1. RustyRatRod

    RustyRatRod 30 Degrees Outta Whack

    Messages:
    55,611
    Likes Received:
    24231
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Location:
    Georgia
    Local Time:
    9:00 PM
    You've still never SAID DIRECTLY what engine this is. So any advice here could be WRONG.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • MOPAROFFICIAL

      MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

      Messages:
      4,117
      Likes Received:
      3099
      Joined:
      Jun 1, 2016
      Location:
      breakwater
      Local Time:
      6:00 PM
      Except mine. lol
       
      • Like Like x 1
      • RustyRatRod

        RustyRatRod 30 Degrees Outta Whack

        Messages:
        55,611
        Likes Received:
        24231
        Joined:
        Jun 7, 2010
        Location:
        Georgia
        Local Time:
        9:00 PM
        Well some things go without sayin. LMAO
         
      • rigger3006

        rigger3006 Well-Known Member

        Messages:
        726
        Likes Received:
        187
        Joined:
        Aug 6, 2013
        Location:
        bc
        Local Time:
        8:00 PM
        sorry MO, in gear, pulled to 7 many a time
         
        • Like Like x 1
        • dartfreak75

          dartfreak75 Restore it, Dont part it! FABO Gold Member

          Messages:
          5,527
          Likes Received:
          3737
          Joined:
          Aug 10, 2011
          Location:
          Virginia
          Local Time:
          9:00 PM
          My 302 heads with stock retainers had .487 clearance with the umbrella seals installed. So you will be close but like already said get the right springs you should be fine. I recommend comp cams 901-16 springs.
           
          • Like Like x 1
          • Agree Agree x 1
          • MattyP

            MattyP Active Member

            Messages:
            44
            Likes Received:
            10
            Joined:
            Sep 4, 2019
            Location:
            Allentown
            Local Time:
            9:00 PM
            Did yours have rotators?
             
          • dartfreak75

            dartfreak75 Restore it, Dont part it! FABO Gold Member

            Messages:
            5,527
            Likes Received:
            3737
            Joined:
            Aug 10, 2011
            Location:
            Virginia
            Local Time:
            9:00 PM
            No
             
          • flyfish

            flyfish C8H18+N2O = :-D

            Messages:
            1,940
            Likes Received:
            476
            Joined:
            Apr 16, 2007
            Location:
            Indy
            Local Time:
            9:00 PM
            Its fine if you disagree with my opinion, but just to give you a little background (Cliff's note version)....I've said this in a few threads around here...short version is, I've run ported 302's and ported J's on the same motor...the 302's were half a second slower in the 1/4 mile compared to the J's....that's a LOT slower (in case you are not a drag racer).

            You rev that thing up to 7k with that small cam.....there is just no reason for that (just saying). Heck, I don't spin my low 10 second small block motor up that high unless I'm running 1/4 mile, and then its only because it has to at the stripe (4.10 gears, 28" tire, do the math) at ~ 129mph, I shift at about 6200rpm (264-268 @0.05 cam).
             
            • Like Like x 1
            • Agree Agree x 1
            • Wyrmrider

              Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

              Messages:
              1,910
              Likes Received:
              857
              Joined:
              Sep 5, 2016
              Location:
              los angeles
              Local Time:
              6:00 PM
              Krooser
              I'll bet that Chet sent that cam out as a free trial
              Great guy
               
            • MattyP

              MattyP Active Member

              Messages:
              44
              Likes Received:
              10
              Joined:
              Sep 4, 2019
              Location:
              Allentown
              Local Time:
              9:00 PM
              guys that take issue with 302 heads, have you done any porting to them before running them?
               
            • dirty white boy

              dirty white boy 47 yr old Juvenal delinquent

              Messages:
              1,102
              Likes Received:
              517
              Joined:
              Dec 15, 2012
              Location:
              stoneville n.c.
              Local Time:
              8:00 PM
              nuttun but hate here for the 302 heads!! if you can port them and install bigger valves you can get 400 hp! lotta folks round here think you gotta buy W2 or eldeblock or indy heads to build a street car....
               
              • Agree Agree x 1
              • yellow rose

                yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                Messages:
                18,393
                Likes Received:
                14427
                Joined:
                Jun 19, 2015
                Location:
                Living on the razors edge
                Local Time:
                6:00 PM

                Nope. I refuse to port that head. It sucks. Grinding on them minimally reduces the amount of suck they are.

                Do what Mopar Official told you a long time ago. Stuff those castings up someone else's butt and buy the correct 360 head. Leave the 1.88 valve in there and put the grinder away. It will run a ton better with way less money and time wasted.

                I just don't get the hard on so many guys have for that emissions head. Part of it I know comes from reading so called hot rod magazine article and now with the web it's even worse. Just because a chamber is of the open variety doesn't make it a bad head, and just because a chamber is of the closed variety doesn't make it a good head. That's just rediculous thinking. That chamber is marginal a best and you can grind until you hit air, coolant, exhaust...whatever and that port will still suck.

                Also, it doesn't take a very long search to learn that a "wide" LSA does NOT make more bottom and mid range power and torque over a "narrow" LSA. In fact, it is quite the opposite.

                I used quotation marks because who gets to determine what is "wide" and what is "narrow"? Beats me, other that the fact that at this point, we get to work with LSA's from ~102-116 or so. So a 110 LSA is really a mid LSA if you like picking the fly poop out of the pepper. And the 110 was selected as the de facto LSA for about 95% of their shelf grinds not because it's better. No, hell no. They did that because they know that virtually 100% of their cores will take a 110 LSA without issue. When you get down to a 107 LSA, you start setting aside probably 30-35% of the cores because you can't fit a 107 LSA on it. Get to 105 and 97% of the cores won't take it. The decision was purely profit based (and I'm fine with that, but the consumer needs to know why it was done) and not based on a correct LSA for most anything, especially with OE type heads.

                That said, I want to point out that LSA should be the result of what the correct TIMING number are, and not some arbitrarily picked number.

                Let's take two cams. They have the exact same timing. Exact same. One is on a 108 and the other is on a 112. What does that tell you??? I know what it tells me. Let me say I wouldn't understand this except for the late Harold Brookshire, who was the owner of Ultradyne Racing Cams. He also made lobes for a number of companies before he died. In fact, the Lunati VooDoo line of lobes are all Harold's lobes.

                So.....to take that 108 LSA cam and make it a 112 LSA what happened? You have to retard the intake lobe, advance the exhaust lobe or some of both.

                The opposite is true. To take the cam on the 112 LSA, you have to either advance the intake lobe and retard the exhaust or some of both? Do you see that?? It is 4 AM right now, and I'm not feeling good so I may have the adjustments incorrect but someone can come along and clean that part up. The point is this: you can't change the LSA without changing the timing.

                The correct way to pick your LSA is use all your numbers and then, and only then, set your intake open and closing points, and your exhaust opening and closing points that are optimum for YOUR combo and then whatever the LSA is, it is.

                You'll get the right cam then, and not some screw ball cam with screw ball timing just to get an "LSA" that someone thinks is better.

                Sorry for the long post.
                 
                • Like Like x 1
                • yellow rose

                  yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                  Messages:
                  18,393
                  Likes Received:
                  14427
                  Joined:
                  Jun 19, 2015
                  Location:
                  Living on the razors edge
                  Local Time:
                  6:00 PM

                  You coulda had another 50-60 HP if you used those 302 heads as dump filler. Why give up power? I just don't get it.
                   
                • rumblefish360

                  rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away

                  Messages:
                  36,004
                  Likes Received:
                  7901
                  Joined:
                  Jun 21, 2005
                  Location:
                  New York, on a Island
                  Local Time:
                  9:00 PM
                  I found the MoPar 302 head to be an excellent unit to have ported for use on a 318 engine. They do not flow like a worked up 360 head. But on the smaller displacement engine and within reason for the typical street hop up to minor brawler, there excellent.

                  If you wanted to try and actually make a 318 into a little killer of a mill, step up in the head department.

                  Air flow IS power! So long as it is quality air flow.
                   
                • AJ/FormS

                  AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s FABO Gold Member

                  Messages:
                  16,747
                  Likes Received:
                  5336
                  Joined:
                  Jan 19, 2014
                  Location:
                  South-Central Manitoba,Canada, 900ftelevation
                  Local Time:
                  8:00 PM
                  I like this statement.

                  For the rest of us,lol
                  A wide LSA has a tendency to push the ICA later and later, which steals compression degrees. which reduces trapping, and with NO OTHER CHANGES, softens the bottom end, and leads to higher stall TCs and such. This is terrible for a heavier street-machine with a small engine. Something like a Barracuda 318 at 3600# car and driver. I have always been confused with the why of Mopar's decision to run the 114LSA 340 cams, and why they stuck with them in the 73 up low-comp engines..
                  On the street with street gears, and a 4-speed; I have never been able to reconcile Wide LSAs because at best, the run to 65mph is ~1.5 gears. So I'd rather have the down-low torque, of a narrow LSA, coupled with a few more ponies at the top, than the alternative with a "wide" LSA.
                  OK I get that the auto guys can get away with it, by running a hi-stall, but that does nothing for the lost power spike. Plus the Wide LSAs kill the overlap cycle, that headers can really exploit.
                  And IMO, hydros are about the worst choice for a NA streeter. Yeah they're quiet, and they're maintenance free; but they cost you in every other way.
                  So a wide-LSA hydro cam, of all flat-tappet cams, for a NA street-performance is, IMO, the least performance oriented, and especially so when installed in a lo-compression street engine; so my question is why in blazes did Mopar stick them into the Low-c 340s?
                  Oh I know............... the light just went on. Firstly is the 340-specific idle-sound,and then; what year did Mopars go to EGR valves and/or airpumps? Another strike against wide LSA cams.
                  Like YR said, 110s are mid-pack.
                  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                  And IMO, the widest I would ever run. My next cam will be a "narrow" LSA solid flatie, with "lots" of overlap,lol.

                  Here's some food for thought; For my next cam, I'm liking a solid at;
                  284/288/on 106. This by the math generates 74* overlap, and this cam may have .050 numbers of 246/250
                  But the spec is say at .006 , and the actual seat-closed to seat-closed might be
                  296/300 but after lashing might be
                  266/270 with an Ica of 58*.

                  Lets compare that to the same 284/288 but on a 114, and now a hydro;
                  seat closed to seat-closed might be 310/316, and the overlap maths to 58*. The ramps are typically 44* so at .050 it looks like
                  244/248/114, but the actual closed intake might not be until 81degrees!
                  Notice the .050s are very very similar
                  Now lets install these in an 8/1 360.
                  First the solid;
                  Static compression ratio of 8:1.
                  Ica of 58*, elevation 500ft

                  Effective stroke is 2.93 inches.
                  Your dynamic compression ratio is 6.73:1 .
                  Your dynamic cranking pressure is 127.58 PSI..............................127.6
                  V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 113 ......................................... 113
                  then the hydro;
                  Static compression ratio of 8:1.
                  Ica of 81*,@500ft

                  Effective stroke is 2.33 inches.
                  Your dynamic compression ratio is 5.56:1 .
                  Your dynamic cranking pressure is 98.01 PSI................................. 98
                  V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 69 ........................................... 69

                  to get the pressure back up to match the solid, I get
                  Static compression ratio of 9.8:1.
                  Ica still 81*@500ft

                  Effective stroke is 2.33 inches.
                  Your dynamic compression ratio is 6.73:1 .
                  Your dynamic cranking pressure is 127.58 PSI.............................. 127.6
                  V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 90 .......................................... 90
                  But check out the VP is still in the basement at 90

                  To max out the pressure at say 165psi
                  Static compression ratio of 11:1.
                  Still 81*/500ft

                  Effective stroke is 2.33 inches.
                  Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.16:1 .
                  Your dynamic cranking pressure is 165.15 PSI.................................. 165.2
                  V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 116 ............................................ 116
                  notice the still weak 116vp

                  So what about the solid? Glad you asked
                  Static compression ratio of 9.8:1.
                  Ica now 58*, still 500ft

                  Effective stroke is 2.93 inches.
                  Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.20:1 .
                  Your dynamic cranking pressure is 166.23 PSI. ................................ 166.2
                  V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 147............................................. 147
                  Notice the killer 147VP

                  What do the numbers mean?

                  Well firstly the .050 numbers come out near identical, so the absolute power numbers will be very similar........ if they also had same overlap.And they do compare well with the 56* of the solid to 58* of the hydro. So far so good.
                  But check out the VPs; of 113solid to 69hydro, both at 8/1 Scr..... Or of 147solid/90 both at 9.8 Scr .. So what's that mean?
                  Well VP is a measuring stick we use for the bottom half of the rpm range, and these numbers clearly show that the solid to be 63% stronger in that window.
                  Now tell me, How much time does your streeter spend in that zone?
                  Well with an automatic, you can run a 3500TC and the only time your engine will be there, it is also not gonna be at WOT, so nobody cares.
                  But if you have a manual trans, you are gonna be in that zone like 95% of the time.
                  Next is the difference in LSAs. The narrow on will make a lil more power at the peak, and a lil less at the bottom, so the curve gets tilted in favor of the manual trans 4-speed which has a narrower powerband requirement... and the bottom end loss is eclipsed by the very strong VP... so winner to the 4-speed. For the automatic, the lower end id erased by the 3500TC, so no big deal there, either way. But, the trans has a 1-2 powerband requirement of 59%.. That is to say if you rev your auto to 5800, then on the 1-2 shift, the Rs will fall to 59% of that or to 3420, or in this case to 3500 plus, which is a powerband requirement of ~2400rpm. In other words your engine better be making some torque down there. Whereas the 4-speed will drop to 72% or from 5800 to 4200 which is 1600rpm so it doesn't need a wide powerband.
                  And now the hammer;
                  With the solid, the power extraction will be about 118*, compared to the hydro at 101* .. Guess which one is gonna suck gas big time! Hyup the hydro.
                  So with the hydro, and an automatic with a 3500 TC, and say 3.55s, the engine will be at ~2870@65mph, and sucking gas to beat all. Whereas, the solid with a manual trans has such a preponderance of low-rpm power that if He wanted to, he could run 2.76s But you know, I like to be fair, so with 3.55s, it too will be running 2870. The difference is that the solid will have the carb nearly closed and is running barely off the idleports.... whereas the hydro/auto will be running quite a bit further up the transfers.
                  So that's a double whammy to the hydro; first is low VP, and second is the wide throttle-opening.
                  With all that VP. the solid/manual trans could easily run an overdrive, whereas for the hydrp/auto, an overdrive would just make things worse; .69 x 2870=1980, and I doubt with a VP of 69 she could pull that, I mean even a slanty has better VP than 69 (87 IIRC) and it has a hard time to cruise 65 at under 2000.

                  So the point is this; there is absolutely no downside, performance wise, to running a big solid-lifter cam on the street, and you don't need the big compression numbers...... so what you didn't spend on new hi-comp pistons, you can now spend on the valve gear.

                  That's my story and I'm sticking to it,lol.
                   
                • rumblefish360

                  rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away

                  Messages:
                  36,004
                  Likes Received:
                  7901
                  Joined:
                  Jun 21, 2005
                  Location:
                  New York, on a Island
                  Local Time:
                  9:00 PM
                  Could you nut shell that AJ?
                   
                • yellow rose

                  yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                  Messages:
                  18,393
                  Likes Received:
                  14427
                  Joined:
                  Jun 19, 2015
                  Location:
                  Living on the razors edge
                  Local Time:
                  6:00 PM

                  I thought I did, but I was wrong!!!!!!!
                   
                • yellow rose

                  yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                  Messages:
                  18,393
                  Likes Received:
                  14427
                  Joined:
                  Jun 19, 2015
                  Location:
                  Living on the razors edge
                  Local Time:
                  6:00 PM
                  Ok, I just read all of post 40.

                  THAT NEEDS TO BE A STICKY AT THE TOP OF THIS FORUM, THE PERFORMANCE FORUM, THE BIG BLOCK AND /6 FORUM.

                  I'm my humble opinion, that post is one of the easiest to read, well laid out, well written threads I've ever read. And the MATH proves the thinking.

                  Sticky that post. PLEASE!!!
                   
                • yellow rose

                  yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                  Messages:
                  18,393
                  Likes Received:
                  14427
                  Joined:
                  Jun 19, 2015
                  Location:
                  Living on the razors edge
                  Local Time:
                  6:00 PM
                  AJ...just because I hate math (I can do it, but I hate it's) would mind working up the numbers for my combo?

                  TIA.

                  340 CID
                  11.08:1 actual measured CR
                  281/281 255/255 .620/.620 105 LSA 105 ICL
                  1.6 rockers

                  What does the math say???
                   
                • rumblefish360

                  rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away

                  Messages:
                  36,004
                  Likes Received:
                  7901
                  Joined:
                  Jun 21, 2005
                  Location:
                  New York, on a Island
                  Local Time:
                  9:00 PM
                  Give him the timing events @.050 or work the calculators yourself and get the answer quicker.
                   
                • yellow rose

                  yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                  Messages:
                  18,393
                  Likes Received:
                  14427
                  Joined:
                  Jun 19, 2015
                  Location:
                  Living on the razors edge
                  Local Time:
                  6:00 PM

                  I did. 281/281 seat and 255/255 at .050

                  I hate math, even with a calculator. I'm serious when I say I'm more a slide rule guy. In fact, my wife has been grinding on me to get a smart phone. She is lucky I have a cell phone. In fact, when we met I didn't have a cell phone. I only got one when we became engaged. And when this old flip phone I has goes to the big phone garbage dump in the sky, I'll never get another one. I'll be back to land line only.

                  Oh, how I fawn for that glorious day!!!

                  Yup, I'm real old school.
                   
                • rumblefish360

                  rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away

                  Messages:
                  36,004
                  Likes Received:
                  7901
                  Joined:
                  Jun 21, 2005
                  Location:
                  New York, on a Island
                  Local Time:
                  9:00 PM
                  No, like the cam card below.
                  1F7E7972-9398-4973-A596-0ACE0B6054BD.jpeg
                   
                • yellow rose

                  yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                  Messages:
                  18,393
                  Likes Received:
                  14427
                  Joined:
                  Jun 19, 2015
                  Location:
                  Living on the razors edge
                  Local Time:
                  6:00 PM
                  • Like Like x 1
                  • yellow rose

                    yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                    Messages:
                    18,393
                    Likes Received:
                    14427
                    Joined:
                    Jun 19, 2015
                    Location:
                    Living on the razors edge
                    Local Time:
                    6:00 PM
                    image.jpeg

                    There it is
                     
                  • yellow rose

                    yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                    Messages:
                    18,393
                    Likes Received:
                    14427
                    Joined:
                    Jun 19, 2015
                    Location:
                    Living on the razors edge
                    Local Time:
                    6:00 PM
                    And yes, I know Jim spelled "break" wrong. He bone headed it because I called him on it. We both had a good LOL on that one.
                     
                  1. This site uses cookies to help personalize content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
                    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.