Engine/ Trans Combo?

Small Block Mopar Engine

  1. Lostboy03

    Lostboy03 Member

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    Hello all. I have a couple of engine / transmission questions. I have a 360 with a casting code of 4006830-360-10. I see that it is a 1971-89. I also have a 4 speed manual trans overdrive that came from a 83 dodge van.

    1. What transmission is this or what code am I looking for to find out.

    2. Will this combination of motor/ transmission work together?

    3. Is there any reason not to use this combination in my 64 Dart? Trying for around 400 HP.

    4. What is the bell housing I will need for this combo if compatible?
     
  2. AJ/FormS

    AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s FABO Gold Member

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    As to question 2; yes this combo will work together.
    As to question 4; You kindof need the bell house that fits over that 5.125 retainer, which means everything else that goes with it as well. There are others that can be made to fit with some machining.
    As to question 3;
    That od trans has ratios of 3.09-1.67-1.00-.73od.. When you shift, the rpm drops are to 54%-60% and 73% ..
    To build a 400hp 360 is gonna take a mighty big cam, to put the power-peak up around 5600. With a shift rpm around 6000.
    When you shift into second the rpm will drop from 6000 to 3240. The torque peak doesn't even arrive until maybe 4100 or more. So, usually, that trans is a bust for a hi-rpm, narrow powerband engine.
    For a streeter;
    That combo is gonna want rear gears in the high 3.xxs, say 3.91s, to 4.10s. The 3.91s gives you a starter gear of 12.08, so that's kindof high but you need it to overcome the 1-2 rpm drop as shown above. So now, with 27" tires. 6000 in first will get you 40mph. The torque peak in second will come at around 4100 so that's 51mph. What's that big-cam engine gonna do from 40 to 51 mph; now in second gear? Well it's a good thing she's in a light-weight-A, so it won't struggle too badly.

    But that's not the worst of it. Keeping the 3.91s and the 27s; and going for a leisurely tour; which is gonna be about 95% of the time; a comfortable place to shift,for me, is about 2800rpm. My pipes are singing and the engine is sweetly pulling. The trouble is that on the 1-2 shift the rpm will drop to 1500. And if you've ever had a 400hp big-cammed, manual-trans, 360, then you'll know that this is a bit of a problem.
    Firstly; the engine has very little torque down there, so it's gonna take a lotta throttle to keep accelerating from what is now ~19mph.
    Secondly; but your ignition timing might already be 20/25 degrees. And depending on your chamber design, this could put you smack dab in the middle of detonation, so when that happens, you have to back off the throttle until it quits.
    Thirdly;So then you take out a bunch of timing , and turn second gear into a dog-gear until 3500rpm@43mpg..
    So what's the solution? Well;
    1) you could just run first gear up high enough so that it drops into second at some above-detonation point ..... but that is 43mph@6400rpm; so that's not a good option. Or
    2) You could build the engine and fuel it to be detonation free with a delayed timing curve. Or
    3) some combo of the above two. Or
    4) get rid of that PITA box that doesn't like this combo. Been there/done that.
    The problem with that box and a hi-rpm cam is that second gear is so very far away.
    In my experience, a nice second gear to the road with a 400hp 360 is about 6.80/7.00. To get that with that box will require a rear gear of 6.9/1.67= 4.10s . Now you just have to figure out how to get into that gear at a high enough rpm, so the engine will have the torque to pull it. Or you need to build the engine for torque. And that means you need to keep the cylinder pressure up, which means some combination of an early-closing intake and a lotta compression ratio. And that usually means throwing out the 400hp target.

    But if you get yourself a Commando 4-speed, with ratios of 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.00, then the 400hp combo is back on the table; I know it works cuz that's what I got.... in a 3650# 68 Barracuda. And I run it with 3.55s for a starter of 10.97 which easily gets me into 6.82 second gear road-gear. Do yourself a favor and use aluminum heads and crank up the pressure to at least 180psi. With this combo I run a 230/237/110 cam and full timing of 32/34 at 3400rpm on 87E10, 100% of the time. Idle-timing is just 14* to keep the low rpm from getting too jumpy.
    And I highly recommend a dash-mounted, dial-back, timing delay,box. With 3.55s the minimum roadspeed is 750rpm =5.5 mph. But with 180psi cylinder pressure and idle-timing of 18*, the power pulses will be so strong,that in a second or two the entire car is gonna begin to go into donkey-kick mode. The best cure I have found for that, is to retard the idle-timing ( I run 14*) and make sure your Transfer-slot exposure is set just right, so that when you retard it to ~5* with the dial-back, it will run at 550rpm@4.0 mph. Now the power pulses come waaay later with the piston already waaay down the bore, and running away from the flame. Mine will pull itself like that on a flat,level,hard, surface. And that's with 295/50-15s@24psi and 3650 chassis weight.

    I have tried EVERY A833 ratio Mopar ever made (not including the Hemi-stuff), and for a streeter,the Commando box is the one to get. And with the various boxes I have run; I have also run every rear gear from 2.76s to 4.30s except not 3.73s. And with the current 230 cam and Commando box; the 3.55s are more than adequate. I actually like 3.23s a lil better. But the 3.55s get me a lil closer to the rpm I want at 60mph in second gear. 3.91s would be perfect to top out at 60=5600, but I broke mine,lol.

    But I gottatellya;400hp in my 3650 chassis is waaaay overkill. I can't imagine it in a chassis ~400/500 pounds lighter.
    Happy HotRodding

    PS-1; to get to 400hp you will need long-tube headers and a free-flowing dual exhaust; log-manifolds are not an option for a streetable-cam. Early-As are notoriously hard to fit both headers and a clutch linkage. Be forewarned you may be in for some headaches, or sacrifices. I love my manual trans combo, so I would go for it. Jus saying.
    PS-2; If you cannot find a Commando box for a reasonable price, then, I see the regular box in a lightweight-A as an option. The only difference is the swap of the 3.09 low for a 2.66. It will be fine.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
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    • Lostboy03

      Lostboy03 Member

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      Thank you for all the information. I am going to have to read it a couple of times because there is so much. I am trying to keep this project on a strict budget. I have both of these parts now. Is there a more reasonable/ streetable way to do this with this combination. I don’t want to sacrifice all but I am on a budget.
       
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      • vntned

        vntned Well-Known Member

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        Um, the van overdrive trans won't work. You need a trans out of an Abody or Fbody Mopar...
         
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        • Kendog 170

          Kendog 170 Well-Known Member

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          Sell your OD tranny and bell housing or save the bellhousing and upgrade the a-body 4 spd with the bigger front bearing you can get that at Brewer's. Save some $ and find an A-body 833 4 speed not od. You can usually find them reasonable if your patient. Some guys will ask the world them though.
           
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          • Kendog 170

            Kendog 170 Well-Known Member

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            Too bad I sold an 67 abody 4 spd for $300 last June.
             
          • Lostboy03

            Lostboy03 Member

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            My dad has the trannny in his 64 step side up against a 225 slant 6. Don’t know if that changes anything.
             
          • Wyrmrider

            Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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            all good
            I usually get Aj in one pass but this one has a lot of meat in it
            you know what I'd do
            build a broader torque curve that matches the after shift torque to the over rev torque and sacrifice a few top of the curve hp
            build a detonation resistant motor
            5 speed?
            I'd see what roller cam mike jones comes up with given your inputs
            you need head flows starting at .050
            comments on headers is more than correct but not the large tube ones when you need a broader torque curve- they are narrow torque curve drag race usage
            btw stroker would really help here if you need to go through the motor
             
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            • AJ/FormS

              AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s FABO Gold Member

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              On a budget, with that od ratio package, in a streeter;
              It's all about torque, and a wide powerband.
              This takes careful forethought.
              To make torque takes cubes or cylinder pressure;
              and with 360LA iron open-chamber heads you are limited in what you can do compression/squish wise. Lemoore Ca is listed at ~230ft elevation ,so you got that going for you. With flat-top pistons like KB107s, and uncut parts, you are looking at a total chamber volume of ~86cc, and at 4.02 bore,a compression ratio of ~9.46.. On a strict budget that's about as good as it gets. And you get no squish with those heads.
              That limits your cylinder pressure to about 155 on pumpgas, depending on the engine loading and your driving style, and where exactly in CA you are gonna be driving. That pressure dictates your Intake closing angle, and therefore limits your power production at higher rpms.
              Plugging those numbers into the Wallace Calculator it spits out an Ica of 60*, for 157psi and a strong VP of 138.
              So now you just go shopping for a cam that slams the door at 60*Ica, and let the horsepower be what it will be.
              Ok, so remembering that you are on a strict budget, lets not spring for fancy valve gear, nor headers. And lets marry that engine to that od ratio package.
              I come up with an HFT cam of about
              262/270/114+5, o/lap of 38*, Compression of 120*,and extraction of 106*..
              if you can find a fast-rate-of-lift, this could get you .050 numbers of up to 222/230, and your lift has to stay within the working limits of the heads. But more likely is that you end up with a half size smaller @.050 cam; say 218/228. And yes for a wee bit more extraction (fuel economy) and log manifolds you could go with a 112 LSA; something like this;
              262/268/112+3. o/lap of 41*, compression of 120*, and extraction of 111* ; yeah that looks like a reasonable trade .
              Ok so a 262cam is relatively small, peaking at ~5000rpm, meaning no where near 400hp. But put some decent springs on it and you can wind her out another 600 or more rpm. The thing is, at a predicted 157psi cylinder pressure and 138VP, and 112/114 LSA. this 360 is gonna make very significant torque, to drive that 1-2 gearchange; and that is gonna put you into second gear at an rpm where she can actually pull that 1.67 ratio, without tortoise-like acceleration.
              Now you just have to put that gear where you want it speed-wise, to make her a fun car. Earlier I suggested a 2nd-gear road gear of about 6.9 and that still stands, and that leads to a rear gear of 4.10s. While that sounds steep, with the .73overdrive those 4.10s become 2.99 hiway gears. Thinking this over I suggest an upgear to 4.30s because this will put you engine at 5350@60 mph, about just right for low-ET to 60 with that long flat powerband; and on the hiway 65=2535rpm.Those 4.30s will put you at 30mph=2700 and now in the roadgear of 7.18, so again; depend on the torque to spin the tires to get you rocketing ahead. With a big-cam,low-pressure 360, 2700rpm would be a dog. And 4.10 will be a lil softer as well. So I would go 4.30s on this combo.
              For a streeter; it's all about having the right torque at the right mph. I can't stress this enough.
              IDK how much power the above engine might make, and honestly I wouldn't much care, cuz she's gonna spin almost any street tire you can fit into the factory car, to close to somewhere after 50 mph. If I had to guess, I don't think it would top 300hp . But consider this; your only significant costs are;the pistons,boring, camkit and gasketry... oh and the 4.10/4.30/ SureGrip. This pkg will work with 3.55s or better, but the closer to 4.10/4.30s you get, the more fun, and the quicker to 60mph it will be. Oh yeah; yur gonna need tires; big fat sticky tires,lol
              IMO, this is about the cheapest and best way to get where you wanna go with those two major items.

              Somebody said that van trans will not work. The reason is that the rear mount does not bolt into a car, any car,period. But changing that only takes the proper A/F body tail and mainshaft.
              If you go to a GM wrecking yard, you can find a cast-iron longtail A833overdrive there. Stealing the tail and mainshaft from one of those, allows you to put the shifter back between the buckets, making for a comfortable driving experience because with 4.30s, you will be doing a lotta shifting.And that would require bucketseats. And you will look like Mr.Cool, not being hunched over the shifter anymore. And yes you can use an aluminum tail, if you can find one, but that might require a different rear bearing.no big deal.

              I ran almost this exact combo for a couple of years, 223/230/110 cam with 4.30s ..allbeit with aluminum heads and a lot more pressure. I was very happy.(With aluminum heads and tight-Q some guys here are running up to 200psi cylinder pressure, still on pumpgas; I was only at 180ish)
              That same engine went 12.9@106mph at 3650# and 720 ft elevation; but with 245/60-14s and 3.55s, but with a regular 2.66 low trans...... Mr Wallace says 335hp (367 cubes at 11/1 Scr)
               
              Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
            • MOPAROFFICIAL

              MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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              Use any length 4 spd you want. Just make a plate to move the shifter where it needs to be and shorten the driveshaft.

              I have a 1970 833 b/e body tail in my valiant. Things rock solid and I've never rebuilt it..
              You'll need the right bellhousing, if its available to mate the 360 to the OD trans to start.
               
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              • Kendog 170

                Kendog 170 Well-Known Member

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                Great thought. Then when you find the right one just swap it out. Then you'll be happy as a clam.
                 
              • Lostboy03

                Lostboy03 Member

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                Is that the transmission I have. The 833? Sorry still don’t know the style transmission I have.
                 
              • MOPAROFFICIAL

                MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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                It has a f/r/c weight ratio of 49% with that transmission.
                I have an a body trans but I'm leaving the long tail in.
                 
              • MOPAROFFICIAL

                MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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                If it's a stick overdrive...then it's the 833 od.
                Out of a truck? Long tail/ 727 style length
                 
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                • Lostboy03

                  Lostboy03 Member

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                  What is the difference between long and short
                   
                • Lostboy03

                  Lostboy03 Member

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                  Originally from a van. 1,2,3 then od.
                   
                  Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
                • MOPAROFFICIAL

                  MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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                  Shifter boss location.
                  A body cars used both short and long tail automatics depending on the application. When it came to manual transmissions there was one designated for the a body and it would be the short tail.
                   
                • Lostboy03

                  Lostboy03 Member

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                  OK. I fanally have a little bit of time. Work is crazy. Thank you for all the help and please keep it coming. I know the combo is not ideal so here is why it is a thing. My dads truck motor is done. I am giving him my built 225 slant 6. He also cant work the clutch pedal any more so there goes my Barracuda 3 speed. In no way complaining but Dad tought me all I know and has sacraficed for me. The car is a 1964 Dodge Dart. 8.8 Rear. Disc brakes on all four corners. V8 Leaf springs. Small block torsion bars. I bought it when I was 16 for $300 and it has survived me being forward deployed to Japan for 7 years and 2 years in the sand box so it is not going anywhere. Family man with three kids leaves little room for toys on a Military pay. I will be selling the Cox Brothers roller rockers from the 225 and a four barrel manifold from 6=8 to help fund the build. Also have a set of big block torsion bars to sell. Last but not least a complete V10 from a later RAM rebuilt just in case anyone is looking. Again thank you for all of your help.
                   
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                  • Wyrmrider

                    Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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                    Use the largest torsion bars you can find if using wider wheels and radial tires
                    you want them to be flat against the pavement
                    small torsion bars were for bias ply tires back in the day
                     
                  • Wyrmrider

                    Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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                    aj
                    why not the kb quench dome pistons if he is running stock heads
                    256 or 262 lunati Voodoo
                    or howards 711381-10 255 duration on the intake but 470 lift
                    or
                    711651-10
                    but check the torque curve to make sure there is plenty of "after shift" and low end for that 4 speed with no torque converter multiplication
                    I think howard must be at .008 would be about the same running duration as 260 voodoo
                     
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                    • Kendog 170

                      Kendog 170 Well-Known Member

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                    • greymouser7

                      greymouser7 Vagrant Vagabond “Veni Vidi Vici” FABO Gold Member

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                      The only reason that the '4 speed manual trans overdrive' A833 will NOT work is that truck transmissions have the B-body length shaft, not because it is an overdrive transmission. truck transmissions also run a 143 tooth gear flywheel with a larger bell housing that will NOT fit in your 64 Dart without cutting the firewall. you would have to cut and re-engineer the transmission mount & crossmember with the longer shaft/& casing that trucks & b-body's share
                       
                    • AJ/FormS

                      AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s FABO Gold Member

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                      I was thinking that as well, but now there will be additional machining costs to optimize the fit. I would absolutely go with a step dome piston and the tight-Q design, keep the od box, and whatever rear-gear is in it (for now), but on a budget, I would have to slam it together without any decking or shaving, unless required, PLUS whatever it might take to fit those pistons into the chambers. It's a lil extra money,maybe, but the detonation resistance and the extra compression would be so worth it.
                      Unfortunately I don't see the KB 190s as having enough step to do the job in an open-chamber , leaving the KB 191s with .150 pop up on top of the .050 elevated Q-pad, meaning in the neighborhood of .100 is gonna need to come off them.
                      I guess you could use the KB 190s and shave the heads maybe .050 (remains to be measured).
                      But in either case; that will likely drive the Scr to over 10.5/1, I think. Meaning that nice torquey little fast-rate 262 is no longer gonna work.
                      10.5 with iron heads is gonna want an Ica up near 72 degrees. And that is looking like a 284 to 292 cam :( ,lol, which will never work with that od box, and his gearing. Ok well I couldn't make it work.
                       
                    • AJ/FormS

                      AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s FABO Gold Member

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                      OP has a trans from an 83 Dodge van. I was thinking those were very short tails and were suspended from the top, with the shifter pad, if it has one, right there in about the B-body position which cannot in any circumstances be used in a stock A-body tunnel. In fact on my B/E longtail, that front B-body mount had to be partially hacked off to not hit inside the crossmember.
                      If I'm wrong then I apologize.
                       
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