early a master cylinder swap

Brakes for your Classic Mopar

  1. valiant 1954

    valiant 1954 Active Member

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    Hi all ! has anyone ''DONE'' this and knows it to work on a 66 valiant .1st ''FRUIT JAR ''master cylinder .no power 9 inch brakes .''WILL'' a 67 dual master cylinder work . no power drum brakes front .both have 1 inch bore ,and i have a combo valve off a duster with drums all around .SO ,the only thing i can find different is the 67 comes WITHOUT the brake pedal rod ,so next question ,can i remove the 66 ''fruit jar '' rod and use it in the 67 cylinder and mount it to my 66 ,also both are 4 bolt cylinders . both have 1 inch bore ..mathematically it seems to work ? .I KNOW ,change to disc ,BUT i just wanna drive it first and the parts are not expensive .i just wanna be safe ,dont trust the 'FRUIT JAR '' even though all the cylinders,lines , and hoses are new ,just want to up grade to the dual cylinders .ANY TAKERS ON THIS thank you :prayer:
     
  2. nm9stheham

    nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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    I did exactly this on my '62 Dart with 10"x2.5" drums. (It's a 1st year B body, but the brake hydraulics don't change.) The original single reservoir MC was 1" and I put in a 1" dual reservoir MC for a '67 Coronet. Works as it should; has the old stadard heavy brake feel of the older manual brake cars. The brake pedal rod pulled out of the single and went right in to the dual and was the right length.

    I made the change for exactly the same reason; I drove single MC's when young but this car is very nice and I'll take that as the one non-original piece on the car to add some safety margin.
     
  3. valiant 1954

    valiant 1954 Active Member

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    thank you so much for the info .its always good to hear things that work ,not what should work .ill get the cylinder today .did you use a combo valve ?was just thinking if something did leak .theres use to be a short wall in between the front and rear of the master cylinder? would that keep enough capacity of fluid to the front or rear depending on the leak ?i guess im asking should i plumb in the combo valve or run the lines direct front port to fronts and rear line to the rear ? i haven't restored or upgraded on this type of system before ,always just converted to disc .im sorry that i have to ask this question. BUT for 1 i just wanna be safe ,[use the valve] and 2 do it right ? [does the system need it or is the master cylinder designed to handle/ have the capacity for the leak ? THANK YOU once again! now after over a year and some set backs i can drive my car before i decide if i really wanna do a ''GASSER'' build on it .its members like you and all the fabo family, that makes working on these cars simple instead of tolerable.
     
  4. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, the 67 A-body was a carryover year...so yes, should bolt right in. (You need new brake lines, of course, but you know that.)
     
  5. nm9stheham

    nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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    No I did not use a combo valve. I got a new distribution block from Inline Tube in MI to accomodate the separate front and rear splits. For this early system, run front to fronts and rear to rear separately; there is no proportioning valve for this conversion. They have one listed as made for the conversion along with the 2 new tubes from MC to distribution block, but in reality, it is probably the same as a later dual MC distribution block for something like a Coronet. My car is an early B body so you should research the distribution block for the A to be sure you get the right part; Inline Tube has a website and catalog.

    A dual MC typically does not have 'wall' between front and rear sections but there is separate fuid chamber for F and R pistons. When you push on the rod, you push directly on the front piston in the MC; that pushes fliud to the front brakes and also pushes fluid to also push on the rear piston in the MC.

    If one half of the system leaks, then there is hydraulic separation between the front chamber and rear chamber, so one section still keeps fluid. In my one time of a brake failure with a dual MC (front failure), I had a to push waaay down to get the 2 pistons to mecahnically contact each other and get the rear section to operate, but the 'good' half is still intact as a hydraulic system. And since you lose half of your brakes, you lose a LOT of stopping power.

    Here is a good illustration including what happens with front or rear failures. (Note that the failure illustrations show the F and R reveresed from what we have in these Mopars.)
    http://constructionmanuals.tpub.com/14273/img/14273_248_1.jpg
     
  6. valiant 1954

    valiant 1954 Active Member

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    thanks .cleared up another question for me . .got the new cylinders on back, rebuilt the fronts. and flushed the system .now with this answer ,its onto the master, and hopefully a ride. thanks all !
     
  7. krazykuda

    krazykuda Well-Known Member FABO Gold Member How-To Section Editor

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    Try calling the ram man. He can let you know what you need and hook you up. I bought my manual master cylinder for my 66 Valiant Wagaon that I'm converting to front Kelsey Hayes Disc brakes with a dual reservoir master cyl.

    You have to get the proper master cylinder as the drum only master cylinder does not have the fluid capacity to handle disc brakes. The ram man has one that will. He can also hook you up with a proportioning valve for your new system.

    7200 Winters St
    Fort Worth, TX 76120
    Telephone: 817.691.5996

    http://www.theramman.com/
     
  8. BillGrissom

    BillGrissom Well-Known Member

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    The "combo valve" from the 67 drum-drum car is just a "distribution block" with an "imbalance warning switch". You don't have a dash lamp for the later, but otherwise it will work fine.

    As many have, I simply used the distribution block in my 64 & 65 cars. I plugged the "rear" port" and installed a 1/4 to 3/16" inv flare adapter in the top port. I plumbed the "rear brakes" MC port (fwd port) to my existing rears tubing, using an in-line coupler. Search posts for Autozone PN's of the fittings needed.

    That MC will work fine if you later change to front disks, but you will need a proportioning valve on the rears tubing. An adjustable one is cheap on ebay ($30). With manual MC, you may prefer a smaller 15/16"D or 7/8"D bore MC for front discs. I use a modern aluminum MC w/ 2 to 4 bolt adapter plate ($30 ebay).
     
  9. nm9stheham

    nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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    BTW, with drums front and rear and the old single reservior MC, the F/R proportioning was changed by changing wheel cylinder bores. My '62 had the same sized drums front and rear, and the proportioning was done by having a slightly smaller rear wheel cylinder bore:1" up front and 15/16" in the rear.

    In your original post, I looks like you say that you have 1" wheel cylinders front and rear....is that right? (It is hard to tell from the text.) I just looked at the NAPA online site for your car and it shows 1" for the fronts for 9" brakes.... BUT 13/16" for the rears with 9" drums.... I think you had better recheck what you actually have in the rear and recheck applications. If you really have 1" for the rear then those look to be wrong. I can gurantee you the F/R proportioning will be way wrong if they are that far off.

    BTW, the same proportioning F/R will be preserved with the 1" bore dual MC versus the 1" single MC. So that part is not an issue; it is just your report on the size of your rear wheel cylinders that is of concern.
     
  10. valiant 1954

    valiant 1954 Active Member

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    GEES ,im sorry i didnt give you the info correct .but you were .1 inch wheel cylinders up front 15/16 wheel cylinder on the rear .1 inch bore on the master .you guys covered it all .now ill have to see if it will be easier to just plumb it or put the distribution [combo valve with block off & switch ?thanks all .as ralph cramdon would say ''YOUR THE GREATEST'' ! :finga::prayer: AND NO MORE OF :banghead:!
     
  11. valiant 1954

    valiant 1954 Active Member

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    13 /16 rears ..me and my sausage fingers !
     
  12. valiant 1954

    valiant 1954 Active Member

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    SORRY 13 /16 REARS ..:eek:ops::eek:ops:TALKING ABOUT REARS .WHAT LUGGS WILL BE ABOUT 1/2TO3/4 LONGER THAT WILL INSTALL ON MY AXLES .HAVE A big PROBLEM WITH GETTEING THE SHANK TO GRAB THE THREADS .IF THEY WERE LONGER I COULD DO THE OLD INSTALL 2-3 AND PULL THE WHEEL ONTO THEM .BUT BECAUSE MOST STORE DONT WANNA COMPARE PARTS ,DO ANY OF YOU HAVE A LISTING THAT WILL SOLVE MY OTHER PROBLEM THANKS !THEN LOOK OUT :burnout:
     
  13. nm9stheham

    nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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    Good on the 13/16" rears !
     
  14. valiant 1954

    valiant 1954 Active Member

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    THANK YOU ALL ,for the info ,went together very easily ! between 3 parts stores i found it all in stock ...napa for the hard to find cap to block off the dist.block ,and the adapters you need for the big to little ports and lines ..IM HAPPY ,because i have brakes !! .. got to drive the car a few times and enjoyed it ..even getting use to the HARD FEEL on the brakes .if you want better brakes ,your car is torn down ,and you have the cash and or ability to find the disc parts in your local yards ..go for it ! it will be a huge improvment over these .but as i stated before .i just wanna drive it before its torn apart again ..with all your help WE accomplished the task ,,and yes a bog smile when i finally got to drive my mopar !! THANK YOU ALL ..YOU SAVED ME TIME ,MONEY ,AND YOU KNEW WHAT WORKED !!! I COULDNT BE MORE THANKFUL !
     
  15. grumpuscreature

    grumpuscreature Resident Curmudgeon

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    Wish I had seen this before now. When you get tired of the rock hard brakes try a master cylinder for a '74 Charger with manual disc brakes. Put one on every Mopar I've owned since 1977. That's when I traded in my '74 Charger. The most recent swap was 2007 on a '66 Valiant and the master cylinder was 24 bucks at Advance Auto Parts.
     
  16. seabee

    seabee FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    I know this post is old, but can you clarify? Did you put a 2007 disc brake resevoir on a 66 drum Valiant? If so, was there any adapter plates, pedal assemblies, eyc? Thanks for your time.
     
  17. xLURKxDOGx

    xLURKxDOGx "An angel fat, at satan's feast"

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    I think he was saying that in 2007 was the last time he put a 74 Charger MC into a 66 Valiant.



    Jake
     
  18. BillGrissom

    BillGrissom Well-Known Member

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    seabee,
    Yes, you can use a newer aluminum MC. All are 2-bolt, so require a $30 adapter plate (ebay). Use one from an ABS car, since just 2 ports, and also pre-2000 before most changed to bubble-flare ports. I have an MC for a 95-99 Breeze ABS on all 3 60's Mopars. Many here use one for a late 80's Dodge truck.
     
  19. seabee

    seabee FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Thanks Bill,

    Is there an advantage to using the later MCs over say a 1967 dual MC on a drum brake car?
     
  20. BillGrissom

    BillGrissom Well-Known Member

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    I think even with the aluminum adapter plate ($30), a later 2-bolt aluminum MC comes out much lighter. It was probably also less expensive for me since I bought a spare new one on ebay for only $25, plus a $15 rebuild kit. Aluminum doesn't corrode as bad as cast iron, though in the east it still turns ugly. The plastic reservoirs are probably better since they better seal, you can see the level without removing the cap, and they come w/ a low-level switch.

    The latter, you can wire to gnd in parallel w/ another "low-side" switch. Ex., my 96 Voyager has 3 "grounding switches" which can turn on the brake light - reservoir level, e-brake, pressure imbalance. I forgot if my A's e-brake switch grounds. If not, you could have it light your oil pressure light, turn on the dome lights, or rig your own dash light.
     
  21. 64_Barracuda

    64_Barracuda Virginia Beach VA

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    Not sure what a fruit jar is but here are the brake mods I have done my my two cars.

    1965 Signet. Installed 76 Dodge Dart M/C with front disks (sliders) spindles lower control arms and the bigger upper A arms rear 10 inch shoes with the proportioning valve. 15 inch rims no grinding on calipers.

    1964 Barracuda. Installed 76 Dodge Dart front disks (sliders) spindles, lower ball joint, put a bushing in on the upper ball joint. KEPT the original master cylinder (maybe this is what you call a fruit jar? perfectly safe) Did not use proportioning valve as I kept the rear 9 inch brakes. 14 inch 5 1/2 rims spacers and grinding required on calipers. This car is all stock that is why I kept the 14inch rims.

    Both work great ask if you have any questions. If I were you though I would look at putting on disk brakes.

    I used the RAM MAN set up.
     
  22. Rapid Robert

    Rapid Robert Well-Known Member

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    The fruit jar MC, you'll recognize one when you see it!. My exp: 65 dart with 9" drums up front/9" drums in rear alum dual MC, everything new. was woefully inadequate adjusted correctly & even had the shoes arced to the drums. 2nd 65 dart with 74 A front discs (2.75" calipers) with aftermarket (ceramic?) pads and later 7&1/4 rear, not sure of the shoe width but it is 2" or wider & OE shoes, kept the OE drum splitter. stopped excellent, no excessive pad wear, definitely the way to go. never did figure out what was wrong on the 9" drum setup, went over everything just never felt like enough braking force was being put out to the 4 corners. On the 13/16 rear wheel cyls, some parts houses supercede you up to a larger dia cyl but on paper it says 13/16. bring a 6" steel scale with you & peel back a boot
     
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