Correct initial timing?

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71DodgeDemon340

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Hey everyone and trailbeast lol.
Upon looking up some info in my motors manual I happened to see that the timing spec on a 68 340 is at tdc and 69-72 is 5 degrees btdc. Im running 15 degrees of initial timing and car runs fine. Is there a reason why the factory timing is so low?
Although different the 351 in my bronco is at 11 degrees btdc so 5 seems low to me.
 
They did that because they had real gas back then and also to try to get better emission numbers.....The stuff they call gas today is crap......You are good at 15 BTDC....mopars love as much timing as you can give them without pinging or starter kickback.....they just run better...I run 19 initial 38 total on mine
 
If it is a stock dist with vac advance they put a lot of timing in with the vac advance.Look at the total with the vac hooked up and see what it is running 15 degrees initial
 
are you running a factory cam or an up grade maybe 218-220 @50 ?
 
Upgraded cam lunati voodoo.
Running no vac advance.

In not having any issues and trailbeasts distributors are made to be around 14-16 degrees of initial. I was just curious why the the spec was so low
 
Just make sure you check the total timing to make sure it isn't over 38
 
Sounds to me like you are right in there where you should be.
I usually hesitate to tell anyone what their timing should be due to all the possible differences in motor combo's, fuel and elevation.
I run 20 initial, 36 with mechanical all in by 2,500 and a grand total of about 52 with vacuum in at light cruise.
That vac advance can make a huge difference in fuel economy when adjusted well.
This is at an average 5,000 feet elevation.

Engine specs are:
9.5:1 comp
214/244 cam with .512 lift 110 LSA
Hydraulic rollers
EQ closed chamber heads with 1.92 valves
42RH trans with 2.73 rear gears

2,100 rpm at 90 mph getting 25mpg on the hiway with 87 fuel.
 
I trusted you 100% trail beast. Just was curious why it was that way. I cant believe the 68 says at tdc lol that goes against everything ive ever learned on timing
 
If you are driving this on the street, you will benefit greatly from a vacuum advance.
 
I cant believe the 68 says at tdc lol that goes against everything ive ever learned on timing
Well you've been given the correct reasons above. The Chrysler engineers knew exactly what they were doing, its just not appropriate for your hot rodded engine and set up.

How so? Not worried about mpg lol. Its a 4 speed so i cruise at about 2-3k
It's about molecule distance and speed of combustion to build peak pressure so it provides the best force to leverage the crank. The molecules are further apart when fuel-air density is low; and that's the way it is at at low throttle, low load.
 
How so? Not worried about mpg lol. Its a 4 speed so i cruise at about 2-3k

I was running without vacuum advance when I first put the new motor in.
When I got my vacuum advance all set up I could actually feel that it took less throttle to cruise at the same speeds.
That's also when my mileage increased.
 
A properly tuned vacuum advance will make an engine so much more pleasant to drive and accelerate because the timing curve is more in tune what the engine really wants.
But ofcourse if you "don't care" for the beter MPG that might result of this, you can always easily compensate for that by pressing down the throttle more and often...


Myself I'm running at 10° BTDC initial, but the vacuum advance pulls it up to 24°, which is exactly where the engine makes most vacuum when idling in Drive.
 
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Then don't run it. I couldn't care less. It's not my car.
Rusty i wasnt being a smart a55. I thought vacuum advanced was mainly for mpg, sorry if i came off a little brash. I value your opinion on the matter and appreciate everyone providing me with some good info

:thumbsup:
 
Any thoughts about locked-out (full advance) on a street/strip car?

My 451 with a big (272@.050) cam doesn't want to idle without lots of extra air (such as disconnecting the PCV hose) even at 24 initial. But it idles much better at 34, which is basically locked timing.
 
Any thoughts about locked-out (full advance) on a street/strip car?

My 451 with a big (272@.050) cam doesn't want to idle without lots of extra air (such as disconnecting the PCV hose) even at 24 initial. But it idles much better at 34, which is basically locked timing.

Different animal entirely, and not expected to get good economy with a cam like that.
Basically it's design is for WOT from the get go, and not to cruise around with.
 
Any thoughts about locked-out (full advance) on a street/strip car?

My 451 with a big (272@.050) cam doesn't want to idle without lots of extra air (such as disconnecting the PCV hose) even at 24 initial. But it idles much better at 34, which is basically locked timing.
Good grief Charlie Brown. Post a video of this beast idling.
 
Agreed, but I don't want to be overheating or changing plugs on every cruise, either... Economy I'm not worried about (much). ;)
 
Agreed, but I don't want to be overheating or changing plugs on every cruise, either... Economy I'm not worried about (much). ;)
The locked timing should not be causing either of those problems. Its the retarded timing that gets things hotter than they should. The probem with locked timing at 34 will be starting. Whether your situation needs locked I can't say. Poke around on Speedtalk, racingfuelsystems, and motorsportvillage forums to find examples of when locked is advised.

Regarding the air needed at idle. An engine in neutral has only friction to overcome. They can be run very lean, and lean likes timing advanced as much as advanced timing likes lean. :) Unfortunately, need a bit more power to keep it running with any additional load at all. So with an automatic, set the idle timing and carb for best power in gear. With a clutch, its a little trickier since it can't be messed with in gear but concept still applies.

At the same time its very important that the throttle relationship to the transfer slot is correct at idle. For an older Holley, that's .020-.040" showing beneath the throttle blade. Some of the newer carbs, .040 is probably too much because the slots are longer or wider than the older Holleys. Anyway, if you find you've had to open the throttles more (using the idle speed screw), then find a way to let more air in so the throttles can be turned back down. Old school method was drill small holes in the throttle plates near the idle port. Some trick ways include the 'idle eze' which you can make yourself if you like. The throttle plate method has an advantage of bringing in the extra air near where the fuel is coming.

PS. You may not be done after getting the throttle position lower (assuming thats needed). I've found sometimes there is then a flat spot driving as throttle is increased. If so then richen up the idle and transition by sticking some wires in the idle air bleeds or changing them to smaller ones. Wires are just easy way to test. Make them long enough to hook over the choke tower (if there is one) and go under the aircleaner gasket. That way they can't get loose.
 
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Later timing also makes stick-cars with 3.55s, less jumpy, at or below idle speed.By lighting the fire a lil later the peak pressure in the chamber occurs a lil later with the piston already well on it's way down. This smoooothes the power delivery to the crank, and makes the engine a lil lazier to respond to throttle inputs.This makes it possible to run the engine down below idle speed with those hi-way gears, and allow you to perhaps parade the car with 3.55s instead of a much bigger gear. Comfortable walking speed is about 3.5 mph. Just try to drive your 3.55 stick down there. This is 410rpm; it ain't gonna happen.About the lowest my 360 230* cam engine will go before the vacuum is so low that the PV starts messing up, is 500rpm. With 3.55s and a 3.09 low, this is 3.66mph.
At 14* timing @500rpm,the car starts to buck like an old '80s Mustang. At 6* it still ain't smooth enough, so I took the CFII disc out and put in a nice Factory 340 disc.With the softer sprung hub,the reduced timing, and a big fat flywheel, things settled down enough to make it a doable thing, and I sold the 4.30s.
When my car was all shiny and new, parading was the thing to do. Not so much any more. Now I just do it cuz I can,lol. 3.66mph is still kindof a power-walk.
The power-timing window is very small. With iron heads it usually falls between 32 to 38 degrees. With top grade gas,and a well engineered chamber it may fall in a slightly tighter window of 34 to 36 degrees.
But the idle timing and rate of advance can be just about anything. With an automatic and a 2200 type stall, you can run a lot. But when it is just 1 degree too much, stuff makes noises and eventually breaks, so keep the engine quiet. Better it is to be even 5* retarded than to be 1* too advanced.
As to the vacuum advance, that baby is a gem.Yeah sure you can use it to good advantage in extracting every last bit of energy from a lean mixture and drive fuel economy to the max.
But there are other advantages. Remember that this device is almost in lock-step with manifold vacuum. And remember that leaner mixtures are possible when you start the fire early. Not only possible but the leaner mixtures demand the fire to be lit earlier.And the leaner mixtures are often where the torque is at,with these low throttle/high manifold vacuum settings. The lean mixture/early fire, seems to smooth the engine in low-speed, low-load applications such as cruising above about 1800 to around 3200. When I say cruising, I'm not meaning steady-state speed but rather just tooling around in traffic. This is where the engine could be wanting 40 to 50 or more degrees of advance, and there is just no way to get it without the Vcan. The engine will develop more footpounds with the extra timing, allowing you to reduce the throttle opening, and that means, you guessed it, less fuel being dumped into the intake.So here you have a double whammy; more torque on less fuel. What's not to like about that? And remember where a streeter spends the bulk of it's life; hyup, tooling around!
IMO, if you are not running a Vcan on your streeter with a typical street cam, you are either; unaware of the advantages,not talented enough to pull it off, or just don't care enough to pursue it...... I used to say; ignorant, stupid or just don't give a liquidfart. But that's just plain mean, and nobody like a meanie;and I prefer to be liked.
So now, you can no longer claim unawareness, and the talent you can learn.As to caring enough to pursue it, I guess we'll see.
BTW;
The window of operation of the Vcan is pretty narrow.I suggest you put a vacuum gauge on the spark-port and check it out while driving. You will see that from idle to well above,that port remains pretty silent. Then it begins to build vacuum and eventually catches up to manifold vacuum. Then it runs lock-step with manifold vacuum for a while, before starting to drop out. By the time the primaries are open enough to engage the secondaries, the spark-port vacuum should be dropping quite fast, perhaps already dropped right out. What I'm saying is that this spark port vacuum might only be working from about 20%primary throttle to a bit over 50/60% primary throttle, AND it may be highest over a very very narrow window of say 25/30% to 35/40% I'm being purposefully vague, cuz I've never actually measured the throttle opening. But since the spark-port is physically fixed in the throttle-bore, the amount of vacuum measured at the port is always related to where the throttle blade is in relation to it, can never exceed manifold vacuum,always reads highest when manifold vacuum is highest, runs lock-step for a bit and then joins the manifold vacuum in its declining stage, but dropping out faster.
So now, it's up to you to take advantage of this knowledge, and give the engine what it craves, when it is craving. If you start with too much idle timing you may limit the amount of Vcan timing possible. If you don't start with enough idle-timing, you may never reach the optimum timing. Therefore it follows that if you really want to find the optimum cruise timings, you need to start with an optimum idle-timing and rate of advance. To try and help you find that optimum idle-timing, you need to sync the transfer port. I believe this was already mentioned. You can check out the Holley website, or click on my signature down at the bottom of this post.
Do not be overcome if you see the cruise timing start to climb above 40 or even 50 degrees. And as you start leaning the cruise circuit out, you may revisit the vcan and find that it wants even more. Eventually you may find the total timing at a cruise speed of say 60 mph, wanting to be close to 60degrees. In all likely hood your dizzy won't go there. That doesn't mean the engine won't be happier with 60* But most will only go to 36 in the mechanical plus 24 max in the can for a total of 60*. But seldom does this happen simultaneously . More typical is 28* mechanical at 2800 rpm plus 24 in the can =52*; this being about 65 with 3.55s . But if you're running 3.91s and 65mph is 3200 rpm then it is possible that everything is all in and then that would total in the neighborhood of 60*. It's never enough until it is too much. Don't let it be too much, cuz stuff breaks.It's always better to be a little short on timing than a little too much!
 
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