Flat tappet to solid roller...

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Miszny

Miszny

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Hello

I am planning to work on my duster during winter and decided to swap my camshaft with solid roller. Its a fun car that des like 2000 miles a 1500 miles a year tops. Its street driven as there are no tracks in my country.
I was also thinking about mechanical flat tappet... Not sure what is better for me so here goes all the info:

Engine is 471" B stroker.
Heads are ported 452s that flow 270 at .500 lift and something like 272 at .550 and this is as high as my flowchart shows data.
They were done by the Koffels Place.

Currently I have Comp Cams 21-225-4 flat tappet camshaft.
Cam specs are:
.507/.510 lift
110 lsa
240/246 duration at .050
I use it with 1,6:1 rockers so effective lift is
.540/.544

My converter is PTC 9,5" 3200+ stall. Trans was rebuilt this year and converter is brand new.

Carb is 950 double pumper.

Rear end is 8,75" with 4.11 gears.

With my heads i probably should avoid high lift and focus on duration so I was looking for a cam that has up to .550 lift and that has more duration than my current one but no luck.
I also want to avoid high rpm, my limiter is set to 6400rpm and I usually shift at 6200.
I will use new cam with standard ratio 1.5:1 roller rockers.

Looking at comp cams offer there is 23-702-9 cam that is almost perfect:
.576/.582
110 lsa
248/254 duration at .050

The only thing I dont like is the lift. I dont want to risk it ad I can get clearance issue.

Other alternaive is 23-741-9 cam:
.550/.550
110 lsa
244/244 duration at .050

But could have more duration...

Can You guys suggest something that You think is better?
Does custom grind make sense? Or is it my only option? ;-)
How much more is custom grind?
Can I go to solid roller just like that or any engine work is needed?
Is solid roller worth the extra money over solid flat tappet?
Any guesses about power gains?
Looking for advice from people that went thru this. I am in Europe so its a bit harder for me to get legit info.

Thanks!
 
Something I always did,on a decision:.... Always ask,the head Porter...He/She /They , already have done this recipe...,ask them.. If you don't like it,I get it...
 
Others,will chime in,Please be patient,didn't know you from Warsaw,Poland.. You will spend the money,get a custom grind ,to what you want? .. Give Bullitt cams,an email.. They get, this...
 
If you're not going to want much more lift, then I would avoid a solid roller. Provided you can get decent oil to keep flat tappets alive. I presume you've got that sorted out with your current setup. For one, your lifter bores are probably too large and too varied, they should be bushed, which is another $500 or so. Yes, many people don't; many people also cry about their **** being all blown up after they lose a lifter. Possibly not a common engine machinist setup in Europe, but any shop with a Rottler F60 series or similar CNC should be able to do it with the packaged software.

If you want to stay with Comp and a shelf grind, I would try their hydraulic 21-229-4, which is 251/257 duration at 050, but .564 lift with a 1.5 rocker, and stay with the current 1.6 rockers. I would try to pull weight out of the valvetrain with beehive springs, which should stay stable to 6500rpm. If you can wait a couple months, I'll have a beehive spring 451 built and can confirm or deny where the lifters collapse, rpm wise. Similar cams from Bullet, Hughes etc are also good. Or the Comp MM solid lobes on a custom cam are also an option. Since you're wanting to stay with a reasonable rpm limit, as well as still use it on the street, more duration becomes a point of diminishing returns. S/F....Ken M
 
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bOb shingler said:
go with the solid roller you will have the valves open longer on both sides of max lift.
Click to expand...
This is what I was thinking, my other argument for roller was less friction of the whole setup thus more power and I wanted non hydraulic setup.
I dont mind adjusting it from time to time and my other car also has solid flat tappet.
I am curious how much power I can gain this way say with the second .550 lift roller cam that I listed. I must check out what Isky or Lunati or Hughes has to offer.

Also have in mind that when I write "street use" it means that I go thru at least one set of tires per summer and I drive this car hard, this is not grocery getter ;-)
 
EchoSixMike said:
If you're not going to want much more lift, then I would avoid a solid roller. Provided you can get decent oil to keep flat tappets alive. I presume you've got that sorted out with your current setup. For one, your lifter bores are probably too large and too varied, they should be bushed, which is another $500 or so. Yes, many people don't; many people also cry about their **** being all blown up after they lose a lifter. Possibly not a common engine machinist setup in Europe, but any shop with a Rottler F60 series or similar CNC should be able to do it with the packaged software.

If you want to stay with Comp and a shelf grind, I would try their hydraulic 21-229-4, which is 251/257 duration at 050, but .564 lift with a 1.5 rocker, and stay with the current 1.6 rockers. I would try to pull weight out of the valvetrain with beehive springs, which should stay stable to 6500rpm. If you can wait a couple months, I'll have a beehive spring 451 built and can confirm or deny where the lifters collapse, rpm wise. Similar cams from Bullet, Hughes etc are also good. Or the Comp MM solid lobes on a custom cam are also an option. Since you're wanting to stay with a reasonable rpm limit, as well as still use it on the street, more duration becomes a point of diminishing returns. S/F....Ken M
Click to expand...

Actually I am trying to get rid of hydraulic lifters and dont go back. Solid lifters are much lighter and make lighter combo with valve/spring/lock/retainer combo allowing for lighter spring. This makes an engine gain rpm really quickly, my motor revs quicker than my buddys 340.
I dont really want to stay with Comp but they have lots of cams in their offer with nice description on the website so its easy to check what should do the job.
I dont belive in high lift hydraulic cams, I think they never actually have the claimed lift. We did an experiment once with putting solid lifters on hydraulic cam and power gain was around 30hp in my friends 383, and cam was small under ,500 lift.

I will at least get solid flat tappet and yes, I never had problem with flat tappet oiling, so I assumed that lifter bores are not in need of new bushings. I will do measuring to be sure, but dont expect problems here.

Would be great to test identical grinds in solid flat tappet and solid roller but it seems to me that you can have much more agressive lobes on rollers due to lifters design, but you loose on lifter weight...
 
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Abodybomber said:
Others,will chime in,Please be patient,didn't know you from Warsaw,Poland.. You will spend the money,get a custom grind ,to what you want? .. Give Bullitt cams,an email.. They get, this...
Click to expand...

I have many friends in US so what I normally do when in no hurry is I get stuff shipped to them and then they shipp all of it in one box to me. This year I have free shipping option because I am importing 68 Barracuda for a friend and will have his trunk space for all my stuff ;-)
 
What is your current valve spring installed height and retainer to seal clearance?
 
To start with, I'm wondering why you want more duration? More duration = more rpm. By adding duration you will move the power band up, but you're limiting at 6400? It kinda goes against what your build is. I would go the opposite.

With going to solid roller you will pickup some power, even if all cam specs are the same. Simply through the less drag the roller setup creates. You'll also pickup power going solid because you won't have the heavy hydraulic lifters, and the hydraulic action "dampens" some of the lift.

The number one reason (in my books) to go solid roller. Is to get a higher lift with lower duration. IE Wider power band with better low end torque. You can get a roller cam with 230ish duration, but still has .550 or more lift. This creates a wider power band, while still creating great drive-ability and good low end torque and throttle response.

In your instance, since you mention you are limiting to 6400 rpm (A little short for that cam in my opinion, but if you don't wanna spin it then don't). I would go with something in the following area

Duration @50 - 230-240 - Go with a split pattern cam, something like Lunati 40200730 Voodoo Solid Roller Cam - Chrysler 273-360 261/267 - Lunati Power
Lift - .550-.575. This will put you around the area that your heads flow best (although flow testing them higher and seeing where they actually drop off would be nice).
LSA - I would actually go 108. This will bring the power band lower (where you keep it). Yes, it will peak earlier, but whats that matter? You're shifting before that anyways. A LSA of 108 would also make more peak torque. Lower in the band. A tighter LSA will affect idle/drive-ability. But since you are going with less duration, the trade off is there.

Something like that should give you an engine with tighter/raspy throttle response. More torque at lower rpm. Lower power band. With those gears and in a 471" will REALLY fry the tires. I think next in your budget will be some drag radials.
 
FYI just got an email from Comp about solid roller cams, they ask 411$ for custom grind vs 337$ for off the shelf.
 
Isn't there something about running solid rollers on the street that involves periodic lifter rebuild/replacement?
 
txstang84 said:
Isn't there something about running solid rollers on the street that involves periodic lifter rebuild/replacement?
Click to expand...

Not that I've ever heard of. All the old cars ran solid cam's for years. There is periodic valve lash adjustment, usually every 3-5k miles. But everyone I know who runs solid roller has said even after 5k miles they have yet to find them out adjustment. They really aren't as maintenance intensive as we are lead to believe.
 
That's interesting, I can't think of an older anything that ran solid rollers...solid flat tappet, yes, even into the 70s but adjustment of flat tapped solids vs rebuilding of the solid roller lifters are two different things. I'll try to find the article where I read it and post back.
 
Lustle said:
To start with, I'm wondering why you want more duration? More duration = more rpm. By adding duration you will move the power band up, but you're limiting at 6400? It kinda goes against what your build is. I would go the opposite.

With going to solid roller you will pickup some power, even if all cam specs are the same. Simply through the less drag the roller setup creates. You'll also pickup power going solid because you won't have the heavy hydraulic lifters, and the hydraulic action "dampens" some of the lift.

The number one reason (in my books) to go solid roller. Is to get a higher lift with lower duration. IE Wider power band with better low end torque. You can get a roller cam with 230ish duration, but still has .550 or more lift. This creates a wider power band, while still creating great drive-ability and good low end torque and throttle response.

In your instance, since you mention you are limiting to 6400 rpm (A little short for that cam in my opinion, but if you don't wanna spin it then don't). I would go with something in the following area

Duration @50 - 230-240 - Go with a split pattern cam, something like Lunati 40200730 Voodoo Solid Roller Cam - Chrysler 273-360 261/267 - Lunati Power
Lift - .550-.575. This will put you around the area that your heads flow best (although flow testing them higher and seeing where they actually drop off would be nice).
LSA - I would actually go 108. This will bring the power band lower (where you keep it). Yes, it will peak earlier, but whats that matter? You're shifting before that anyways. A LSA of 108 would also make more peak torque. Lower in the band. A tighter LSA will affect idle/drive-ability. But since you are going with less duration, the trade off is there.

Something like that should give you an engine with tighter/raspy throttle response. More torque at lower rpm. Lower power band. With those gears and in a 471" will REALLY fry the tires. I think next in your budget will be some drag radials.
Click to expand...

Thanks, now this helps me out a lot!
I see that I had wrong understaning of duration. My idea was to keep the valves open as long as possible to get more air/fuel mix in with my limited lift.
My guess is that flow drops over what the flowchart does not show... Just a guess.
I initially used 6800 limter, perhaps I should go back to it. I put 6400 to keep things live longer. I have forged rods and pistions so perhaps im overreacting.
Until now I had failures every single year this one included. I just recently blew up my converter and rebuilt the whole transmission. This was also a lesson about how important converter is. Getting the right one felt like adding 50hp or more. I did not expect this.

The goal of my changes is to optimize what is in there by putting best matching cam I can get for this combo with minimal changes to everything else. I hope I will end up with new cam, lifters, pushrods and timing set only. If I keep lift under 550 I can also keep my valve springs that I got new last year. I had no problems reving to 6800 with them.

If I wanted to get only power I would go with some forced induction, but parts avilability makes me want to keep it reasonable. The car is pretty quick already, just need more optimized and reliable.

About tires, I was using Hoosier 295/60/15 Quick Time DOT tires, but yes I recently got MT drag radials in almost identical size. Its a 29" tire. Hoosiers have great traction but dont last too long... Hope MT will do better about it but will probably be much heavier. I could not belive how light my wheels were with Hoosiers.

I will dyno the car before changes are made to see whats what after.

The link you gave is for small block cam but I see what you mean.

If I were to do custom grind that has 3000-6500 power band and lift up to 550 how would you spec it out?

I almost got this cam:
21-232-4(Single Bolt) - Xtreme Energy™ Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts

Then roller idea came to mind and I decidet to wait it out and ask people that know better.
 
here's one of the places I saw it...

Solid Roller Cam Setup - Popular Hot Rodding Magazine

It even references periodic inspection of lifters, even with the new premium parts

"Shane also suggested that regular maintenance could help avoid problems: “As far as maintenance, I recommend watching the lash. Over time, the valvetrain will settle and the lash will not vary much. If you notice the lash on one or more lifters starts loosening up more than normal, that’s when I would recommend pulling them out and inspecting them. If you notice play or roughness when working the bearing, send them in for rebuilding.”
 
I have a 1977 Ford with mechanical flat tappet cam from the factory. Its a stock car and runs great. I adjust the lash once every 3 years, no other problems. You just need to adjust it on hot engine.
 
Miszny said:
I have a 1977 Ford with mechanical flat tappet cam from the factory. Its a stock car and runs great. I adjust the lash once every 3 years, no other problems. You just need to adjust it on hot engine.
Click to expand...

(facepalm)

solid flat tappet and solid roller are not the same...flat tappet lifters don't have a roller wheel and axle which absorbs the brunt of the force imparted on the lifter during actuation.
 
txstang84 said:
That's interesting, I can't think of an older anything that ran solid rollers...solid flat tappet, yes, even into the 70s but adjustment of flat tapped solids vs rebuilding of the solid roller lifters are two different things. I'll try to find the article where I read it and post back.
Click to expand...

Well not solid rollers. They did run solid cams as we both know. But I guess my point was more in the "whats the difference". Solid rollers have what, rollers on them. That's the only difference. With proper care and oiling. I see no reason to "rebuild" or "replace" them. If anything, a roller should last longer than the metal/metal of a flat tappet. I've never heard of this problem with hydraulic rollers. And they are under constant pressure because of the hydraulic lash.

I just read your article. And I see they mention exactly what I was about to post. Proper care and oiling is essential to the life. I think it's more to do with how "serious" these cams are. The small solid rollers, are considered large for hydraulic flat, and medium/large for hydraulic roller. Because of the lift, duration, overlap, etc inherent to these cams. Upkeep and inspection of the lifters is more intense. Like any "race" designed part put into a street engine. I would never hesitate to run solid roller on a street car. Knowing my own penchant for upkeep, maintenance, etc.

Miszny said:
Thanks, now this helps me out a lot!
I see that I had wrong understaning of duration. My idea was to keep the valves open as long as possible to get more air/fuel mix in with my limited lift.
My guess is that flow drops over what the flowchart does not show... Just a guess.
I initially used 6800 limter, perhaps I should go back to it. I put 6400 to keep things live longer. I have forged rods and pistions so perhaps im overreacting.
Until now I had failures every single year this one included. I just recently blew up my converter and rebuilt the whole transmission. This was also a lesson about how important converter is. Getting the right one felt like adding 50hp or more. I did not expect this.

The goal of my changes is to optimize what is in there by putting best matching cam I can get for this combo with minimal changes to everything else. I hope I will end up with new cam, lifters, pushrods and timing set only. If I keep lift under 550 I can also keep my valve springs that I got new last year. I had no problems reving to 6800 with them.

If I wanted to get only power I would go with some forced induction, but parts avilability makes me want to keep it reasonable. The car is pretty quick already, just need more optimized and reliable.

About tires, I was using Hoosier 295/60/15 Quick Time DOT tires, but yes I recently got MT drag radials in almost identical size. Its a 29" tire. Hoosiers have great traction but dont last too long... Hope MT will do better about it but will probably be much heavier. I could not belive how light my wheels were with Hoosiers.

I will dyno the car before changes are made to see whats what after.

The link you gave is for small block cam but I see what you mean.

If I were to do custom grind that has 3000-6500 power band and lift up to 550 how would you spec it out?

I almost got this cam:
21-232-4(Single Bolt) - Xtreme Energy™ Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts

Then roller idea came to mind and I decidet to wait it out and ask people that know better.
Click to expand...

The biggest thing to remember when making a cam change is that it will change your DCR - dynamic compression ratio - the bigger the cam, the more overlap, the less cylinder pressure you build. You then have to up the compression to compensate for those changes. More duration will raise your RPM. Smaller cam is the opposite, it will increase DCR. Something to keep in mind.

As for custom grind. I would call the cam guys. I'd start with hughes. Tell them exactly what you got and what you want. See what they say.
 
The issue is that lash pounds the needle bearings in the roller lifters, they go flat/out of round, then skid, then everything rapidly goes to Hell after that. Improved pressure oiling lifters and bushing lifters are methods to counter this. This isn't a maximum kill effort, so there's not going to be the spring pressures that accelerate these issues, but it's still something to concern yourself with.

If you switch to a roller cam, you're going to need new valve springs. Roller lifters are heavy and use aggressive lobes(otherwise what's the point?) and will need serious springs to control valve motion. Failure to control the valve train properly will rapidly blow everything up. The Chrysler stuff has a nice .904 tappet, we can use pretty decent flat tappet cams.

The Comp MM lobes in the 240 degree range have .550'ish lift with the 1:5 rocker, but if you currently have 1.6 ratio, going to 1.5 is a step backwards.

Roller lifters and cam profiles will make more power, certainly, the question, as always, is the power worth what you're willing to pay for it? S/F.....Ken M
 
EchoSixMike said:
The issue is that lash pounds the needle bearings in the roller lifters, they go flat/out of round, then skid, then everything rapidly goes to Hell after that. Improved pressure oiling lifters and bushing lifters are methods to counter this. This isn't a maximum kill effort, so there's not going to be the spring pressures that accelerate these issues, but it's still something to concern yourself with.

If you switch to a roller cam, you're going to need new valve springs. Roller lifters are heavy and use aggressive lobes(otherwise what's the point?) and will need serious springs to control valve motion. Failure to control the valve train properly will rapidly blow everything up. The Chrysler stuff has a nice .904 tappet, we can use pretty decent flat tappet cams.

The Comp MM lobes in the 240 degree range have .550'ish lift with the 1:5 rocker, but if you currently have 1.6 ratio, going to 1.5 is a step backwards.

Roller lifters and cam profiles will make more power, certainly, the question, as always, is the power worth what you're willing to pay for it? S/F.....Ken M
Click to expand...

Yes, I am worried about such failure too. I was looking at Isky rollers with bushings...
Solid flat tappet seems like a simple upgrade in my case, also cheap. The solid cam I mentioned in earlier posts seems like perfect fit.
I have twp sets of roller rockers so swapping 1.6 with 1.5 is no big deal, if I get same lift with 1.5 and bigger cam as with 1.6 and smaller cam what is the difference?

My understanding with valve springs was that its mostly lift related. If my current setup has 544 lift and works well, does it really mean that more agressive lobes on solid roller will make my springs no good?
Ofcourse if it turns out I need to change springs, I can live with it, also I can do it with heads on the engine so not a problem.
Just want to make this cam swap right and enjoy it :)

I am also curious what power gains I can expect. Some guys I talked to say 50-60hp which seems like a lot.
I remember that going to solid flat tappet in 383 added over 30hp extra. At first we tried to play with putting solid lifters on hydraulic cam (we had used parts and cam was not so great anymore) and it gave over 20hp gain. Then we swapped with new cam and set of lifters, broke them in and were really happy with end result, the 383 made just a bit over 450hp which felt like a good result. Also it ran much nicer with solid setup. Idle sounded much better.

I will see what cam manufacturers tell me and post some info here. I only talked to Comp at this point. Will see what Isky, Hughes, Lunati and others say.
 
After I get the cam sorted, which lifters do you guys think are best?

It seems to be the weakest element of the whole project...
 
Miszny said:
Installed height is 1.880 and I am good up to .570 as far as I remember.
Click to expand...
Something doesn't seem quite right. Check your paperwork from Koffel for retainer to seal clearance. I would be running a cam at a little over .600" lift with a head that is flowing 272 @ .550. I'm working on a set of 346 heads with stock length valves that are flowing 274 @ .500, 295 @ .600, 303 @ .700 and they have .870" retainer to seal clearance. If you have the retainer to seal clearance go to at least a .600" net lift cam to use the full ability of your heads.
 
IQ52 said:
Something doesn't seem quite right. Check your paperwork from Koffel for retainer to seal clearance. I would be running a cam at a little over .600" lift with a head that is flowing 272 @ .550. I'm working on a set of 346 heads with stock length valves that are flowing 274 @ .500, 295 @ .600, 303 @ .700 and they have .870" retainer to seal clearance. If you have the retainer to seal clearance go to at least a .600" net lift cam to use the full ability of your heads.
Click to expand...

I will check that once I get back home. Dont have access to the paperwork but will have next week.
Some stuff I remember like installed height, its possible its 870 as well. Will know soon. Thank you for poiting it out.

Also I am curious what springs did You use witch such lift and stock guides? Guides were not cut down and narrowed?
 
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