Cams How do you choose one?

Discussion in 'Small Block Mopar Engine' started by 1965barr, Oct 3, 2018.

  1. 1965barr

    1965barr Active Member

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    Hi , just a little confused which one to choose. I’ve asked the cam company’s got no answer to wild cams. So here goes this is what I have 65 Barracuda #3200 car, A 833 2:66 first gear, 3:55 sure rear 215-60-15 tires, 79 360 stock yes 8:1 with hippo manifolds 2 1/4” exhaust dynomax mufflers, stock 4 bbl intake with carter afb Just a cruiser but fun one. Motor has been rebuilt and heads, since winter is here thinking maybe a cam to have a little more fun.any help on this subject would be appreciated. Can list some cams might be good but don’t know?

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    • ValiantRacing

      ValiantRacing FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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      Something at 215@ .50 on the duration and .450 on lift would work well.
       
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      • toolmanmike

        toolmanmike FABO Staff Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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        Beauty of a Barracuda and welcome to FABO. There are as many cams as there are opinions on which one is best. Buckle up, sit back, and enjoy the ride.
         
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        • 1965barr

          1965barr Active Member

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          Thanks so far ,forgot to add I’m at 3200’ elevation and carb 625 cfm
           
        • nm9stheham

          nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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          What is your use for the car? The application drives the cam selection; cruising/daily driver/around town calls for a different cam than drag racing, for example. And can you tell us what you mean/expect by 'a little more fun'?

          Is the stock cam in it now?

          Nice looking car! One way to have more fun with it is to take it off of the jackstands LOL
           
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          • dartgarth

            dartgarth Well-Known Member

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            Agree.

            Budget option. Summit Racing® Classic Camshafts SUM-6901

            this too. COMP Cams Xtreme Energy Camshafts 20-222-3

            this is a great cam. Crane Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshafts 693941

            This too. Lunati Voodoo Camshafts 10200702

            All these cams are very similar, you need to be careful of getting too much cam because of the exhaust manifolds, 2 1/4" exhaust and the 8:1 compression.

            Here is the write up on the Lunati cam.

            "Hydraulic Flat Tappet. Mid level performance street cam with excellent drivability. Works well with stock type exhaust manifolds and dual plane intake with mild 4 bbl carb. Great 4X4 and performance marine cam where dry exhaust is used. Improved valve springs and roller rockers recommended.

            • Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/268
            • Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 220/226
            • Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .475/.494
            • LSA/ICL: 112/108
            • Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
            • RPM Range: 1400-5800
            • Includes: Cam Only"
            Thanks

            Garth


             
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            • dartgarth

              dartgarth Well-Known Member

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              Beautiful car BTW.

              Garth
               
            • 1965barr

              1965barr Active Member

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              Cruising, I think there is a better cam than stock to get the most out of what I have ,yes stock cam ,lol it won many races sitting on those stands lol ,really car has been ready since May waiting for my front seats haha long story so far but was fun to go around the block on milk carton lol.
               
            • 1965barr

              1965barr Active Member

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              Thanks everyone,Howard cams got back to me with this cam lift .506/.506 duration @.050: 220/220 centreline 104. In my reading isn’t the lift over .450 to much for stock heads?
               
            • dartgarth

              dartgarth Well-Known Member

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              I don't know about that suggestion, they even say it needs headers...
              Lift: .506 / .506, Duration @ .050: 220 / 220, Centerline: 104, Good low & mid-range horsepower, Needs 4-barrel & headers.

              Typically you want a bit more exhaust duration, especially with manifolds...

              I would do some research on how much the stock springs can take for lift, it's a good idea to buy the matching springs for the cam if you can.

              Garth
               
            • toolmanmike

              toolmanmike FABO Staff Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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              You can find a cam that is bigger than the stocker that doesn't necessarily need headers. You will want a split duration with more for the exhaust side to make up for a little restriction.
               
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              • AJ/FormS

                AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

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                You may get away with one or two sizes bigger than stock, limiting your lift to whatever your heads are set up for. After that your 3.55x2.66 starter gear is gonna be a pita, and the pressure loss is gonna show as less performance below 3000 rpm; plus those skinny 215s are hopelessly undersized even for the stock cam..
                My 2cents is to drive that beauty the way it is first, and maybe put some meat on the back... first
                .............................. cuz you know that 3000rpm in first gear is gonna be 24mph.
                So if the current engine cannot initiate a good spin now, it's only gonna get worse with a bigger cam. With no other changes; the bottom end NEVER gets better with a bigger cam. With a manual trans, you have three choices; 1) for free you are gonna have to rev it higher and/or give it more gas to get moving. This helps you nothing at 30 mph. 2) the next cheapest is more rear gear, about one gear size per one cam size will keep you close to par. or 3) pump up the Dcr. This makes the sweetest difference.

                In Lethbridge you are at 3000ft elevation so that sucks your current Dcr down to ~6.64 and the VP into slanty territory at 101VP. This is really soft to start with; because of your elevation. This is softer than a teener at 1000ft, and softer than a 225 at sealevel.
                What I'm saying is you cannot afford to give up any, ANY Dcr!, so I wouldn't cam it at all, until you are ready to pump up the compression.
                For performance,at or near sealevel,you want your Dcr to be closer to 8.0.
                In Lethbridge , probably closer to 8.5Dcr. After that, the bigger cam is likely to only increase your performance somewhere after 4000rpm depending on what you chose. And 4000 with 3.55s in first gear is 32mph, so it better spin a bit else you are gonna be waiting. And you are still gonna have to slip the clutch out.

                Here's an example If you pumped the Scr up to 10.5, you could run an Ica of about 64*, to get a Dcr of 8.4 and pressure of 158psi with a VP of 133VP. This will run on pumpgas at 3000ft, just don't be taking it too much lower.
                So what cam can get you 64*Ica? There's a bunchof them. The biggest perhaps would be a 276/110, what I run,and she'll smoke those skinnys 'til you lift, or 80/90mph if you dare not to. But that 276cam sucks gas and is not very street friendly,and you can't parade with it cuz about the slowest you will be able to drive it is ~5.5 mph, after you have tuned the nuts off it. This is about a 230@.050 cam.
                For your application VR suggested a 215@.050, a good torquey choice for 3000ft. This one might be a 258/266/110, and lets put it in at 106 so it will have an ICA of around 55*; great we can do that with less compression. Let's set it up for 2000ft so you got a bit more wiggle room. Ok I get
                9.7Scr/8.27Dcr/160psi@144VP@2000ft...
                Now at 3000 ft the pressure drops to 155@140VP, and there you have it!

                This will idle down to 650 and drive no slower than 5.1mph, so parading is still out, unless you don't mind roasting the clutch.
                140VP represents a lot of performance below 3000. I think it would make a good cruiser. With a really good first gear romp. And your current gears will take that 215 to ~38mph@4800rpm, before it runs down the back of the power curve, but you will hardly notice it mostly cuz you will be spinning those skinnys, and it will still buzz up to 44mph@5500 no problem,with the right springs. And you have a bit of headroom to go down to 2000ft on perhaps 89 octane and 1000 on 91 . I am at 930, so you can come to Manitoba and visit me.

                For you; if you want close to the best out of your combo,cylinder pressure and ICA are gonna have to be very carefully matched to stay out of detonation troubles.
                There is one other option; aluminum heads. Now you can really make pressure, and if you do it right running up and down to 3000ft won't be a problem.
                But with iron open chamber heads 160psi is nearing the limit......
                 
                Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
              • dartfreak75

                dartfreak75 Well-Known Member

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                Beautiful car very nice!
                I have been looking at this one looks pretty good for your combo. And I have a summit 6900 for sale PM me if your interested.

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                • Ottmundr

                  Ottmundr 68 Fastback

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                  I agree on the lunati 10200702. I went with the 10200701 because I have power brakes and I was trying to stay conservative. I wish I had gone with the 702 and just bit the bullet and swap to manual brakes when I did my cam swap in my 318. I wouldn't go bigger than the 702 with that compression.
                   
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                  • harrisonm

                    harrisonm Well-Known Member

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                    But isn't he just spinning his wheels (pun intended) with a low compression motor and log manifolds? If he is serious about a power gain, won't he need headers, and some decent heads / head work. I don't think those low compression 360s breath very well.
                     
                  • RustyRatRod

                    RustyRatRod Just another dumbass. Technical Editor

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                    Crane 693801 installed at 108 ICL, maybe even 106.
                     
                  • furrystump

                    furrystump Well-Known Member

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                    I leave the cam choice to the really smart people, but I will not put a hyd cam in anything. Hyd lifters are such a crap shoot and the maintenance is over stated. Also if you are somewhat new to engine work. Adjusting the valves is a learning experience and a good opportunity to check the health of the valvetrain.
                     
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                    • Hellrats

                      Hellrats Still wrenching after all these years FABO Gold Member

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                      I've used hydraulic camshafts for years with no problems. The OP said he wanted something a little more than stock to be "Just a cruiser"
                       
                    • nm9stheham

                      nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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                      I too am getting frustrated with the low quality of hydraulics. I'd put them in but be ready to swap out 1-2 in the 1st few k miles if any of them they start leaking down too much and rattling all the time. It never used to be this way.

                      Going to a solid lifter cam requires changeout of the valvetrain to adjustable. And so the can 'o worms starts LOL

                      Yes, the retainers supposedly can start hitting the valve guides and seals somewhere in the .460-.480 ish range.

                      Even with the quick ramps of that particular Howards cam, you back to the old problem of low static CR and so you end up with poor low RPM torque when you go too big on the cam (low DCR). Know that your static CR is actually lower than 8:1. So you are digging yourself into a deeper hole in regards to low RPM torque if you cam it up.

                      I am in the same boat as post #12 on this. Too big of a cam for this application and starting CR is almost anything. Unless you at least mill the heads at least something like .030" to bump up the static CR, I would not cam it or only go to something like the Lunati Voodoo 10200700. At least you get a bit more lift than stock and the ramps are fast so the DCR/low RPM torque does not get hurt too bad. With this small Voodoo cam, the DCR is 7 at sea level, not much worse than stock. It'll drop to 6.4 at 3000', again not much worse than stock..... but, ow, that hurts to even think about for a cruiser LOL (Note: I refined the DCR numbers and edited them above.)

                      OP, any chance you would consider milling the heads to get better CR? You'll have to R&R the intake and heads and find a shop to mill them.
                       
                      Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
                    • 1965barr

                      1965barr Active Member

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                      Thanks again for the comments and ideas. More questions have come up RRR have you use that cam in a 360 before? Dart freak75 been following your cam learning. Harrisonm is right want to keep 340 exhaust no headers for this car. AJ and nm9stheham you have me thinking I might have to do something for more squeeze, now how much can you take off the heads and use a different head gasket and don’t have to worry about changing push rod length? Trying to keep it simple and not spend lots if I did a cam I would do springs ,lifters and cam new of course.or do I just change pistons? Lots to learn even at my age.lol bought the car when I was 16 sat in dads garage 42 years lol and 1 year to rebuild it lol my neighbor across the street has a sweet 67 gets dart with a 340 al heads motor but it has headers lol almost forgot AJ my wife wants a drivers seat in that car to fry those skinny’s and yes it will spin those skinny on a milk carton lol they don’t make wide redline tires.
                       
                    • Wyrmrider

                      Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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                      Tough call
                      light car, 4 speed and reasonable gears
                      however low compression and stock hp manifolds so we will need early intake close to build some cylinder pressure and a slightly longer exhaust
                      your best shot
                      go to the Stan Weiss site and find some comparable head flow numbers
                      fill this out
                      Street Performance | Jones Cams
                      if his one and only Mopar Hyd is not a fit go solid Flat Tappet with EDM lifters rockers like the 273 used
                      Comp really has nothing that even comes close
                      maybe Lunati Voodoo or howard with the "footnote 15" in the catalog Bullet is also a good choice
                      problem is getting anyone that knows Mopars at the bigger cam grinders Engle knows mopars
                      problem is finding someone that knows low compression mopars
                      Bottom line is that too much duration and you have a real dog Jones can answer the question how much is too much
                      there are several other threads on low compression motors- most are automatics one thread has tall gears and an OD- another tough combination
                      IMHO you are looking for short seat duration but big duration at 200 and higher
                       
                    • RustyRatRod

                      RustyRatRod Just another dumbass. Technical Editor

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                      I have used it in several small blocks. 360s, 381s and a 340.
                       
                    • 1965barr

                      1965barr Active Member

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                      Thanks Wyrmrider just did Jones thing this is why I asked mind is a little different ,RRR did you do anything to raise compression or just stock ?
                       
                    • RustyRatRod

                      RustyRatRod Just another dumbass. Technical Editor

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                      Ran them several different ways, but I must admit the damned best one was an other wise stock 360. 8.5:1, 340 intake, Thermoquad, headers. Cam degreed in at 110ICL like the card said. That car ran 13.90s with 3.23 gears and 13.40s with 4.10s. I drove that car every day for a couple of years. It was a very fun car.
                       
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                      • Wyrmrider

                        Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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                        Nothing wrong with crane quality
                        and I like TQ's
                        278 crane degrees is more like a 270 comp/ lunati/ howard/ etc so do not translate 278 crane to 280 comp a XE275HL comp is going to be a much bigger cam
                        IMHO still too big seat duation for an 8:1 motor
                        but depends on how you would like to drive it- easy or hot rod
                        how much lift will your valvetrain take (keeper to seal) are you stock
                        is your valve job good for more than .450 lift- multi angle and blended down the bowl?
                        If so get valve open- hold it open at whatever lift you can handle- close it Keep it simple no reason for a lot of lift if your heads do not flow at more lift
                        There is no need of almost half inch lift on the exhaust with stock valve job- uncut valve guides- aftermarket stem seals- BVVC of your clearances at that lift
                        I've been campaigning against extra long exhaust duration but in the case of stock exhaust ports and stock HP manifolds the 12 degree spread should be ok
                        Let's see what Jones says-- I've been wrong before
                        Jones Hyd compared to DC 260
                        461 (.305 lobe) 264@.004 202 @.050 120@200 64@275 Jones Special
                        430 212@050 115@200 42@.275 DC 260 is about 10 degrees bigger than the Jones on the seat but Jones is 50% bigger where it counts DC260 is measured by MOPAR method not .004 more like .008
                         
                        Last edited: Oct 5, 2018