Comparing manual trans options - variables other than gear ratios?

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MRGTX

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Aside from gear ratios, I don't see a lot of comparison between the possible transmissions in terms of other variables. Did any other factors impact your decision? How did you pick yours? Would you change it if you could? Any regrets?

These are transmission options that I see tossed around the most:

A833
A833 aluminum case (and overdriven 4th?)
A855 (Passon Perforance 5 spd)
TKO
TKX
T56
T6060(?) Viper, etc.
Others?

If we put aside the number of gears and their ratios, which ones compare favorably or unfavorably for the following variables (or anything else that I didn't think of):

Strength
Longevity/durability
Parts availability
Cost to purchase
Complexity of installation
Mass
Driveline energy loss
Noise
Driving experience/shifter feel/clutch engagement
Unique problems??
 
Gear ratios and desired engine power output is usually the biggest things.
If you just had a /6 then a t5 might be a really good option because it's really lightweight and has good gears for modern cruising along with good part availability. If you wanted any real mopar v8 you might overpower a t5 really quickly.
An 833 with a 1:1 4th gear is pretty darn stout but they can be heavy with cast iron case and in general don't like modern freeway speeds (if you plan on driving on the freeway)
An 833 OD can cruise better on the freeway but has long gears with a big rpm drop between each gear so they are really not meant for high performance applications but can be good in a cruiser.
The passion 833 5 speed always sounded cool to me but I constantly hear people complain about having to wait FOREVER for part availability.
All the other T_ _ _ transmissions listed are pretty straightforward with listing their ideal power output capacity.
Past all that, I have never heard of any of the listed transmissions being "unreliable" when used in their proper power capacity
 
It depends on how much you want to cut the floor.
If I was willing to cut the floor, I’d be looking for a Doug Nash 5 speed as my first choice. I’m not concerned with how many RPM the tach says going down the freeway so I don’t need an OD.

You can get a 3.25 first gear in the Nash, and even lower if you want it and 5th is direct. 5 gears are faster than 4. Always.

After that I’d do the Passon 5 speed. It’s a gear box. Whatever is causing issues should be quite easily fixed by someone half competent about gear boxes.


Then the 3.09 first gear 833. I use the 3.09 box right now. Someday, when I’m rich I will buy a Passon 5 speed. If it doesn’t work, all you need is a mill and a lathe.
 
Also remember that with most of the later Txxx trans. you won't have a cable drive speedo hookup. Admittedly, it's a small point- but just be aware that you'll need to add the cost of a VSS or GPS driven speedo to the cost of the swap.
 
A833
A833 aluminum case (and overdriven 4th?)
A855 (Passon Perforance 5 spd)
TKO
TKX
T56
T6060(?) Viper, etc.
Others?

Of your list, the only one one I have heard comments about for drivability is the TKO. Pretty sure they drive fine for the most part, but I have heard of complaints about high RPM shifts being difficult.

You could add the AX15/MA5/AR5/R154 series of Aisin trans to the above list. Not bad options, but not perfect either.

In regards to complexity, the TKX has the option to keep the mechanical linkage. TKO might as well, don't remember now. This might reduce complexity, just depending on your setup.
 
A year's worth on the A855.

The same amount of time that it would take to get one if ordered now.

I’ve heard about the popping out of 4th problem. Has anything else been an issue?
 
Back in the day I used to use Saginaw transmissions in a circle track application, similar rooster comb interlock to the '71-up 833. A little bit of die grinder work on the comb is all it took to keep them from popping out of high gear, basically just a little steeper ramp profile on that part of the 3/4 comb.

Grant
 
Back in the day I used to use Saginaw transmissions in a circle track application, similar rooster comb interlock to the '71-up 833. A little bit of die grinder work on the comb is all it took to keep them from popping out of high gear, basically just a little steeper ramp profile on that part of the 3/4 comb.

Grant


The Passon box uses rails and not the interlock style mechanism.
 
The Passon box uses rails and not the interlock style mechanism.

On my Toploader applications, I move rail detent notches when I install faceplates to reflect the shorter slider travel. Much the same as with the Saginaw, a steeper notch wall in the rail makes it much harder to pull a Toploader out of gear. The Toploaders also have different shaped ends on the interlock and detent pins, the shape where they engage the rail notches also have an effect on how hard it is to pull the trans out of gear. I've never had an A855 in my hands, but I would not hesitate to massage the parts to keep it from popping out of high gear.

Grant
 
I prefer the A833 or the A833 O/D. I can use my favorite Hurst shifter and linkage. OEM parts and everything works as it should. I have run most of the standard A833 gear sets and O/D gears. I like them all, I have no problem with the much reported gear splits, and I run a 273. The biggest problem with the 3.09 first gear is that I am through it so quickly. I like the shift pattern on a 4 speed best. I don't like the shift pattern on 5 or 6 speed boxes as much. We ran these A833 cars all day long at high speed and 3.23 gears turning about 2,500 rpm. Why mangle up a car we loved for a little lower gear and a box not made for your car?
 
Has anything else been an issue?
6k for a 4 speed.

Popping out of 4th has been and still is an ongoing problem, yet they still sell it.
They don't stand by their warranty, lie, blame the customer, then never respond until you send correspondence promising to file a claim.
The beauty of that is, and they're all too stupid to realize, in PA, iirc, you can recover multiple times your loss plus court costs.

Anyway you slice it, any issues, it's completely up to you to force a resolution, at every step, after every agreed path forward.

6k for a 4 speed is just the beginning.

I encourage everyone to draw their own conclusions:
A855 - 5 Speed
 
Passon didn't design, engineer, build, make, or even think of anything. Not the A855 or the Overdrive.
He doesn't source the parts, build them, service them, do the warranty work, hold the warranty, nothing.

And he'll tell you that, once you have an issue, not before.

GFI does it all, and they suckered a third party into dumping hundreds of thousands of $s into it, who also now owns his own b-body with a 5 speed that pops out of 4th.

It's all a scam, they're all criminals.
 
Passon didn't design, engineer, build, make, or even think of anything. Not the A855 or the Overdrive.
He doesn't source the parts, build them, service them, do the warranty work, hold the warranty, nothing.

And he'll tell you that, once you have an issue, not before.

GFI does it all, and they suckered a third party into dumping hundreds of thousands of $s into it, who also now owns his own b-body with a 5 speed that pops out of 4th.

It's all a scam, they're all criminals.


As weedburner said, it can’t be a hard fix. It’s a gear box. Been around forever. There is nothing trick to it.
 
Passon/GFI couldn't fix my A855 three different times, and couldn't fix the replacement one at all, after multiple attempts in house.
 
Passon/GFI couldn't fix my A855 three different times, and couldn't fix the replacement one at all, after multiple attempts in house.


I remember. I read every post in your thread. I say it’s fixable. Why they didn’t/couldn’t fix it I can’t say but it’s a gear box. They’ve been around forever. You can’t get a more basic design.

And if by some chance it couldn’t be fixed, someone should have been able to identify the issue and figure out a way to correct the part in production rather than in the field.
 
For the street?
with a SBM, anything more that 5 gears is a waste.
IMO;
it will be very hard to find a more lovable set of gears. than this;
10.97-6.82-4.97-3.55-2.77
These are the Roadgears of the A833Commando, plus the GVod, plus 3.55s

On the street;
Your starter gear needs to offer from 8.5 to not more than 11/1. I have run starters outside this range , but for different reasons, didn't like them. My favorites would be between 10 and 11/1
Your top gear needs to offer not less than about 2200 rpm at your cruising speed, because the factory distributor cannot supply enough ignition advance, even at this rpm, to run in full fuel-economy mode, at less rpm.
To get 2200 at say 65 with 27s requires a roadgear of 2.72
With a 1.00 final gear in the box, you need a 2.72 rear gear. Your starter then needs to be 10.5/2.72=3.86; which is pretty steep, and not even close to 2.72
But if you have more low rpm power, then as low as 8.5/2.72=3.13. Getting closer.
So while this is difficult to engineer with a non-overdrive, you can see just how close this gets.
Let's try a 5-speed.
The parameters are the same, namely a stater near 10/1 and a cruiser near 2.72
Lets try an overdrive of .78.
Your rear gear now needs to be 2.72/.78=3.49
And your starter would then; say 10.78/3.49=3.09
Now yur cooking.
But the standard A833 will still get you 2.66x3.49=9.28starter which is still in the ball-game.

But if you intend to cruise at 75mph then the .78 od is Not enough. NOW yur looking at at a deeper od. For the same 2200, but now at 75mph, the road gear required is 2.36s.... and good luck with that. So now you have to allow more rpm, or you need another trans gear. Suppose you keep the 4-speed and the 2.72s, Now to cruise at 75, the rpm needs to be 2540 so not the end of the world.
A 5-speed will do it better. BUT, as shown, the Low gear needs to be at least 3.09 with a typical mid-level SBM. If you have a large amount of cylinder pressure, or a modest cam, or a bigger engine, or just don't need the 3.6 minimum roadspeed; then you don't need that deep a starter gear.

I have run every Classic Mopar 4-speed there is, some/most with the GearVendor od behind it. I have run them with 3.23s to 4.88s.
My engine is a modest 367@11/1 Scr running a modest cam. The pressure runs around 180 or a tic less.
My favorite combination is the 3.09Commando with the .78 GVod behind it.
My favorite gears to run are the 3.55s, for two reasons; 1) the starter gear is deep enough that I can drive it at 3.6mph, and 2) 65=2240rpm for which my distributor can provide just 46 degrees. But the engine wants about 56*. So the missing degrees are provided by a dash-mounted, dial-back, timing retard box.
My engine would easily pull less rear gear, but since 65mph is the speed limit up here, there is no point cuz the car would NOT get any better fuel economy at the lower hiway rpm.
Plus, 60mph in Second gear, with the current 3.55s, is an already low 5100; a lesser rear gear would only stifle performance.
I can tell you that starting out from a stoplight in traffic, with any more starter gear than 11/1, is getting borderline annoying, unless you have a 1-2 split around 0.60.. So then, running a Regular A833 (2.66low) and 4.30s (starter of 11.44) is a PITA, when 1.92 second gear is only a .72 split. It's just not enough rpm drop.
I can also tell you that for a streeter, Second gear will be the gear that you will spend most of your time in, so it better be right. If it spans from 30/35 to 60/65 mph, you will be a happy happy guy. This is a span of nearly 50%. So like 60=6000, and 30=3000. But I Don't think that other than the A833od, you will not find a trans with this much 1-2 split. But In my experience, this is just too much anyway. .62 is way better.
So I will give you my opinion; gear your 5-speed car for top of Second gear to be at 58/60 mph at the power-peak and you will be a happy happy man. Say you have a power peak at 5100, like I do, this will require a roadgear of 6.94. If you have a Second gear of 1.92, as I do, this comes to a rear gear of 3.61( rounds to 3.55). Just make sure the engine isn't too peaky, and it will easily pull to 65@5500 ... and beyond. So then, with the starter gear needing to be around 10/11 I get 10.5/3.55=2.96 (rounds to 3.09s, lol.)
To summarize;
The Commando gears plus the GVod are
3.09-1.92-1.40-1.00-.78od
with 3.55s the roadgears are
10.97-6.82-4.97-3.55-2.77 the splits are
.62-.73-.71-.78

IMO; it will be very hard to find a more lovable set of gears.
 
Why is 11 the highest (numerically)first gear?

I’ve run from 12.67 to over 15. I prefer the lower (ratio, numerically higher) than the other way around.
 
For a streeter, the Second-gear shift comes too early.,
To me it's just eating up my gears and increasing my cruise rpm at the other end. The factory 340s had 2.66x3.55=9.44 which was enough starter to lay rubber all thru that gear.
The only reason, IMO, to run higher than 10, is if you want to drive real slow, but your engine won't idle real slow.
My engine will idle down to 550 in road gear of 10.97 (3.09 x 3.55), which gets me down to 4.0 mph; a brisk walking speed.. At 500 it gets to 3.66mph.
If you spend your gearage on 4.56s, then sure, you get 2.66x4.56=12.13, but then you live with the hiway buzzzzzzzzzzzz @65=3700. which even with a GVod is still 2900.

In town when tooling around, I like to shift at 2800. My engine sounds real good there, and she can easily handle the rpm drops. With my gears, the speeds related to this are; 20/33/45/63
If I had 4.56s (12.13 starter) the speeds would be;.......... 16/26/35/49
Look at the numbers. My Second gear is your Third. My Third gear is your Fourth.
In this configuration; my gears give up 4mph to 4.56s at the bottom, to gain 14 at the top.
Since my engine can smoke thru First gear starting at any speed, I do not see the point of running more starter than the 11/1 currently in it.

I tried 4.88, 4.30s, 4.10s, 3.91s, 5.13s even, and with the various boxes that have First gears of 3.09 and 2.66, and 2.47.. This was to get the Second gear I wanted together with a trap-gear that I wanted., trying to make my car BOTH a streeter and a good-traping quartermiler. Which I found out, that with my engine, was just about impossible to hit both marks. So I concentrated on making it a good streeter.
Please notice, I prefaced post#18 thus;
For the street?
I am NOT trying to bust yur balls, not at all;
and only stated MY preferences, as it applies to a streeter.

Now, I can tell you one more thing;
I ran the A833od with the GVod being used as a Splitter, with 4.30s. The Road gears were;
13.29-10.36-7.18-5.60-4.30-3.35-2.38 hyup 7 ratios.
Notice the 10.36 and the 7.18. I was trying to use the 10.36 as my starter. The 7.18 was a good Second Gear,
The 13.29 was supposed to be my dragstrip starter. But the GVod would not hold 10.36 in gear for a full stop-light, so then it would slip on take off; not much, but for the cost of the unit, I wasn't gonna take any chances. I came to hate that 13.29 as a daily-Driver, so out the whole shebang came.
I now use the Commando, and still occasionally Split gears. The new Roadgears, GV in red, are;
10.97-8.56-6.82-5.32/4.97-3.88-3.55-2.77 the splits are;
----.78---.80---.78---.93---.78---.91---.78
While this shows up as 8 gears mathematically, two of the GV splits are too close to be usable , one behind the other. That makes it a sortof Six speed.
I use the First four ratios in The Eighth Mile to trap 93@6160 on the New cam that peaks around 5300. From 5.32 to 2.77 is .52
As a DD,I usually shift into od after Third and then jump to Fourth-over, like this
10.97-6.82-4.97-3.88-2.77 ; From 3.88 to 2.77 is .71
But sometimes I stretch out Second, then split, and then jump to Fourth-over like this
10.97-6.82-5.32-2.77 ; From 5.32 to 2.77 is .52
But if Ima showing off, then
10.97-8.56-6.82-2.77, cuz 6500 in 6.82 is already over 75mph. From 6.82 to 2.77 is .41


I love this combo.
 
Ok so IMO
the ideal ratios would start with a granny-low for the dragstrip, then a normal low, then a pair of tight splits, then a deep overdrive.

I really like the 6.82-Second gear of my combo; then tight splits of say 5.32-4.15- then an overdrive around 2.70 and a deep low around 14/15. and lets put First gear at around 10.0 ; Line em' up!
14.5-10.0- 6.82-5.32-4.15-2.70.. OOps there is no such a thing as 4.15s so......
So it looks like the Final drive will be say 4.10s..
Now lets back it up; 4.10 to 5.26 to -6.74-to 10 to 14/15 and the 2.70
Putting them back in the right order, I get
14/15-10.0-6.74-5.12-4.10-2.70 and the splits are;
Ok first we gotta get a low-gear that physically fits in the box so 10/4.10=2.44 so no problem there, and 14/4.10= 3.41 so that too is doable maybe just barely. Better switch to 4.30s
so then 14.5/4.30=3.37 Ok that granny should fit in the box.
So then with 4.30s I get numbers like;
15.3-10.10-7.07-5.38-4.30-2.70 and splits of
.66-.72-.76-.80- .63od

I sorta like it;
You got your drag-strip starter, 15.3
your Regular starter; 10.10
your 7.07 Second gear (60=5300)
two more regular tight progressive splits, 5.38 and 4.30
and the deep-overdrive; 65=2180
Ok, I like it a lot. Just not enough to pay big bucks for.
Fun with math...........
 
I remember. I read every post in your thread. I say it’s fixable. Why they didn’t/couldn’t fix it I can’t say but it’s a gear box. They’ve been around forever. You can’t get a more basic design.

And if by some chance it couldn’t be fixed, someone should have been able to identify the issue and figure out a way to correct the part in production rather than in the field.
I have one. Brand new in the box sitting in my garage. Had it for 5 years. Haven’t used it yet. But I will say this. If I have these problems that matthon did, I’ll be sending it to Paul Cangialosi. I would have liked to see what he said if he was able to inspect matthon’s transmission.

Anyways if I have those problems, that’s where it’s going.
 
I have one. Brand new in the box sitting in my garage. Had it for 5 years. Haven’t used it yet. But I will say this. If I have these problems that matthon did, I’ll be sending it to Paul Cangialosi. I would have liked to see what he said if he was able to inspect matthon’s transmission.

Anyways if I have those problems, that’s where it’s going.


I’m not sure who Paul Cangialosi is, but if you think he can fix it, it’s definitely worth letting him take a shot at it. If he can fix it it would help a lot of guys fighting that issue.

It may be worth it to let him look it over before you install it. He may catch it and fix it right up. How cool would that be????
 
I’m not sure who Paul Cangialosi is, but if you think he can fix it, it’s definitely worth letting him take a shot at it. If he can fix it it would help a lot of guys fighting that issue.


It may be worth it to let him look it over before you install it. He may catch it and fix it right up. How cool would that be????

He wrote this book, and has an excellent YouTube channel. it might not be a bad idea for him to check it over… I’ll think about it.

5Speeds Transmission Home Page

51D614E1-2C28-4E49-B7A7-2FC39CA7FFB1.jpeg
 
The guy says "other than gear ratios" and what's AJ give him a belly bait of? Good GAWD that guy loves to see his words in type.

All I can add is to reiterate that besides gear ratios, there's fit and finish. The best one of those, IMO is either the standard A833, or the A833 OD. Both will bolt slam in with factory parts and require cutting nothing. From there, you'll be cutting and fabbing. I'm getting ready to install a Ford world class T5 in Vixen, my 64 Valiant. I chose it for several reasons, and gear ratios was one, but I'll leave that out since that's how you asked. All of my other reasons are, it's plenty strong enough to hold up to a slant six, it's a VERY popular transmission, affordable and parts are readily available. Yes, it requires floor tunnel mods, but that's ok. I had Gill Welding make me a custom adapter plate that will bolt the T5 onto the original 64 slant six bellhousing, so that enables me to retain all of the stock clutch linkage and not have to fab anything other than the floor tunnel, floor tunnel hoop and cross member and also shorten a drive shaft. Easy peasy. There ARE stronger versions of the T5 if you decide to go that route. Oh one last thing I forgot. The T5 is a lot lighter than even the original A903 3 speed that's comin out. For whatever that's worth.
 
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