ethanol in gas bad for our cars?

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  1. slantsixdan

    slantsixdan =..=

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    That's what was going through my head, but I didn't want to ruffle the feathers of participants in this thread who may be more volatile than, say, butane.
    [​IMG]

    Wait, y'mean the hygroscopicity of ethanol has to be factored in? Hey! Who the hell do you think you are, telling the landscaper guy he can't decide himself into a fuel formulation expert?!

    Perhaps you will have better luck, but I tried that right-tool-for-the-job line of argument right here in this very thread and it didn't get much traction with those who are bound 'n' determined to believe in the use of 2-cycle oil as a gasoline additive to ameliorate the bad effects of ethanol.
     
  2. yarcraft91

    yarcraft91 Well-Known Member

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  3. goldfish65

    goldfish65 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    I know the MMO came out ages ago, but I just thought maybe it had properties that counteracted the bad effects of the ethanol.
     
  4. slantsixdan

    slantsixdan =..=

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    It'd be great if someone with the time and facilities would do a thorough practical test of various fuel additives' effect (or lack of effect) on ethanol-relevant things like corrosion of potmetal, RVP and octane rating of fuel, water absorption, and so forth. Unfortunately, it's not likely to happen any time soon; carbureted engines are such an invisibly tiny slice of the market that the fuel companies scarcely take them into account when formulating fuels, additive marketeers and magazines have commercial interest in particular outcomes and so can't really be trusted to provide straightforward information, and there's not likely to be much funding available for a project of this nature on the academic market.
     
  5. 340-4spd

    340-4spd Well-Known Member

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    Any fuel formulation experts have an idea what the primary component of MMO, 2-cycle oil, and any those "right-tools-for-the-job" might be?

    I'll give you another hint: They're all the same.

    But plz feel free to pay 10 time the price for the same thing with a bit of snake oil added for your pleasure.
     
  6. yarcraft91

    yarcraft91 Well-Known Member

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    In my view, boat owners have problems similar to what we car collectors face- a car or boat can sit for months in storage and we need to worry about fuel degradation. Older cars like my 1967 have vented fuel systems, just like boats, so water accumulation in gasoline is a problem that daily driver cars just don't see.

    Over in the marine engine community, we've seen lots of gas additive formulation changes in the past 10 years to deal with the problems E10 fuel has caused there. Gas additives for automotive applications seem to have changed little if at all. I use a marine fuel stabilizer in all my non-daily-driver fuel. I've been involved in active discussions about marine fuel treatment for about 10 years and I don't ever recall hearing anyone talk about treating gasoline with MMO for marine use.
     
  7. yarcraft91

    yarcraft91 Well-Known Member

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    BTW, if you want to do some research on fuel additives, do a Google or Yahoo search for the MSDS sheet for each additive. For example, for Stabil (a popular marine additive), search for "stabil msds". You will discover that Stabil (red) is 95% isopropanol, while Stabil Marine (blue) is 80% petroleum distillate- very different chemistries.

    Pay close attention to the date on any MSDS sheet you find- every time the formulation changes, a new sheet is issued and all the old ones stay on-line. For some companies, like Mercury Marine, you can find 4-5 different MSDS sheets for the product they call a fuel stabilizer, due to all the changes they've been making in the product. The latest-dated MSDS you can find probably reflects what is on shelves today.
     
  8. slantsixdan

    slantsixdan =..=

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    Well, sure, y'zoom yer view out far enough and paint thinner, carburetor cleaner, Marvel Mystery Oil, gasoline, diesel, 2-stroke oil, 4-stroke oil, varsol, stoddard solvent, Sta-Bil, nail polish remover, and Cheez-Whiz are all the same; they're all petroleum distillates.

    Put yer glasses and thinking cap on, look a leetle closer, and you see that the devil's in the details and it might be best to pick the right kind and mix of petroleum distillates for whatever task it is you might want to do.

    (Also: if a straight-line fit is required, obtain only two data points.)
     
  9. 340-4spd

    340-4spd Well-Known Member

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    Unless you are pouring solvents into your tank, (which is almost NEVER a good idea BTW, but that's another topic) the fuel and lube additives will contain some variation of a base oil + additives. Not zooming THAT far out, I'll eat the Cheezwiz, thank you very much. The base oil or carrier constitutes most if not over 90% of the product in some cases. That small percentage typically comprises the additive package reflecting most if not all of the nasty bits in the MSDS yarcraft alludes to.

    Snake oil. The snakes come in all different flavors, or "tools" for various jobs if you will, but they are all basically some type of base oil with a few goodies added, that are for the most part not very effective compared to the claims made for them.
     
  10. 340-4spd

    340-4spd Well-Known Member

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    Just to tag on to this little quip, you might be interested to know (or willfully ignorant to dismiss, I don't know) that 2-cycle oils contain additive packages with among other things depending on formulation, dispsersants and anti-oxidants which are great for combating storage effects amplified by ethanol. It is in fact (gasp) intended to be mixed with gasoline and




    wait







    for








    it....











    Burned!

    Just in case you overlooked those few seemingly relevant details. :cheers:
     
  11. grr8_65

    grr8_65 Well-Known Member

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    One of the few place left to buy GASOLINE is at the boat ramp. 2 cycles don't like it and the boating industry has been able to get a waiver. How long the waiver will be honored is not known. We need to get with the experimental aircraft builders who use automobile engines in their aircraft, and the boat owners association to try and get back to real mogas
     
  12. slantsixdan

    slantsixdan =..=

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    I don't imagine that marine exemption's going to last too long. I used to be able to fill up my car with 100LL avgas, then that started being enforced but I could still fill up a few 5-gallon gas cans with 100LL, now that's no longer possible unless I am prepared to provide a verifiable aircraft tail number and other documentation for my intended application of the fuel.
     
  13. 340-4spd

    340-4spd Well-Known Member

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    Wonder why the boating industry got a waiver?

    I guess it's considered OK if your car breaks down. Maybe a bit more of an issue on a boat, depending.
     
  14. slantsixdan

    slantsixdan =..=

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    Didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me much.
     
  15. Rice Nuker

    Rice Nuker Let the Coal Roll!

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    Could you extrapolate considerably on why mixing oil with gasoline counteracts or augments the alcohol init? I generally understand that oil is dissolved by gasoline and i suppose it is dissolved by the alcohol in gasoline too.

    Alcohol has a low vapor pressure for its molecular weight but when mixed with petroleum the solution has a higher vapor pressure because the petroleum prevents the alcohol molecules from adhering to one another to to blocked polar bonds. Does the oil help abate this issue?
    Is the advantage of oil additive because it adds lubrication properties to your fuel injectors or pistons or valve guides? Is this a desired effect because alcohol reduces the lubricity of petrol fuel?
    Does it prevent alcohol from attracting water? Does it increase the caloric content of the fuel? How much oil are you considering to reach what type of result?

    This is quite an interesting thread here.

    Also, I may just go out to my 21hp kohler craftsman lawnmower and put in a bottle of 2 stroke oil to celebrate this Saturday fuel discussion. At least if nothing else my rings will be lubed and my plugs will be fouled. Oh yea, and the coal will roll!

    .





     
  16. slantsixdan

    slantsixdan =..=

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    I'd like to see that extrapolation. So far my requests for it have not borne fruit; perhaps yours will.

    Â…and to what degree does oil added to the fuel do these things vs. proportion of oil in the gasohol? And if there are in fact any real benefits to adding oil to the fuel, how does the proportion of oil required to get the benefits compare to the proportion of oil at which significant octane reduction occurs?

    Yep, and it'll get even more interesting with more facts and support for assertions, IMO.
     
  17. 340-4spd

    340-4spd Well-Known Member

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    As described in the link previously posted and subsequently dismissed by Dan as having nothing to do with the topic:
    Basically you are pushing this intermolecular force back towards where it started before ethanol was added to the fuel. So E10 becomes maybe E8 for vapor pressure purposes? That might be a .1% effective VP change, but I don't know what the threshold is. Ethanol nudges the vapor pressure up far enough to cause driveability issues in hot conditions where the fuel reaches boiling point quicker and at a lower temperature. I have no way of measuring it. I only know the behavior seen in my own vehicle from what I suspected to be ethanol-related fuel problems this past summer.

    YMMV.
    Not making any dosage recommendations, but if that happened you probably used too much. I saw no telltale smokeage from my Chrysler's tailpipes with a qt/30 gal.
     
  18. Rice Nuker

    Rice Nuker Let the Coal Roll!

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    Hey 340-4spd,

    So, you are saying that oil helps with alcohol's intermolecular disassociation issue which is brought on by gasoline?

    "Basically you are pushing this intermolecular force back towards where it started before ethanol was added to the fuel."

    Or are you saying that it alters the overall vapor pressure of the solution by altering the vapor pressure of the gasoline rather than the alcohol?

    Because I am about to get some bar and chain lube and put it in my 110 cc mini bike. And the smoke will roll down from the mountain and land up the side of the non coal rollers heads!

    .
     
  19. 340-4spd

    340-4spd Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying anything. That's just a wild-assed guess. The only thing I'm saying is it doesn't boil nearly as much or as bad, and I think that's why.

    You're going to have to do your own experiments and I'm not arguing with Dan anymore, because apparently he can read my mind knows how my car runs, so what's the point? ](*,)

    BTW bar and chain lube is not 2-cycle oil, so I'd be careful about that...
     
  20. yarcraft91

    yarcraft91 Well-Known Member

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    The effect you are talking about is a positive deviation from Raoult's Law of partial pressures. Yes, adding ethanol to gasoline increases the overall vapor pressure of the fuel, for sorta the reason you state. But, the physical/chemical interactions between ethanol and a light hydrocarbon in gasoline or a heavy one in an oil is pretty much the same- adding oil isn't likely to change the vapor pressure of ethanol in E10 gasoline.

    Well, the oil-based additives claim a lubricity effect- I dunno. They will not prevent ethanol attracting water, if anything, they may enhance that process. Ethanol decreases the caloric content of gasoline because ethanol has about 39% less energy per unit volume- that's because ethanol is already partially oxidized.
     
  21. 340-4spd

    340-4spd Well-Known Member

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    Is that thing surging at low cruise, leaning out at idle or failing to re-start hot? :cry:

    If not you are probably just wasting good bar and chain lube. :wack:
     
  22. jhaas63

    jhaas63 Well-Known Member

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    anybody adding Seafoam...tons of people swear by it.
     
  23. Rice Nuker

    Rice Nuker Let the Coal Roll!

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    "BTW bar and chain lube is not 2-cycle oil, so I'd be careful about that..."

    dang, now my mini bike is on fire and so is half the field.

    "But, the physical/chemical interactions between ethanol and a light hydrocarbon in gasoline or a heavy one in an oil is pretty much the same- adding oil isn't likely to change the vapor pressure of ethanol in E10 gasoline."

    the effects of the non polar hydrocarbon molecules in oil and gasoline will do the same thing to the alcohol.

    But, like 340-4spd said .. let me turn what he said into a question..

    Will adding a low vapor pressure oil into the solution reduce the overall vapor pressure of the liquid? My guess is that it will but it will not prevent the alcohol from having its low vapor pressure properties due to lack of polar bonding thus will not abate the alcohol induced vapor lock issues. Man am I speculating here.

    "Well, the oil-based additives claim a lubricity effect- I dunno. They will not prevent ethanol attracting water, if anything, they may enhance that process. Ethanol decreases the caloric content of gasoline because ethanol has about 39% less energy per unit volume- that's because ethanol is already partially oxidized."

    So since alcohol molecules have been disassociated by petroleum they are free to bond more readily with water..
    Excellent plan. Watered down diluted oxygenated crap that costs more and more.

    Anything that has less energy pisses me off. The price goes up and its caloric yield goes down.

    What about just running 50% benzene and 50 % diesel?








    __________________
     
  24. Old Tired Rebel

    Old Tired Rebel Legandary Member Legendary Member

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    Seafoam only cleans the fuel system and doesn't do anything for ethanol,that I know of.
     
  25. Rice Nuker

    Rice Nuker Let the Coal Roll!

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