase in power (throttle response) with increasing throttle. Notice that AFR is not on the list. AFR from a WBO2 can useful as a reference but its not needed, and certainly is not the definition of performance.

From what we know---
High compression pistons. More compression should require less timing lead throughout.
Unknown cam. We can assume that a high overlap cam was installed. This results in more reversion (poor signal) and less compression at idle and low rpm. => more lead time needed.

In gear 850rpm 5-7Hg > she’ not happy there. Likes a slightly higher idle. Have the secondaries open a little to maintain balance for in/out of gear balance and to maintain correct transition slot opening.

In neutral 1000rpm 10-11Hg

I can post my timing map tomorrow but let’s just say it’s like 15° initially and 31° all in by 3000RPM. But because it’s a map this is not exactly true. At lower RPM like 650rpm in order to keep her running in gear I bump timing way up to about 33°. She then bumps around to maintain the lower idle but she’s not very smooth as you can imagine.

15° initial is OK for starting (100 rpm) but too low for idle. If you can program it to step up to 20 or 22° from say 300 to 1000 rpm, that probably will be a reasonable base timing to try to get a good idle with.

At 5-7 "Hg there is not much pressure on the idle circuit. A lot less than when in neutral. Is that with 15° or with 33°? There's also a lot less pressure moving air into the cylinders. Cracking the secondaries helped but maybe will want more air. A bunch of different ways to do that.

If it 5-7"Hg with 15° then making the base timing around 20° will be the next thing to try.
On the carb, there's a few things you can experiment with to richen the slow idle. The easiest without modification is stick wires in the idle air bleeds. (This will also effect off-idle, but the point here is to just see whether richening the idle circuit helps. If 5-7"Hg all that can be obtained then could go true 4 corner idle, but if more vacuum can be developed, then IFRs an sharing the primary idle may be the better approach).
 
Ok Il post my timing map after my MRI today. I appreciate the help guys!
Thank you
 
I am starting my tuning in earnest and I am currently running the stock 67 primaries and 73 secondaries. I believe I need to move up and am curious as to what you guys are running.
What makes you think you need more jet?

When I had a 4777 on my 340, it ended up just a size or two under the factory jet size, which were 67/76.

The 750 brawler on it now seems to like 68s and 76s.
 
This is currently where I am at. See below. It’s hard for me to read. I see a very small amount of glazing telling me it’s hot. It looks hot. I may have too much advance in at idle. But at heavier throttle I think I am going a bit lean?

What do you guys think? Too rich or too lean?

I just got my bungs welded in so I can hook up an AFR and this will help me.

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I guess I should have started my last post with, put new plugs in it. Those plugs have way too much “drive around” or “idle” time on them to get any real good information from, other than its pig fat at idle.
18-21 Hg? No way. Highest ever seen was 15Hg at cruise. Idle more like 10-11Hg max! @850rpm vacuum is a premium.

I see what your saying though. If. I am only in the idle circuit then the power valve isn’t active yet right? How do I know she’s in the transition to mains at higher idle set points? Or is idle idle and no mains ever reached until tip in?

She is lopey enough that @ 850RPM in gear makes her unhappy. She likes 1000-1100 rpm…I know too high. This is the quandry.

BTW she is the 4777-7 which has only front mix screws 2 corner?
Don’t confuse timing with idle vacuum. @MOPAROFFICIAL is talking about timing and you are referencing idle vacuum.
 

Also, don’t set power valve opening point with idle vacuum, it will get you in to the weeds pretty quick. You should use 1/2 cruise vacuum to get you in the starting range. So your 15” in cruise would want a 7.5pv, id go to the nearest earlier opening valve which would be an 8.5.
 
Your erratic timing numbers likely are not helping the tunability at this point. You’re also going to fight detonation with 12:1 on pump gas if you try to bring the all in part of the curve in as early (3000) as you are. For the sake of easy tuning, you could probably lock the timing (set every square in the table to the same number) at like 24 for now and get the carb closer then work on the timing curve.
 
I guess I should have started my last post with, put new plugs in it. Those plugs have way too much “drive around” or “idle” time on them to get any real good information from, other than its pig fat at idle.

Don’t confuse timing with idle vacuum. @MOPAROFFICIAL is talking about timing and you are referencing idle vacuum.
Thanks Ill get new plugs before I start. I will also have my AFR running as well.
 
Thanks Ill get new plugs before I start. I will also have my AFR running as well.
I didn’t mean to randomly just throw plugs in it. You might want to get the tune up a little more dialed in before spending the money on new plugs. But, when you’re ready to read the plug for rich/lean WOT and timing, you’re gonna want new plugs.
That being said, a good tune up will clean a dirty plug up after a few runs.
 
18-21 Hg? No way. Highest ever seen was 15Hg at cruise. Idle more like 10-11Hg max! @850rpm vacuum is a premium.

I see what your saying though. If. I am only in the idle circuit then the power valve isn’t active yet right? How do I know she’s in the transition to mains at higher idle set points? Or is idle idle and no mains ever reached until tip in?

She is lopey enough that @ 850RPM in gear makes her unhappy. She likes 1000-1100 rpm…I know too high. This is the quandry.

BTW she is the 4777-7 which has only front mix screws 2 corner?
12.1 and unknown cam 5in hg vac...


I meant 18-21 initial timing, not vac.
Probably need more like 24 inital, and the idle speed might need to be near 1000 rpm if the convertor isn't right.

What convertor do you have in it again?
 
Also, don’t set power valve opening point with idle vacuum, it will get you in to the weeds pretty quick. You should use 1/2 cruise vacuum to get you in the starting range. So your 15” in cruise would want a 7.5pv, id go to the nearest earlier opening valve which would be an 8.5.
Right, as long as he isn't in the main circuit thats the way to go.
We need to know fuel type, convertor as well.
 
Right, as long as he isn't in the main circuit thats the way to go.
We need to know fuel type, convertor as well.
It’s pretty hard to get on the mains at idle. Recently I was asked to help a “guy” tune an engine because the carb wouldn’t respond. After about 10 minutes of messing with it I realized it was a Holley 570 4 barrel on about a 450hp stroker. What tipped me off was how any crack of the throttle brought the booster on line. Then I noticed how tiny the Venturi was. But even on that thing it didn’t idle on the mains.
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It’s pretty hard to get on the mains at idle. Recently I was asked to help a “guy” tune an engine because the carb wouldn’t respond. After about 10 minutes of messing with it I realized it was a Holley 570 4 barrel on about a 450hp stroker. What tipped me off was how any crack of the throttle brought the booster on line. Then I noticed how tiny the Venturi was. But even on that thing it didn’t idle on the mains.
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Well if he opens the throttle plate enough to keep it idling.. he can certainly achieve that.
Small carb big motor is thing people do whether they know it or not is a Band-Aid to get a lumpy cam to idle
 
Thanks guys. It looks like I got some homework to do and some work to do as well before I report back or do too much. I know there is a question about the converter that I use. I have no idea what converter it is. it’s probably from the 318. Which means it’s nowhere near the power band that I need. And with an unknown cam it’s hard to figure out. I think I’m just gonna use it for now until I either rebuild the motor at some point and optimize the set up more. My goal is drivability more than anything right now not performance AND out here in Arizona. We get 91 shitty gas with ethanol.
 
Thanks guys. It looks like I got some homework to do and some work to do as well before I report back or do too much. I know there is a question about the converter that I use. I have no idea what converter it is. it’s probably from the 318. Which means it’s nowhere near the power band that I need. And with an unknown cam it’s hard to figure out. I think I’m just gonna use it for now until I either rebuild the motor at some point and optimize the set up more. My goal is drivability more than anything right now not performance AND out here in Arizona. We get 91 shitty gas with ethanol.
I’ll be at the duct tape drags in Tucson the weekend of the 17-19. Bring that junk out. I’ll tune it for you.
 
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