1. autopar3000

    autopar3000 Well-Known Member

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  2. ILLDuster74

    ILLDuster74 Well-Known Member

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    Saw the article on Yahoo said it will get 230 MPG in the city. But only 40 miles on the batteries. And takes 8 hours to recharge. Sounds good, but at
    40K, seems expensive esp with all the gov incentives.
     
  3. ramcharger

    ramcharger Dismember

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    Our electrical grid is on the verge of collapse as it is. Imagine what will happen when everyone plugs their car in at 5:30-6:00 pm after work.

    We've got other things to worry about in regards to our infrastructure before the government starts making dumb ass mandates that manufacturers can't meet due to the technology available today. The battery technology just is not there yet. The only way this could be viable on a large scale in the present day would be to have large photo-voltaic cell arrays everywhere someone parks their car during the day that could be tapped into. The cost would be astronomical and really only feasible in the southwest where we have buttloads of sunshine.

    Our bridges, dams, levee's, power grid, water and sewer systems are on the verge of a third world country's. Why in the world we don't take every able bodied person on unemployment and welfare, pay them a couple bucks more an hour, train them and rebuild our country I just don't know. I'd do it and be damn proud of it.

    It sure makes more sense than throwing money at failing mortgage/insurance companies so the CEOs can blast around in their private jets and rape the companies, shareholders and employees for millions in bonuses. I thought that's how capitalism is supposed to work? The company fails because it was mismanaged and another company that is not mismanaged reaps the benefits of additional customers?

    Ok, I feel better now. :)
     
  4. Motopsycho

    Motopsycho 69 Darts Rule

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    hell yes
     
  5. cudaspaz

    cudaspaz Well-Known Member

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    Gay.

    The thing could run on air and the enviro hippies will still find a way of taxing and demonizing the emmissions or lack thereof.
     
  6. sic71dart

    sic71dart Well-Known Member

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    Reinvest in the countries infrastructure ? What are you some kind of commi ? With plugging in hybrid cars btw if charged at night time during off peak hours I have read here and there that the grid can handle it pretty well, during high demand hours then no. What do I think of the car? I will give GM credit for all the hard work done to get the car ready for production as quickly as they did, its a game changing vehicle and I think it hits the sweet spot of minimal gas consumption during daily commutes with its 40 mile range as well as the convenience of still being able to travel long distances if you want to do it, most other electric cars like the new Nissan Leaf will only have a 100 mile range which pretty much condemns you to owning at least 1 other vehicle if you plan on doing any traveling.
     
  7. ramcharger

    ramcharger Dismember

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    The grid can't even handle people's air conditioning in the summer. How do figure it would handle millions of cars recharging? Show me where it says our grid can handle that. Are you going to mandate laws when people can charge their cars? Install timer/meters in everyone's garage? That sound more commie than putting people to work to fix this nations ills.

    The "American Society of Civil Engineers" has given our infrastructure a "D". 2.2 trillion dollars would be needed to just bring it up to a "B". Here's just one of hundreds of articles http://www.scientificamerican.com/b...cfm?id=us-infrastructure-crumbling-2009-01-28 Note that we are losing 7 billion gallons of clean drinking water a year just from leaky pipes.
    Here's some more info:
    http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/ I don't believe a thing that comes out of Obama's mouth though, lol.
    Here's another: http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/fact-sheet/energy

    I could do this for hours. This is being compared to the collapse of the roman empire and even the Chinese engineering community can't believe how far we've slipped and are blown away by the rash of bridge collapses we have. This problem affects everyone here. Without clean water, power, good sewers and safe bridges we are nothing but a third world country ripe for take over. These problems can throw this country into turmoil, violence and economic collapse. We are just a transformers explosion away from the stone age.
     
  8. sic71dart

    sic71dart Well-Known Member

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  9. ramcharger

    ramcharger Dismember

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    Sorry, I didn't see a sarcasm smilie, lol. No big deal. I wonder what "advanced metering initiatives" really means though.

    ""Rate design to encourage off-peak charging, coupled with time-of-use rates, and smart grid/advanced metering initiatives, would facilitate favorable charging behavior," it said." It also mentioned the compatibility of night time charging with wind power but never mentions if there's enough wind turbines available to fuel the need.
     
  10. autopar3000

    autopar3000 Well-Known Member

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    This is the kind of healthy debate I was looking for. Here's my take: I drive about 7 miles to work every day, which takes me about 15 minutes. I'd love to take the bus, but that would take me over an hour (maybe that's the real problem - unless you're downtown public transit sucks!)

    A Volt would be perfect for me; I wouldn't even be putting too much load on the grid when I charge it thanks to my 14 mile round trip. Here's the problem: my daily driver is a 1991 Honda Accord. It cost me $1500 3 years ago, it runs like a champ and hasn't had any issues in the time that I've owned it. Who's going to hook me up with a Volt for $1500? I think it will be quite a while before I'm driving a plug in electric car.
     
  11. camd64

    camd64 Remember Landy

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    I think its great that the electric cars are coming along but I think we are getting the electricity the wrong way. why not use the hydrogen technology like in the clarity? some people will argue the safety factor but the same concerns came up when gas cars first showed up. also what about compact diesels? 75+ mpg compact diesels cars are already here and its a crop that american farms can grow tons of! putting many americans back to work. my 2 cents.
     
  12. ramcharger

    ramcharger Dismember

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    I'll bet a replacement battery pack costs more than 5 of your Hondas. I'd also like to know how much it will truly cost on someones power bill on a monthly basis.

    Agreed camd64, there's got to be a better way. I'm a big fan of photovoltaic cells and I have done quite a bit of research on it. Free electricity from sunshine? How cool is that, lol. No moving parts to wear out and zero maintenance. Anyway, aside from their cost, the biggest problem is storing that energy. Again, we're back to the battery issue. If someone could design a battery that would give back even 90%-95% percent of the energy that was used to charge it, store it for a month and not be affected by cold weather they'd be multimillionaire. Presently, any decent size battery's capacity is only 35% @ -20F vs. room temperature.
     
  13. Badart

    Badart Senior Member

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    Don't worry the Cap and Tax bill will take care of your electric bill. If this passes you will see a huge hike in your electric bill.

    If you ask me this is the answer. Volkswagon has had the Polo Blue in Europe for a couple of years. It is a clean diesel that gets 72 mpg on the highway. TopGear did a test on this and it has over a 700 mile range. This is the North American model in a Jetta that gets 60 mpg on the highway.
    http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/04/vws-blue-but-thats-not-bad.html
     
  14. sic71dart

    sic71dart Well-Known Member

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    You should look into solar thermal technology. Its more efficient than photovoltaic and the energy can be stored as heat at night time in large tanks of superheated liquid salt to produce continuous reliable power. Plus its beautifully simple in that it works by just concentrating solar energy and using it to run a conventional generator like a coal or nat gas plant would. Regardless of the global warming debate, fossil fuels are FINITE and will be depleted in the coming decades. If we don't to revert back to a pre industrial society we better get a move on more sustainable energy sources.
     
  15. Racingduster

    Racingduster Certified Welder

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    Im a welder for CATERPILLAR and we make all of the paving equipment for asphalt. If that money would really do a damn thing then I can go back to work and not sit on the internet all day, Dont get me wrong, I LOVE this but.......It could be better
     
  16. Charrlie_S

    Charrlie_S Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if that 230 mpg number, includes the amount of energy required to recharge the batteries, or if that is just the gasoline put in the tank.
     
  17. homecloned

    homecloned Can't re Member

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    I watched a show on the Discovery channel about this and more ramcharger. It was describing the whole infastructure of our country, from power grids, dams, bridges, subway systems, sewer systems, you name it. They are so out of date it will take a very long time to correct it all. This country need's more then a 40k car to save it.
    While watching the news on monday night they were interveiwing car dealerships that claimed to have run out of cars. This looked so staged and phoney even the dealership manager looked like he was lying about all of it.
    Don't drink the cool aid!
     
  18. Lone Yankee

    Lone Yankee Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea what the iron and copper losses are on this thing, much less line-drop impedance losses for charging. Since it is not possible to move energy from point A to point B without spilling some in the middle, I wonder what its net efficiency is compared to a vehicle that makes it energy where it uses it.

    Done anyone know?

    Just a though. -LY
     
  19. scuba0331

    scuba0331 Well-Known Member

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    Good point. I like to know how much energy it takes to recharge the batterie versus using gas engines.

    I would also like to see a study that shows how more or less environmentally friendly it would be if everybody had electric cars versus gas cars. I think people forget that it takes some type of fossil fuel to power an electric plant.

    I don't think wind and water make up a substantial part of the electrical grid.

    Just a few things to ponder........
     
  20. memike

    memike Super Moderator Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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  21. homecloned

    homecloned Can't re Member

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    Right on scuba.
    Two words....SOLAR POWER
    The reason we are not full solar especially in the south is because the governmant hasn't figured out a way to screw us(tax) on it yet.
     
  22. ramcharger

    ramcharger Dismember

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    I have seen this and it really is cool technology. I believe they have a test site for this in New Mexico IIRC. The only real downside is it's not something you can do at home, lol. I had 42 acres of land a ways back and was looking into being 100% independent of the grid. Photovoltaic supplemented by wind was the only real alternative with solar again for hot water. This is easier to pull off here in the sunny southwest than it would be in the midwest or east.

    I hear ya. I looked at over 1500 jobs yesterday and found 6 that I'm qualified for. I did see a big ad for a local construction company looking for asphalt laborers so I'm hoping that trickles down your way. :)

    I saw that show too and it was freakin' scary!

    Good question LY. In addition the impedance losses you mentioned on step-down and rectification, there are other problems too.

    As far as batteries are concerned, power in vs. power stored is called coulombic efficiency, then we have resistive efficiency which has to do with the fact that batteries must be charged at a higher voltage than they supply. The best battery technologies today are at about 75% when both these numbers averaged. Then we have Puekert's effect where coulombic efficiency drops off rapidly as current draw is increased. Then we have the aforementioned effect of temperature on batteries capacity. Of course there will be losses just due to the wiring in vehicle itself, power to run gauges, lights, heater, stereo, power windows, seats, etc.
     
  23. ILLDuster74

    ILLDuster74 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Camd64 about the Hydrogen. Its only pollution from the vehicle is water, of course electricity is need to make the hydrogen, so wind, solar and nuclear could generate the electricity. I also believe that we need to have more nuc plants, France gets 89% of thier electricity from Nuc power.
    Much safer, cleaner that gas or coal plus the left overs glow pretty colors!
     
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