Estimating jobs...

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Cope

Cope

Fusing with fire
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Man I cant seem to get a handle on estimating jobs.

I always end up working for free.

With wood working I know how long a job should take beacuse I've done it but with these old cars and especially on fancy show cars, I have no idea how long it will or should take.

Where I get screwed is I cant afford to turn away work so I bid it on the low end. Then as we all know a million little things happen and now I'm working for free.

I would love to just bid by the hour but even then it can go bad as the customer has no idea how hard it is to wire an entire car/truck in a fashion that fits the build.

My problem is I want everything perfect and I cant stop and say well that's all they paied for...

With wood work I got to make all my mistakes on my boss dime now it's all on me and the stress is almost to much.

I feal like I'm so close to loosing it all but at the same time I'm doing cars and have customers that are so far out side my comfort zone. If I can just pull it all off this crazy idea could just pay for it self or even, God forbid make me money....

How do folks do it?
 
I am with you on this.
As a Carpenter, I can usually come close to estimating the time to do a job. With cars the Flat Rate schedules have established a standard time for repairs on late model cars but with classics, there are SO many more variables.
 
Cope said:
Man I cant seem to get a handle on estimating jobs.

I always end up working for free.

With wood working I know how long a job should take beacuse I've done it but with these old cars and especially on fancy show cars, I have no idea how long it will or should take.

Where I get screwed is I cant afford to turn away work so I bid it on the low end. Then as we all know a million little things happen and now I'm working for free.

I would love to just bid by the hour but even then it can go bad as the customer has no idea how hard it is to wire an entire car/truck in a fashion that fits the build.

My problem is I want everything perfect and I cant stop and say well that's all they paied for...

With wood work I got to make all my mistakes on my boss dime now it's all on me and the stress is almost to much.

I feal like I'm so close to loosing it all but at the same time I'm doing cars and have customers that are so far out side my comfort zone. If I can just pull it all off this crazy idea could just pay for it self or even, God forbid make me money....

How do folks do it?
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I do some 'handyman' work. Just side jobs for pocket money. I almost always do $/hr. That way if there is a change to the job parameters, I don't need to re-negotiate. As for being a perfectionist, sometimes you need to go back to the person and say, I' can make this work in this much time, or this much more time I can do it better.' Let them decide. On the other hand, If I know going in that they don't want to pay for a minimum acceptable standard, I just pass on doing the work.​
 
Understand what you are going thought and have seen the same thing happen on the large restoration jobs, the customers get shell shocked when it comes time to pay the bill.

I have heard of a good way of going about it. It is to do the project in stages and get paid in full at the end of each stage.

Examples as follows:
Bring the car in and talk it over with the customer and give them a general idea of what they are getting into.

If they agree and want to continue go to stage 1.

Stage 1: Open up or Tear down the car to reveal any additional work that needs to be addressed, now get paid for this.

Stage 2: Clean up all rust and or decay areas Including soda blasting/sand blasting and then prime the car, now get paid for this.

Now the customer has a good idea how the project is coming along and sees results and has opened his wallet so now he has skin in the game.

Now all agree to move forward go on to Stage 3,
If customer does not agree, the customer may stop the work at this time as he has paid for everything up to this point and it is his decision.

Step 3: Weld in all missing steel and corrosion repair areas fixed. get paid for this.
Step 4: Now is the time to shape up the exterior bodywork filling and straightening process getting ready for the paint work, now get paid for this.
Step 5: Primer Surfacer work over body work, block sand out to get straight for painting and remove all scratches, now get paid for this.

On and On, each stage you complete get squared up and paid. This allows you to let go of the worry of getting paid for your previous work and allows you to concentrate on the next steps of the job that the customer has hired you to do. If the customer wants estimates for each stage as you proceed, it is a lot easier to estimate one stage at a time as you are going through it than it is to estimate the whole job sitting out in somebodies driveway at the start of the job. Complete the stage, get paid for it. Then estimate the next stage and continue on.

As any business you have to build up your reputation and following as people become more and more happy with your workmanship, then it goes into supply and demand as your schedule starts to fill and you get a backlog of customers then you can start to raise your prices as people are standing in line to have you do the work for them.

So as you say: I would love to just bid by the hour
You can develop a track history of the stages with photos to show customers that this is what it cost the last customer to do Stages 1,2,3, &4. If they like what they see and can afford it, then bring them in as a customer.

If they can't afford it, better off not getting involved in project in the first place. Try to find some quicker turn around work, get paid and keep building your business.

Hope this helps . . .
 
It used to work out like that for me back when I was doing body work for a living, I'd write an estimate and the collision manual would give time's, then something freaky would happen like bolt's breaking off in something or paint lifting over old paint or something causing more time, I'd win on some and loose on some I finally decided to go to factory work and keep body work as a hobby.
 
That seems so simple and I will start billing like that but for a small shop like mine it's not so easy.

I realy thank you for breaking it down.

My customers want one bill but I see what your saying about breaking it up.

Thank you!
 
I like the idea of breaking it up; just make sure it is in logically separate steps so the customers can see and agree with the logic.

At some point, you have to assess the overall market and what it will support. In San Jose, I bet there are lots of guys wanting to make it doing what you do. If so, then it is just going to be competitive, and margins will be thin unless you are one of the top shops with the best reputations. Making it to that level is a years long process....

At some point, you have to decide what you will accept as the return for your time, and charge accordingly, and it if does not work, move on to something else. That is the key to being happy with the 'simple' approach like charging hourly rates..... deciding that it HAS to work a certain way for you or it is not worth it.
 
Estimate?
As hours increase rate goes down.
Daily drivers my rate is 70/hour.
Max charge for full day depends on interruptions and breaks.
5-6 hours.
Rod rate is 60/hour for every hour spent.
I estimate high and come out low. Usually.

You hit a snag, broken bolt is a perfect example. Its over and above the estimate as its out of your control.
Just did a rocker panel job that i was not expecting to take as long,ended up at 22 hours.
I charged 15. Sure, i gave up a day’s pay but i felt it was still a fair price.
 
Time and materials. Anything else will eventually leave you in a dry lake. If a potential customer snarls at it, either you aren't bringing something to the plate worthy of running your biz this way or it's someone you don't want in your life......

JW
 
What I did was start raising my prices until I had just the right amount of work and was getting paid good for it.:D
Now I work for top dollar for a few less people.
Just a thought for you.
 
I work with estimators in commercial construction every day. Some of them can get a job really close (as little waste as possible) others end up with multiple lifts of board laying around the jobsite and bundles of insulation all over. One thing they all do is over estimate the amount of time it will take their guys. That way if things go wrong they are still safe but if things go well then they can wrap up the job early and it makes them look good. If you get a job that will take 20 hours then estimate if taking 25. If you get it done in 20 then bill them for 20 and not 25. You will have a happy customer!
 
TrailBeast said:
What I did was start raising my prices until I had just the right amount of work and was getting paid good for it.:D
Now I work for top dollar for a few less people.
Just a thought for you.
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My intentions also. Some customers dont care what it costs as they know the value of quality work.
 
"Quality is long remembered, after price is forgotten."

Quote from one of my old time customers of the 80's as I was doing work for him.
 
Let the customer set the tone. Talk together about specifics of repair or build. You know where you need to be for work required.
Ask customer what type of budget they are considering for the work. Makes them very comfortable. Process paperwork with agreement terms in front of client.
If not doe-able on what they state explain cost involved and move on to next client if necessary.
Undersell & over deliver.
If you go over estimate to client. Eat it unless extreme unforeseen issues.
Your rep is everything and i can say from what I've seen of your work you already have a great one.:thumbsup:
 
Number one, don’t get in too deep money wise. I now have a $1000 limit on my services thanks to a couple of members here, who still owe me $300 after almost 5 years. They wanted me to continue working on their stuff, but didn’t want to recip and work on my stuff, so I handed them the bill and walked off the job. Glad I did too as my car would be locked in their pergatory like a car I bought from a buddy that’s still there, after having them bail on his project over running up a bill and constantly asking for money. Which would be fine, if the labor provided actually mirrored their bill to the guy. I consider myself lucky to only be taken for $300 by these guys! And, like you, I gave them a hell of a deal on my end, only to be burned by them.

Set a limit, make a goal to get to certain stages within that limit, and don’t go on until you’re paid for that stage, as mentioned above.
 
My opinion... Talk to the customer, let them know that things go wrong, tell them that by default, you have to bid jobs on the high side. Now, let them know if you come in under the bid, they get some back, or if they are not looking for absolute perfection, you can work with that on the budget.
 
It's really simple. If you think a job should be 5000, quote extra. If everything goes well, give the customer back whatever you feel is fair. It's a huge plus when a job comes in under budget. Your reputation as an honest person will get around.
 
BTW, one tactic that moght hlp you: There's nothing wrong with giving an hourly rate, but then say you expect it to take so many hours, so much materials, and that it is estimated to cost so much... but that you cannot guarantee based upon possible snags. At that point, you are in a position to give a comfortable estimate, and if you beat it, you can charge less and that is good for everybody.

We do this on a few jobs that have unclear scopes of work. If that approach is not workable (some organizations have to approve a budgeted amount and write a PO), then we give a fixed price that meets OUR comfort level and if we come in under time and budget, we just don't invoice as much.

One thing I have found is that we lose few, if any, jobs if I have to push up a quote 10-15% to meet the reality of what I know will happen (from experience). So, I don't lose sleep (or hurt myself) over whittling things down to the bare minimum.
 
I have worked for pennies on a dollar on a few jobs so to speak. Friends and relatives will think nothing of taking advantage of u. Get everything in writing. CYA. Unforeseen stuff happens. Make that clear to the customer. I just ate a whole tranny job for a friend even though it was nothing to do with my work. Kim
 
My brother us 81 years old
..he restores high dollar vintage Jaguars.

He works cheap...$35.00 an hour but he bills by the week. He usually works 20 hours per week. If you don't send him his $700.00 check he takes the week off. After two weeks of no money he charges storage on the car.

The last Jag he did has won multiple awards on the national scene. He has done Pebble Beach winners.

Great workmanship but you have to pay him.
 
Back a few decades ago, I had a country bodyman that did some of my cars. Most tallented person. He did some street rods, and could do anything from body to anything mechanical. . He had several customers that had budgets and $ restraints, so they agreed on a $$ of work to be done every month/week whatever. They agreed on what work was to done that month, and the price. He got is $ every billing cycle.
 
First you are trying to make things perfect, admirable and it’s what every customer wants but they may not be able to afford it. The adage that you can have it two of the following; fast, good or cheap but not all three is a good discussion to have with customers.

Think of the estimates (& establishing an understanding of what you will be providing) is the most important aspect of a project. I know that I can’t do it for my own car projects so I can’t help with the details but you have some excellent suggestions from others.
 
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Not sure what you are doing, but I could never make money the way I do things. I do know when I had the paint and bodywork done on the 66 Barracuda, I pulled the drivetrain and sent $1,000 whenever he asked for it. When it was done, put the drivetrain back in and drove it from Marion, SD to Greenwood, SC. Best money I ever spent.
 
SSVDP said:
First you are trying to make things perfect, admirable and it’s what every customer wants but they may not be able to afford it. The adage that you can have it two of the following; fast, good or cheap but now all three is a good discussion to have with customers.

Think of the estimates (& establishing an understanding of what you will be providing) is the most important aspect of a project. I know that I can’t do it for my own car projects so I can’t help with the details but you have some excellent suggestions from others.
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You mentioned the paradox. Good,Fast,Cheap. Pick two. It doesent work any other way.
 
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