core 'revision' number...BS? BUSTED!!

Small Block Mopar Engine

  1. pishta

    pishta I know I'm right....

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    yeah, your probably right, one at a time. I think it was an OLD BMC foundry doing 1275 mini blocks 4 at a time.
     
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    • krazykuda

      krazykuda Well-Known Member FABO Gold Member How-To Section Editor

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      The coupla that they poured the blocks for my engine was literally two stories tall... They had to supply us 1400 - 1500 blocks per day to run our production schedule...
       
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      • krazykuda

        krazykuda Well-Known Member FABO Gold Member How-To Section Editor

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        Each core box used different cores from run to run... There were no dedicated cores for each box, they made the cores and assembled them in whatever box was available to be built...

        That's why each core has its own identity number... So they can track what cores make the parts if there are any problems...

        The cores are just hard compressed sand that they have to break out of the blocks after they are molded... They are literally disintegrated after each run...

        New cores are made with new sand for each run from each core cavity... The sand is put into the core cavity and a liquid is added to help the sand stick together before they compress it to make each sand core to use in the core boxes..
         
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        • toolmanmike

          toolmanmike Moderator Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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          Pretty fascinating stuff. I have been in Dan's pattern shop and it takes a special part of your brain to imagine what the part will look like when all you can see is what isn't cast iron.
           
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          • krazykuda

            krazykuda Well-Known Member FABO Gold Member How-To Section Editor

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            It is possible that if there are any left over parts from the May pilot build, they will be used for the start of production if they are off production tooling...

            Example: The foundry that casts the block is not going to just run 20 - 50 blocks just for that run... They will run a few hundred or more to put their tooling to the test for production...

            Then the engine assembly plant is going to need many parts to test their processes... They need to run them through each station on the block machine line to prove out the tooling for machining them... And the engine assembly line is going to need parts to test out their tooling and fill the line for launch... This could easily take a few thousand blocks....

            They are not going to wait until the week the build is due to order the parts, they are going to get a jump on it and have a stock of parts on hand to start the launch... They could easily make a few thousand blocks in April - May to get ready to launch in June....
             
            Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
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            • krazykuda

              krazykuda Well-Known Member FABO Gold Member How-To Section Editor

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              Yes, the cores are the negative of the part, or in other words - "the holes"....
               
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              • krazykuda

                krazykuda Well-Known Member FABO Gold Member How-To Section Editor

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                Don't forget the engine group will also order bare engines and put them on dynos to test them before launch...

                I used to pre build blocks for the new changes that were coming up... We would run them through the machine line on weekends when production wasn't running for the new changes, then finish them on the rest of the machine line that was the same as production on Monday...

                Then I would quarantine the blocks until I could run them down the engine line and track them.. I would send the completed engines to the block design engineer so he could dyno test some, have a few put into development test cars, and a few more to test at the proving grounds...

                This was done to prove that the parts and processes were ready for production...
                 
                Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
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                • RustyRatRod

                  RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                  Thanks Karl. I knew you'd have somethin constructive to add. Hope yall had a good Thanksgiving.
                   
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                  • my68barracuda

                    my68barracuda Well-Known Member

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                    I had visited the Chrysler foundry in Indianapolis several times, V8 blocks would be cast 2 at a time.
                    And I have 30+ years experience at the IH / Navistar foundry in Indy. Concerning the numbers seen on the outside of the casting close to the part number, those are Pattern numbers. Patterns 1 & 2 would run together, patterns 3 & 4 would run together and so forth.
                    Concerning why one would see a pattern 4 with an early cast date. It is because when launching a new engine the foundry would would require that more than one set of tooling be available. That is so Patterns 1 & 2 could be in production use for a day or two, then they would be returned to the Pattern shop for routine maintenance and Patterns 3 & 4 would be in use for a day or two, typically two sets of patterns are rotated, as they wear beyond normal repair, patterns 5 & 6 and 7 & 8 would be brought in.
                    Concerning dimensional improvements, I would not say that later ( higher) numbered patterns are better than earlier ( lower ) patterns. Break through improvements in dimensional accuracy are more closely related to improvements in the core making process and in how the cores are processed and are assembled into a complete package. It is the unusual case when a single engine remains in production long enough for it to be re tooled with completely different core making processes. The slant six is one that comes to mind. The slants up to the late 60’s were oil sand cored, after that they were hot box, the final series in the 80’s were cold box. Those charges tie closely to the 3 distinct slant six cylinder head varieties.
                    The core boxes are similar to patterns, in that they are also identified with numbers. The lower numbers are early the higher numbers are later, with multiple numbers ( core boxes) being in production at any point in time to allow for repair and maintenance.
                     
                    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
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                    • krazykuda

                      krazykuda Well-Known Member FABO Gold Member How-To Section Editor

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                      Thanks Rob...

                      I hope your Thanksgiving was good also.... Say "Hi" to Kitty and the kitties for me....
                       
                    • Ironracer

                      Ironracer Gearhead

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                      Are you Sure, you haven't been to my part of FL? Cause the last few sentences, seem really familiar, as in some of my thoughts many years ago, about many things, that unfortunately, due to current events, are resurfacing again, many times over
                       
                      Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
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                      • gdrill

                        gdrill If you drink, think, before you type...... FABO Gold Member

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                        Not sure if I missed it, but I kinda thought that different numbers during casting would allow easier tracking down on blocks that had imperfections. 1 vs 2. 2 being fine but 1 having issues it would be a simple find.
                         
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                        • krazykuda

                          krazykuda Well-Known Member FABO Gold Member How-To Section Editor

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                          Yeah, they could have made ours two at a time also, it's been a long time since I went for my visits there...
                           
                        • my68barracuda

                          my68barracuda Well-Known Member

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                          Yes, that is why the patterns have numbers. To be able to track differences and changes.
                           
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                          • pishta

                            pishta I know I'm right....

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                            Yeah, Windsor blocks were 2 at a time too....so @my68barracuda do the suffix numbers mean ANYTHING as related to quality? That's the base of my theory. It sounds like a -1 and a -8 (-15) are going to be dimensionally the same? So this last number is meaningless in regards to block worth...? I think so. I posted 2 340s made 1 day apart and the latter one had a lower number. Thanks for your input!

                             
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                            • toolmanmike

                              toolmanmike Moderator Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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                              In a perfect world all the blocks should be the same but those molds and cores were hand made back then. Nowdays they are made/machined on concrete Milla and all the components are close to perfect. But still. If a little material needs to be added here or there a slight revision is done by hand. Now, that being said, all the components may be interchangable but a certain combination of those parts may produce a slightly better piece. Core shift could happen to any core box or any mold or any combination of components.
                               
                            • my68barracuda

                              my68barracuda Well-Known Member

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                              Concerning how two 340 blocks made a day apart with the latter having a lower number. The mold sets 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 could both be ran the same day. Perhaps they started running 3 & 4 in the morning, but a problem developed during the run so that pattern set was taken out and patterns 1 & 2 were set in. To keep productivity high, pattern changes could made in the matter of minutes. Basically any pattern set that was available could have been ran on any day.
                              Concerning pattern numbers and dimensional quality. Whether it is pattern 1 or pattern 26, typically the quality level will be very similar. Foundry tooling is typically very expensive, to maintain the interchangeability of that tooling, it usually is all made the same way.
                              Changes in tooling singificant enough to impact casting quality are typically introduced at the same time part design changes are introduced. Then the part number also changes. Again using slant six heads as an example. Drool tube heads have a part number, peanut heads have a different part number, hydraulic heads have a different part number. These three heads each have different foundry core processes, but are basically interchangeable and each set has their own part number.
                               
                              Last edited: Nov 26, 2021
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                              • my68barracuda

                                my68barracuda Well-Known Member

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                                Back on part numbers, and using slant six blocks as an example, there are several block part numbers and with the exception of the steel vs cast crank difference, all of the blocks are interchangeable. Those part numbers were introduced sequentially and all part numbers were not all produced at the same time, hence I think there were some minor feature changes but the big change was in how the cores-casting was produced.
                                Back on the 340 block and heads, does anyone know are there multiple block and head part numbers? And if there are, were the various part numbers all in production at the same time or were they in production sequentially.
                                If there are multiple part numbers for a similar, interchangeable part and if the part numbers were not all in production at the same time, I would expect the later castings to have been made with processes that are more robust against defects.
                                 
                                Last edited: Nov 26, 2021
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                                • pishta

                                  pishta I know I'm right....

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                                  Thank you! Ill close this chapter with BUSTED!
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                                • Rat Bastid

                                  Rat Bastid .004 light

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                                  • jos51700

                                    jos51700 Green Bearing thread connoisseur

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                                    I've been hearing block and head casting fairy tales my whole life. Only your sonic checker knows for sure.
                                     
                                  • Krooser

                                    Krooser Building Chinese Free Engines since 1959...

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                                    That - number is simply to identify how many pours were mede in a single mold. As the old deteriorates they can identify the cores that are likely bad and send them to the scrap pile to be remelted and reused.

                                    I have two sons who have foundry experience.
                                     
                                  • my68barracuda

                                    my68barracuda Well-Known Member

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                                    If you have son’s with foundry experience, perhaps you should run what you wrote by them. As it makes absolutely zero sense.
                                    The sand cores used in gray iron green sand casting, used in producing the 340 v8 blocks that are under discussion here are one time use only. The single digit numbers under discussion, the numbers on the outside of the casting are Pattern Numbers.
                                     
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                                    • Krooser

                                      Krooser Building Chinese Free Engines since 1959...

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                                      I should have said pattern numbers...thanks for clearing the air.
                                      Y
                                       
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