Flat tappet to solid roller...

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I talked to Hughes today about the cam I should get.
They suggested flat tappet cam with 1.6:1 rockers that I have and said that unsually cam manufacturers dont take advantage of Mopar lifter size that is bigger and buying solid roller will do nothing but drain my wallet with minimal if any effect on power...
They said that if I want to spend more money they can get me roller, but they dont recommend it.

Suggested cams were:
1.
Hughes Engines
2.
Hughes Engines

Also EDM type of lifters were suggested to extend life of both cam and lifters.

Now I am a bit confused...
 
Well Hughes isn't confused. Much.

If you read their dyno tests, I don't see where they test a roller against their flat tappet cams. And in even in this test they state that to get "gobs" of torque they went to their roller camshaft.
#6---Big Block Stroker 6 Pak Dyno Test (7279)

I do think the cam duration and lifts they gave you are better choices for your engine than I've seen listed.
 
IQ52 said:
Well Hughes isn't confused. Much.

If you read their dyno tests, I don't see where they test a roller against their flat tappet cams. And in even in this test they state that to get "gobs" of torque they went to their roller camshaft.
#6---Big Block Stroker 6 Pak Dyno Test (7279)

I do think the cam duration and lifts they gave you are better choices for your engine than I've seen listed.
Click to expand...

You were right about the maximum lift. I found photo of the flowchart in my phone.
It shows retainer to seal cl. 050 at .800 and flow numbers are show up to .600 lift.
Values are actually 268,11 at .500 and 277,13 at .600 lift.

I dont understand why when I was asking them about roller they did not want to discuss this further and recommended to go with solid flat tappet. Perhaps my engine wont gain much for practically double the money. I explained that I wanted "final type" of cam/lifters combo and he said that roller is not needed here and wont give much.

I really like the bigger cam they recommended.

Or I just some guy from Eastern Europe calling with ideas kind of treatment ;-)

STL4650BS.jpg
 
They told you the same thing they tell everyone else.........that their flat tappet cams are almost good as a roller cam. Take a look at a flat tappet lobe and a roller lobe and you know it cannot be true. It makes them feel good to say it I guess.
 
IQ52 said:
They told you the same thing they tell everyone else.........that their flat tappet cams are almost good as a roller cam. Take a look at a flat tappet lobe and a roller lobe and you know it cannot be true. It makes them feel good to say it I guess.
Click to expand...

LOL... and called other cams "chevy type" of cams that dont take advantage of Mopar engineering.
Any comments by hughes solid flat tappet owners? :)
I sure like their confidence, what seems wierd is that they just tell you not to buy their top product which seems really wierd.
 
Miszny said:
I will check that once I get back home. Dont have access to the paperwork but will have next week.
Some stuff I remember like installed height, its possible its 870 as well. Will know soon. Thank you for poiting it out.

Also I am curious what springs did You use witch such lift and stock guides? Guides were not cut down and narrowed?
Click to expand...


Not to butt in here, but MRL has a pressure lubed solid roller lifter that`s supposed to have more reliability than some of the others. I have a set in my 505 but not much run time yet. my head flow is 352 @.600 lift, w/ a compcams 292 extreme solid roller, w/ 1/6 rockers, and have a 3500 hughs convertor that seems awful loose for 3500. the point is that it seems awful mushy down low. haven`t stuck my foot in it yet. If you are buying a set of rear tires every summer, you "are doing some hard driving! Tell us more about the bite comparison between the mt`s and the hoosiers when you get time. The cam you showed here is almost identicle to the 292 extreme solid roller, w/ the exception that MY DURATION IS 254-260. I thot this cam would be a pussycat in the 505, but doesn`t seem that way so far. sorry about buttin in ---------bob
 
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famous bob said:
Not to butt in here, but MRL has a pressure lubed solid roller lifter that`s supposed to have more reliability than some of the others. I have a set in my 505 but not much run time yet. my head flow is 352 @.600 lift, w/ a compcams 292 extreme solid roller, w/ 1/6 rockers, and have a 3500 hughs convertor that seems awful loose for 3500. the point is that it seems awful mushy down low. haven`t stuck my foot in it yet. If you are buying a set of rear tires every summer, you "are doing some hard driving! Tell us more about the bite comparison between the mt`s and the hoosiers when you get time. The cam you showed here is almost identicle to the 292 extreme solid roller, w/ the exception that MY DURATION IS 254-260. I thot this cam would be a pussycat in the 505, but doesn`t seem that way so far. sorry about buttin in ---------bob
Click to expand...

I try to report all I experience here so people can learn on my mistakes and experiences. I will post info on difference between Hoosiers and MTs for sure.
For me balance between traction and wear time is important because after all taxes and shipping a set is like 900$ so price is allost doubled.

Right now I have 295/50/15 Cooper tires and they smoke like crazy but have much more traction then I expected from such tire.
 
About cams...

It seems that these two are good choice:
Lunati:
Voodoo Solid Roller Cam & Lifter Kit - Chrysler 361-440 273/279 - Lunati Power

No less then 110 lsa with big block rollers from them.

Comp:
23-702-9(Three Bolt) - Xtreme Energy™ Street Mechanical Roller Camshafts

Lunati is 120$ less for a set of cam and liters...

In both cases I think I can use my pushrods that are a bit too long now (2 threads showing) with 1.88 seat height vs 1.83 seat height on Lunati and 1.79 on Comp.

Only extra expense would be timing set.

Also I have a question on beehive springs.
Comp makes a set that seems to fit perfectly on what I have now. I could just swap springs on the engine.
This is what I wanted to use:
COMP Cams 26055-16 : Beehive Valve Spring Universal | JEGS

Is it a good idea or should I take the heads off and give them to machining shop to fit standard double springs?

I would like to avoid taking the heads off if possible because I need to pull the motor to do it.
 
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Ok I see that I can forget about beehive springs I guess... The rate on springs recommended for both these cams is much higher.

Will have lots of work this winter I guess ;-)
 
Beehives are for flat tappets and hydraulic roller cams; although there's a dual spring beehive in the works from Comp/PAC or somebody, haven't seen one in real life.

I can say that if you want to go bushing roller lifter, the Isky bushing lifters (EZ roll MAX) are very nice, although sizing seems on the small end. But you're talking $1200+. I would compare to Morel, which tends to be on the upper range of sizing. I think these are excessive to your stated goals. S/F....Ken M
 
famous bob said:
Not to butt in here, but MRL has a pressure lubed solid roller lifter that`s supposed to have more reliability than some of the others. I have a set in my 505 but not much run time yet. my head flow is 352 @.600 lift, w/ a compcams 292 extreme solid roller, w/ 1/6 rockers, and have a 3500 hughs convertor that seems awful loose for 3500. the point is that it seems awful mushy down low. haven`t stuck my foot in it yet. If you are buying a set of rear tires every summer, you "are doing some hard driving! Tell us more about the bite comparison between the mt`s and the hoosiers when you get time. The cam you showed here is almost identicle to the 292 extreme solid roller, w/ the exception that MY DURATION IS 254-260. I thot this cam would be a pussycat in the 505, but doesn`t seem that way so far. sorry about buttin in ---------bob
Click to expand...
The XR292R was an interesting cam on the street. I had it in a 9.5:1 compression 451 stroker with ported 452 iron heads. The engine dyno'd at 588 LB-FT and 621 HP.

I too am running Mike's lifters, in a 572ci hemi and a 426ci small block. The 426 SB is driven almost every day and destroyed it's first Hellcat Challenger a few weeks back.
 
IQ52 said:
The XR292R was an interesting cam on the street. I had it in a 9.5:1 compression 451 stroker with ported 452 iron heads. The engine dyno'd at 588 LB-FT and 621 HP.

I too am running Mike's lifters, in a 572ci hemi and a 426ci small block. The 426 SB is driven almost every day and destroyed it's first Hellcat Challenger a few weeks back.
Click to expand...

Wow 621 is a lot. I did not plan to go that far, but why not ;-)
 
I talked to Lunati for over an hour discussing all the details and this is what they came up with and cure to my needs:

Hydraulic roller camshaft:
Voodoo Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Cam - Chrysler 361-440 294/302 - Lunati Power
  • Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 294/302
  • Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 243/251
  • Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .560/.565
  • LSA/ICL: 110/106
  • Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
  • RPM Range: 2600-6600

I would be at .600 lift with 1.6 rockers with it.

Solid roller lifters:
Vertical Bar Solid Roller Lifters - Chrysler V8 B 383 - 440 (Set Of 16) - Lunati Power
  • Application: Chrysler V8 B 383 - 440
  • Diameter: .903"
  • Weight: 247g
  • Seat Height: 1.83"
  • Quantity: 16

Seat height of these lifters alows me to reuse my pushrods.

Two choices of beehive springs:
1: .600" Lift Beehive Spring - 1.445" O.D., 1.210" Coil Bind, 370 Lbs./In. Rate (Qty 16) - Lunati Power
  • Type: .600" Lift Ovate Beehive Valve Spring
  • O.D. Big End: 1.445"
  • I.D. Big End: 1.000"
  • O.D. Small End: 1.095"
  • I.D. Small End: 0.650"
  • Coil Bind: 1.210"
  • Seat Load: 155@1.880"
  • Open Load: 377@1.280"
  • Rate (lbs/in): 370

2: .700" Lift Beehive Spring - 1.445" O.D., 1.220" Coil Bind, 408 Lbs./In. Rate (Set of 16) - Lunati Power
  • Type: .700" Lift Ovate Beehive Valve Spring
  • O.D. Big End: 1.445"
  • I.D. Big End: 0.990"
  • O.D. Small End: 1.186"
  • I.D. Small End: 0.731"
  • Coil Bind: 1.220"
  • Seat Load: 160@1.950"
  • Open Load: 425@1.300"
  • Rate (lbs/in): 408


They said that if I'm not willing to rev it out and shift at aroud 6600 and limit revs to 6800 this combo will work well and the softer spring will do the job given weight reduction thanks to solid lifters, lighter retainers etc.
With harder seat and my 1.880" install height the seat load seemed high.

Also many of their customers swapper hydraulic lifters for solid ones with good hp increase.
Due to less agresive lobes suggestion was that actually such combo will live longer.

How about that?
 
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OK I did some cost check of all these setups and it all comes up to the simmilar money, only flat tappet is around 400$ cheaper.

1. Solid roller with heads machining for dual springs, head gaskets and all that will be around 1150$

2. Mix of hydraulic and solid with beehive springs, will be about 1050$

3. Solid flat tappet from Hughes will be around 700$

In case of option 2 and 3 heads stay on the engine and I need to swap: cam, lifters, timing set, springs and retainers.

With option 1 I also need to take the heads off for machining so extra cost is head gaskets (i have extra set of bolts) but get to use cheaper double springs, can keep my retainers and buy cam as a set which is cheaper.
Also this scenario seems to be the safest and future proof option. Swapping heads with something more serious in the future will be less painful.

Any suggestions?
 
Is it possible that Koffel has already machined your heads for dual springs? To me the solid rollers on the hydraulic roller cam is a viable solution. Did Lunati suggest a valve lash for the solid rollers on hydraulic roller cam?
 
IQ52 said:
Is it possible that Koffel has already machined your heads for dual springs? To me the solid rollers on the hydraulic roller cam is a viable solution. Did Lunati suggest a valve lash for the solid rollers on hydraulic roller cam?
Click to expand...

They suggested very small cold lash like 8 thousands of an inch.
 
Miszny said:
They suggested very small cold lash like 8 thousands of an inch.
Click to expand...
Okay, with an iron head you can go that big if they say so. If it was with an aluminum head, me personally, I'd be down to .002"-.003" cold lash with solid rollers on a hydraulic roller cam.
 
IQ52 said:
Okay, with an iron head you can go that big if they say so. If it was with an aluminum head, me personally, I'd be down to .002"-.003" cold lash with solid rollers on a hydraulic roller cam.
Click to expand...

Yes iron head was a reason for this big cold lash, but I am willing to go the right way with this and will take the heads off the engine. I will just jack it up so I have better access to head bolts and do it.
Problem is that it really is tight on the passenger side. Header is about 1/2" from the inner fender...
This is the price of having big block in a body.

Koffel for sure did not touch the valve guides for sure. I already swapped springs once.
 
EchoSixMike said:
Beehives are for flat tappets and hydraulic roller cams; although there's a dual spring beehive in the works from Comp/PAC or somebody, haven't seen one in real life.

I can say that if you want to go bushing roller lifter, the Isky bushing lifters (EZ roll MAX) are very nice, although sizing seems on the small end. But you're talking $1200+. I would compare to Morel, which tends to be on the upper range of sizing. I think these are excessive to your stated goals. S/F....Ken M
Click to expand...

There are also conical springs that have rates in the area of harder springs recommended for Comp solid cam that could be ok for me.

PAC makes beehive springs that would fit my heads and should do whats needed, but everybody says its a bad idea with solid roller and these, so heads off engine it is. It really sucks.

Beehive Single Springs - - PAC-1255X - PAC Racing Springs

Beehive Single Springs - - PAC-1232X - PAC Racing Springs
 
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The comp is a street roller you dont need 240+ on the seat ,the lunati is hydro same applys.If you talk to some builders here I think you can probably go 140 seat with around 400 nose and be fine.Dont be scared.
 
joec said:
The comp is a street roller you dont need 240+ on the seat ,the lunati is hydro same applys.If you talk to some builders here I think you can probably go 140 seat with around 400 nose and be fine.Dont be scared.
Click to expand...

Well, where I live there is nobody experienced to talk to about this so I have a problem and need to bother all you guys ;-)

I wanted to get this cam/lifters set:
Voodoo Solid Roller Cam & Lifter Kit - Chrysler 361-440 273/279 - Lunati Power
  • Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 243/249
  • Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .578/.585
  • LSA/ICL: 110/106
  • Valve Lash (Int/Exh): .016/.016
  • RPM Range: 2800-6800
These springs:
.700" Lift Beehive Spring - 1.445" O.D., 1.220" Coil Bind, 408 Lbs./In. Rate (Set of 16) - Lunati Power
  • Seat Load: 165@1.880"
  • Open Load: 425@1.300"
With this type of spring i suppose 6600 rpm would be fine, but double springs gives extra safety. With 1.5 rockers taking the lash out this cam is not so big.
 
There really isn't any "safety" with dual or triple springs; given they normally fail under high load and high rpm, any spring breakage is going to cause everything to go smash. S/F....Ken M
 
You will be fine with that spring If your springs are set at 1.880 now you can even shim them .030 to .060 and be fine.
 
Any one you posted will work yes the crower is ok.I dont see the need for 1.6 on the street with them you get back to spring issues.Dont worry about the lash.
 
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