Sounds like simple politics. Not sure this is the appropriate place for that.
Dentist
- Thread starter Dan the man
- Start date
-
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
The salaries I listed were posted in the average dentist salaries. I have no idea how old the information is. But I did double check and it's at the top for the fastest growing in annual salary increase and no unemployment
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
Just trying to keep you out of trouble. Dan likes to throw out raw meat and see who comes to feed in a lot of the threads he starts.
Steve welder
Well-Known Member
And I'm telling you its not accurate. As for fastest growing in annual salary unless a dentist is employed by a company/ state/federal government most of them working as associates make money on the amount of income they generate for the practice. In other words they make money as per the number of patients that they see
Either way again I have no idea what your point is other than its expensive to get dental work done
Dental school is on par with medical school as far as costs, unless you come from a ultra rich family you take out loans for the entire amount plus money to live on
The costs to set up a modest sized office, the equipment alone are in the hundreds of thousands when you add up all the costs.
Do the math, graduate college at 21, start school for your doctorate another 4 years than a residency, now go and look to go to work. Find a practice looking for another dentist
If you graduate next year your half a million in debt, once your done and working you have to pay back that loan plus you have to live somewhere and pay bills like everyone else. If everything falls in place your 40 before you see light of day.
The problem is as I see it is the lack of insurance coverage that covers dental costs. The insurance companies are unwilling to offer any type of dental coverage as they know because of just a few factors I listed, the fee's that dentist have to charge to stay in the black are higher than say a trip to a internist
And than of course just like medical doctors there is required continuing education which is mandatory, its not for free either, you could add pro bono work into that as some dentists will do that for people.
Your working in peoples mouth with sharp instruments, think of HIV. Speaking of that ask any dentist who did a residency or when seeing patients in the last year of dental school about some of the people that had to work on.
Drug addicted/ HIV positive.....Thanks but no thanks I'll stick to welding
I've found that doctors and dentists alike will back off prices a lot of they know it's comin outta your pocket.
Steve welder
Well-Known Member
On the other hand dentists are like anything else, some are lousy some are great some are honest and some are a step above thieves.....Its called human nature and its up to you to find a good dentist who does good work and is honest and work with patients
I had a fixed bridge fall off, it wasn't new and had been on for sometime....I went to a dentist I knew. I gave him the bridge, he blew it off, blew off and wired with gauze the teeth that it was being attached to and glued it back on
Total time in the chair was max 5 minutes, I was charged 235.... now this was maybe 5 years ago. Some dentists would charge you zero dollars if it was their bridge, think of it as the cost of doing business and some would charge you a hundred but this guy was taking advantage and I knew why.....I let the office manager know that they were ******* me royally and as seeing my entire family went to him I was pissed off
So dont think I do not know the other side as I do......Find a good one and you wont have a problem
I had a fixed bridge fall off, it wasn't new and had been on for sometime....I went to a dentist I knew. I gave him the bridge, he blew it off, blew off and wired with gauze the teeth that it was being attached to and glued it back on
Total time in the chair was max 5 minutes, I was charged 235.... now this was maybe 5 years ago. Some dentists would charge you zero dollars if it was their bridge, think of it as the cost of doing business and some would charge you a hundred but this guy was taking advantage and I knew why.....I let the office manager know that they were ******* me royally and as seeing my entire family went to him I was pissed off
So dont think I do not know the other side as I do......Find a good one and you wont have a problem
I had a really good dentist before I moved, he would always give me a break whenever I was paying out if my own pocket. He's also a fellow car guy and racer.
450k in schooling, 325k practice (bought a small office), building was 650k and staff salaries are about 25% of overhead.
Bought my practice August 5 2022 (couple months ago) and I have yet to take a paycheck.
It is 8 years (4 years undergraduate plus 4 years in dental school). My loans are 450k on my schooling, graduated last year.
Just posted above what I paid between this year and last.
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
There's a dental hygienist in our family, she said that there's great money in the dentist industry. She said that it's costly to get established but once you get your practice going
What do you think that your yearly income will be?
Haha thanks. Posted some insight to the schooling and loans costs.
Regarding insurance most people think it’s insurance when in reality it is a dental benefit plan or easier to understand a dental coupon. I sign up as a participating dental provider for an insurance and then discount my fees heavily and then insurance pays 25-50- or if you’re lucky 80% of the cost of that discounted fee, the patient is responsible for the remainder of the discounted fee.
Dental insurance hasn’t changed in 50 years, they don’t cover any more than they did in the 80’s. They keep reducing what they will pay for procedures to dentists and will deny claims left and right.
I have to fight insurances daily to get reimbursed for so many procedures. They will add little clauses that deny coverage for like posted above “cosmetics” even if it is to replace teeth and then will tell the dr and patient they can do an alternative removable denture instead. They have clauses that are called “missing tooth clauses” meaning if you had a missing tooth before getting that insurance they will not pay to replace it.
So many little games they play.
I could go on all day but it’s on deaf ears. People want to buy sweet car parts on 2nd, 3rd and 4th race cars but don’t value their teeth. They’re teeth that give them the quality of life to eat lol. Had a pt the other day pulled like 4 teeth instead of saving them because of price then proceeded to show me her husbands Chevy nova race car and told me all about how they just shipped the race engine to be rebuilt by a builder in Tennessee… We are in Missouri.
I have this sweet machine that allows me to make crowns in my office. So you leave the same day with the crown. My fees are also significantly less than the area, but I will be increasing them at the beginning of 2023.
I don’t even know where to start. As a practicing dentist for 35 years, I have seen many people who have similar experiences as you have voiced. First thing that must be addressed is that the insurance company is not the dentist. If the treatment you want and need is not covered, that is your problem. The insurance companies usually only pay for the least expensive alternative treatments. Thus if you want something better, they may not pay. That is not the dentist’s fault or problem. As to the costs involved, remember that it takes 8 years of college. Most dentists graduate with well over $700,000 debt. And they did not work during the 8 years. Take your salary away from you for 8 years straight, go ahead and do the math. Then add up all your expenses for 8 years. Most likely you will have a very big debt to pay. Now, without any income you have to start up a practice. Equipment alone is $5-800,000. And you are renting space. Add the building cost if you buy it.
So, you now are saddled with $1,500,000 debt. Salaries of employees and expenses run better than 75%. So that $300 extraction nets the dentist, $75. How many of those does it take to pay off your debt? You get my point.
Medicare reimbursement rates are atrocious and the certifications required are not only time consuming but completely burdensome with bureaucratic nonsense. I would rather donate my time and deliver free dentistry than do the paperwork for Medicare. Fwiw, I do about $25-30 thousand dollars of donated dental services each year. I choose who I give it to.
The fees quoted above are reasonable for most dental offices. Also, just to bring a patient into the office, someone needs to be on the phone for 30 minutes or so verifying insurance benefits. Then trying to collect from the insurance companies is another tall order. They will deny claims even after a prior authorization has been submitted. Then the lack of trust comes between the patient and the dental practice when it should be between the patient and the insurance companies.
So, you now are saddled with $1,500,000 debt. Salaries of employees and expenses run better than 75%. So that $300 extraction nets the dentist, $75. How many of those does it take to pay off your debt? You get my point.
Medicare reimbursement rates are atrocious and the certifications required are not only time consuming but completely burdensome with bureaucratic nonsense. I would rather donate my time and deliver free dentistry than do the paperwork for Medicare. Fwiw, I do about $25-30 thousand dollars of donated dental services each year. I choose who I give it to.
The fees quoted above are reasonable for most dental offices. Also, just to bring a patient into the office, someone needs to be on the phone for 30 minutes or so verifying insurance benefits. Then trying to collect from the insurance companies is another tall order. They will deny claims even after a prior authorization has been submitted. Then the lack of trust comes between the patient and the dental practice when it should be between the patient and the insurance companies.
Last edited:
Before taxes or after? Before paying my 5k a month student loan bill for 10 years? Before or after paying the fixed expenses of my practice?
That’s a loaded question but I am satisfied with my potential income.
Also I offer cash discount, veteran discount, and elderly discount. I also see Medicare pts and help them increase their benefits from the 1-2k to 3500-4k.
I have been a Cerec mentor for 12 years. It is great.
So much misinformation out there for us to battle.
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
I'd probably spread those loan payments. We have a dental hygienist in the family and she said that once your practice is established your on your way to the big money as dental work has just a biggest mark up as the rest of the medical field
mopar head
Well-Known Member
Is that a requirement or just a choice to further your education?
I love my hygienists. They do great work for our patients. They assist me in so many ways that I cannot thank them enough. However, they do not know anything about what the costs are of running a practice. For example, let's say they earn $45 per hour and see one patient per hour. The insurance companies may only reimburse you for a cleaning at $45. You also then may get $30 for an exam but that takes the dentist time as well. Now you have to figure in that the front office had to schedule the patient, reschedule one quarter of all patients. Then they have to do the billing, verify benefits (10-15 minutes), reschedule them for their next recare visit. Then the dentist has to pay for all the supplies that go into the appointment, $20 or more. Then the instruments need to be cleaned, sterilized, bagged and put away. Of course the instruments break and need replacing. Then the building needs to be maintained and updated so that it does not look unkept. Then beneifts are paid, vacation, sick, PTO etc. Ask the hygienist how much it costs to provide the care for one patient per hour. They would not have any idea. Only that the dentist is making lots of money in their mind. When I try to explain this to them they say, almost verbatim, "that is why we are hygienists, so we don't have to worry about those things".
Which is exactly my point. If a hygienist does not know what it costs to run a dental practice, how do I explain it to those who are not in the business and only see the time they are aware of, not the time that it actually took to get the job done.
It is much like painting a car. It only took a couple hours to paint it so why did it cost $15,000. You forgot that it took months to prepare the car and great expertise and training to learn how to do it. As well as the material costs and the equipment to do so. That is what dentistry is like.
That is what it takes to be a dentist. A requirement. You can do a residency after you become a dentist to learn more skills or you can go on to specialize in limited fields like Oral surgery, Orthodontics, etc.
mopar head
Well-Known Member
Sounds scammy to me if your required to study things that have zero to do with Dentistry?
Found this.
Unlike other undergraduate models, degrees in law and medicine are not offered at the undergraduate level in the US. Instead, they are completed as professional study after receiving a bachelor’s degree. Neither law nor medical schools require or prefer a specific undergraduate major, although medical schools do have set prerequisite courses that must be taken before enrollment. Undergraduate students who are preparing to attend medical school following their undergraduate careers are known as pre-med.
Give the dentists their dues, just think of some of the sewer holes they have to work on.
I bet it's worth every penny.
I bet it's worth every penny.
There are pre-requisites that are required that take up at least 3 years of study, undergraduate. You also have to gain enough knowledge to perform well enough on the Dental School Aptitude Test. This is what is needed to get into dental school. Dental school is not a technical school. they require a well rounded education. If you had a dentist who could not understand Chemistry, biology or physics, How could they treat the medically compromised patients. You have to know more about biology, physiology and anatomy than about how to shape a tooth. You learn that in basic form in high school. Then the curriculum is advanced in undergraduate. And finally the knowledge is solidified in graduate school.
If on the other hand, you are studying Macrame, or basket weaving in college just to get a degree, you would then have to pass the Walmart background check to get your career going.
Steve welder
Well-Known Member
I dont know of any medical or dental school anyone could get into without a degree in the sciences
Four years college and taking the D cats and four years of dental school at which point providing you make the grade you get a doctorate in dental medicine
Dentists are doctors, they treat a specific part of your body.....A dentist with a DMD trains on the entire body, last I looked your head is suppose to be attached to the rest of your body
Dentists can also be Board certified just like any other medical doctor and the two dentists here can correct me if im wrong, the boards are given pretty much the same way medical boards are given, tests and reviews questions by there peers
All dentists are licensed by the state dental board. Before being able to get licensed by the board you have to pass dental school, then take 2 national boards tests, one test on the 4 years of class room and clinic material then the 2nd test is a clinical competency test. The clinical competency tests is comprised of 4 different types of procedures that you have to do on patients. You have to pass them all, if you fail one you have to pay to retake it.
Boards are 2500 for each test.
Firstly, Medicare does not pay for dental services unless you have a Medicare advantage plan. If you have one of them, then you have an insurance company that administers it. A dentist may or may not be in network for that plan. If, for example, Metlife is the administrator of the Medicare advantage plan and your dentist is in network with Metlife, then you have benefits for them. If on the other hand you have an HMO plan, then you must go to where the insurance company assigns you. Again, this is a choice that you make, not the dentist. The dentist is not specifically REFUSING Medicare plans. Find a plan that your dentist participates in and get the Medicare advantage plan that works with it. I participate in almost all PPO plans and the discount for the patients is substantial. If the patient has a Medicare advantage plan, great.
Here is an example of how unreasonable Medicare is with bureaucracy and requirements. I wanted to bill Medicare Medical for a Sleep Apnea appliance. In order to do that, They require you to use one of about 3 types of "approved" appliances. No other commonly used appliances will be paid. The lab cost for the appliance is $600. The reimbursement was only $800. It takes 2 appointments to make the appliance, then you have to titrate the appliance with several more visits. All told on average 5-6 visits for $200 minus the cost of impression materials and labor to clean, setup and clean again the rooms every time and other dental supplies. It is simply not worth the hassle.
The decision to participate in a PPO plan is another whole story. Cigna has increased reimbursements a total of 2%
over the last 4-5 years. What do you know that has not gone up that much every 6 months
-
