Electrical Main Panel

clementine

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Helloooooo FABO!
(Asking for a friend, but Ill tell the story in the 1st person format:rolleyes:)

I am remodeling my basement into a mother in law situation. New framing and re plumbed the house with expansion type A PEX. I am on to the electric and am running a sub panel. In that transition I am swapping out the main panel to a more updated version. The panel coming out is 200 AMP. The panel going in is 200 AMP. The new panel gives me room to put in the new 100 AMP breaker for the sub panel. In this process I am planning on pulling the meter to cut power. I am driving in two 10' grounding rods as the plumbing is now pex and the old system utilized the galvanized pipes for the ground. I am isolating the grounds on the sub panel and will probably not drive in another ground rod for it, but utilize the main water pipe (updated to 1" copper). After switch is complete I will try to not have a power draw by having all breakers off. I will re insert meter and turn on breakers one by one. Yes I have wired stuff before that had to be inspected (new construction), but I havent done this scenario before.

What am I missing besides the clip the city puts on the meter? and am I looking for trouble when they find it missing? Maybe I can get one on Ebay? The meter is the fancy digital ones. would the city get a signal that Im messing around?

Be gentle now. Just a guy over here standing in water holding a lightning rod in a thunderstorm.

Thanks FABO!!!
 

4spdragtop

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YOU (not here anyway) can cut power to meter. That's a permit and a call to utility company.
*edit* double check the grounding to 1"copper service line. I could be wrong but I thought it was a "no-no"
 

clementine

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That's a permit and a call to utility company.
Yeah, but then they will want to look at everything else. Which could involve more permits...yada yada yada. I kind of just want to keep them out of it. I want to keep it safe, thats why I posted the MO. Do they cut power to the transformer? Disconnect the lines coming in off the pole to weatherhead? Or do they just pull the meter?
 

4spdragtop

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When I upgraded my panel, the contractor pulled the permit, and they cut power at the pole.
You may have something there.

That applies to me.

Yeah, but then they will want to look at everything else. Which could involve more permits...yada yada yada. I kind of just want to keep them out of it. I want to keep it safe, thats why I posted the MO. Do they cut power to the transformer? Disconnect the lines coming in off the pole to weatherhead? Or do they just pull the meter?
 

JDMopar

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If you're getting it inspected, the city/county inspector will notify the power company when you pass inspection, and they will probably send a service man out to look at it. He will put a new meter seal on for you. They shouldn't get a notification that you have the meter pulled out. If it's a new smart meter, the only time they would know it's out of the socket is if by coincidence they tried to read it from the office while you had it out. If it isn't getting power from the top lugs, they can't read it. The only other coincidence that would tell them the meter is off would be if the power was out to your whole neighborhood, and they just so happened to ping your particular meter to see if it was still out. Highly unlikely either will happen in the time it takes you to change out your main panel. Do that first, and worry about the sub panel after the main one is in and done. I could send you a meter seal, but it would piss your power company off worse to have one from Dook Energy on it than to not have one at all.....lol. Good luck.
 

Dana67Dart

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Just something to think about.

Unpermitted work might allow your insurance company to not pay a claim if the house burns down and they can point to anything that touches work you have done.

Also might be an issue if you decide to sell.

Buyer checks for permits, doesn't find any, not the work you did might have to be removed. Or at least the walls opened up to expose the work you did to get it permitted. A real pain.
 

clementine

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thanks guys! The dude isnt selling anytime soon and the next buyer will scrape it. That is the way of the land around here now.
 

autoxcuda

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Call your Electric company and tell them you're doing a panel upgrade and you are adding load. You're going 200A to 200A, but for more breaker space. ...sounds like you are overhead fed. It's a pretty rudimentary request for them.

Electric Company will cut your service wire at the pole OR disconnect at your weatherhead, safe end it, and tie it to roof. Pulling the meter still leaves part of the physical panel hot (meter clips, wire in weather head, etc)

Then you can do your upgrades to the panel and weather head. The size of the weatherhead and wire inside of it needs to meet current NEC code (wire size/type per pipe size) and utility company construction requirements. Utility companies publish their panel installation requirements and contacts. Like this random one from Seattle: https://web8.seattle.gov/city-light-engineering-standards/Home/GetPDF?libId=RESC&searchForfileName=RESC 2022 EDITION FINAL.pdf

When you're done, get a electrical panel city/county/AHJ permit clearance. Like said should be automatically sent to Utility Company (but check).

Then the Utility Company will connect your service wire up (replace or upgrade if necessary) , re-energize your panel, put a new lock ring seal on your meter and all is good.

If the utility company sees a new panel without a lock ring seal it will ask for an inspection. If not provided, it will cut your power until you get an inspection.

If you want to shorten your down time, put your new panel one stud over from the old panel. Get inspection on new panel, the utility company will move the overhead service wire to new panel, leave, and it will be up to you to move circuits over to the new panel to energize each one with the safety of the main breaker and circuit breaker (probably removed) to protect you. -This doesn't work for UG feeds very well though.

2022-06-11_22-31-07.jpg


2022-06-11_22-30-51.jpg
 
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Ironracer

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That's a Lil outta my league, I have a Mopar Brother that's a State EC I call when I get crazy stuff. I do know copper ain't supposed to contact metal ( electrolysis) and depending on your load requirements, 200 amp going in 100A is a Lil shady....imagine, for some reason, everything is running at the same time
 

CudaFish1968

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Helloooooo FABO!
(Asking for a friend, but Ill tell the story in the 1st person format:rolleyes:)

I am remodeling my basement into a mother in law situation. New framing and re plumbed the house with expansion type A PEX. I am on to the electric and am running a sub panel. In that transition I am swapping out the main panel to a more updated version. The panel coming out is 200 AMP. The panel going in is 200 AMP. The new panel gives me room to put in the new 100 AMP breaker for the sub panel. In this process I am planning on pulling the meter to cut power. I am driving in two 10' grounding rods as the plumbing is now pex and the old system utilized the galvanized pipes for the ground. I am isolating the grounds on the sub panel and will probably not drive in another ground rod for it, but utilize the main water pipe (updated to 1" copper). After switch is complete I will try to not have a power draw by having all breakers off. I will re insert meter and turn on breakers one by one. Yes I have wired stuff before that had to be inspected (new construction), but I havent done this scenario before.

What am I missing besides the clip the city puts on the meter? and am I looking for trouble when they find it missing? Maybe I can get one on Ebay? The meter is the fancy digital ones. would the city get a signal that Im messing around?

Be gentle now. Just a guy over here standing in water holding a lightning rod in a thunderstorm.

Thanks FABO!!!
I am a licensed electrical contractor in Tennessee. I do not know where "emerald city" is located.
If you break the power company seal here without their permission they will take you to court and prosecute you for theft of electricity. You cannot win.
Most power providers will let you do your own electrical work and let you pull a permit. I suggest you contact your power provider and find out their rules for doing your own electrical work, permitting process, and their local requirements, let me say that again Their local requirements. That is what will get you, their local requirements!
We can all win the game if we know the rules before hand.
2 8' ground rods 6' apart is the NEC requirement.
Depending on the meter system the provider uses they could see that the meter is removed, and shut down meter.
Most power providers do not have the high end meter systems. Most use basic meter system readings to report to master meter to report.
 

Treblig

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Are you asking about the clip that keeps people from messing with the meter. And you want to pull the meter without leaving a trace so you don't get in trouble? I know a way.
 

67Dart273

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We have wireless monitored gas and electric meters here nowadays. "They know", that is the meter "knows" if there is a break in service.

YOU CAN NOT WIN

As suggested, contact the power company and do it right.
 

MiradaMegaCab

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As CudaFish1968 said,

2 8' ground rods 6' apart is the NEC requirement. Using one continuous piece of #4 bare copper wire.

Depending on the meter system the provider uses they could see that the meter is removed, and shut down meter. Some “Smart Meters” have Tamper Detection in which case, removing the meter from the socket will throw an alert. If your power company does inquire, I’d simply say that you had an electrician here to replace a defective main breaker and he removed the meter for safety. It’s better than saying you did a panel upgrade and added a sub panel. When dealing with inspectors, the key word is “Existing”
 

H22A4

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Just curious what the $ value and time value is you will save by excluding the power utility and the county (permits)?
 

67Dart273

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As CudaFish1968 said,

2 8' ground rods 6' apart is the NEC requirement. Using one continuous piece of #4 bare copper wire.

Depending on the meter system the provider uses they could see that the meter is removed, and shut down meter. Some “Smart Meters” have Tamper Detection in which case, removing the meter from the socket will throw an alert. If your power company does inquire, I’d simply say that you had an electrician here to replace a defective main breaker and he removed the meter for safety. It’s better than saying you did a panel upgrade and added a sub panel. When dealing with inspectors, the key word is “Existing”

Exactly what I was trying to point out
 

JDMopar

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Here's a thought, and @CudaFish1968 could tell you if it will work and is NEC legal. Remove one double pole breaker from your existing 200 amp panel, and add your 100 amp breaker to feed the new sub panel. Move the circuit that was fed from the breaker you removed to the new 100 amp panel and install the correct size breaker to feed that circuit. Unless there is something wrong with your existing 200 amp panel, it would save you several hundred bucks and a crap ton of trouble to do it that way.
 

CFD244

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Here's a thought, and @CudaFish1968 could tell you if it will work and is NEC legal. Remove one double pole breaker from your existing 200 amp panel, and add your 100 amp breaker to feed the new sub panel. Move the circuit that was fed from the breaker you removed to the new 100 amp panel and install the correct size breaker to feed that circuit. Unless there is something wrong with your existing 200 amp panel, it would save you several hundred bucks and a crap ton of trouble to do it that way.
This is how I added a sub ^^^^^^. Pulled the stove circuit and used that spot to power the sub. On a different note, the OP may need 4 spots to power a 100A circuit though. I did on my FP Stab-lok panel.
 

CudaFish1968

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This is how I added a sub ^^^^^^. Pulled the stove circuit and used that spot to power the sub. On a different note, the OP may need 4 spots to power a 100A circuit though. I did on my FP Stab-lok panel.
OMG if you have federal pacific panel it may be in your best interest to replace it.
Do a search on federal pacific breakers not tripping. Zinsco are just as bad.I know it's probably been there 40 or 50 years and worked perfect.
But when the current rises over the breakers trip range and it does not trip... melting insulation, over heating of the conductor going thru bored holes in wood, will not end up good.
I change them out frequently with Siemens or Cutler hammer panel boxes.
 

autoxcuda

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Just curious what the $ value and time value is you will save by excluding the power utility and the county (permits)?

He’s worried they will see that other work he’s done without permit and/or other stuff in general. Understandable. Would have been nice to do panel first before other work started. But that’s easy to say now.
 

4spdragtop

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I had our fuse panel replaced a few years back by contractors with a new panel with Stablok breakers. I moved the pony panel that was in house out to the shop. Now Stablok breakers are apparently hard to find!:wtf:
Pony panel moved to shop is also Stablok of course....
 

66jim

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When doing any work involving cutting the main power at the meter, I have always cut the clip carefully so it can be put back without notice. Then pulled meter and jumped the internal connections of the with shortened jumper cables. Done my work tested all circuits reinstalled meter. No permits, No utility company red tape. This is with an old school
meter the newer "smart" type meter multiples data over the neutral and the meter being pulled would be detected by the power company. When doing anything like this on the meter stand on a plastic milk crate or insulated barrier when making connections in case you slip and become a
Darwin theory of evolution statistic.
 

CFD244

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I had our fuse panel replaced a few years back by contractors with a new panel with Stablok breakers. I moved the pony panel that was in house out to the shop. Now Stablok breakers are apparently hard to find!:wtf:
Pony panel moved to shop is also Stablok of course....
The post above by @CudaFish1968 is referring to your panel.......And mine. Better get the chequebook out again.
 

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