Fresh 360 Valve Train Noise.....

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540slant6

540slant6

Mopar SB Ripper
Joined
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Berryville, VA
Alright gents, I bought a fresh 360 rebuilt here from another FABO member. Approximately 10:1 compression with J heads and .484 cam. I'm running a brawler 670 CFM carb.

Motor was running great and STRONG but has now developed some sort of valve train noise or clatter that starts around 2,000 rpm. It is down on power has never lost any oil pressure? Still runs just fine with no smoking or anything???

Maybe I have some dead lifters or wiped the cam? Pulled a valve cover and everything appears to be in tact??? I'll try and post some pics later but any ideas would be great.

Thanks

Nick
 
540slant6 said:
Alright gents, I bought a fresh 360 rebuilt here from another FABO member. Approximately 10:1 compression with J heads and .484 cam. I'm running a brawler 670 CFM carb.

Motor was running great and STRONG but has now developed some sort of valve train noise or clatter that starts around 2,000 rpm. It is down on power has never lost any oil pressure? Still runs just fine with no smoking or anything???

Maybe I have some dead lifters or wiped the cam? Pulled a valve cover and everything appears to be in tact??? I'll try and post some pics later but any ideas would be great.

Thanks

Nick
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Oh yeah, I'm running all stock hydraulic valve gear with stiffer valve springs.
 
What oil is being used? Brand, type, weight. (I would expect you know about the ZDDP needs....) Drain the oil and cut open the filter and look for fine particles.
 
nm9stheham said:
What oil is being used? Brand, type, weight. (I would expect you know about the ZDDP needs....) Drain the oil and cut open the filter and look for fine particles.
Click to expand...
Typical non synthetic 40w by Castrol.....assuming I may need to use some of that high zinc mix oil? Hopefully not too late
 
You need to use the high zinc, most importantly for break in. 65'
 
Like a Castrol GTX 10W40? If you could be more specific on the Castrol type and weight, we could be sure.

Look on the back of the bottle at the circular symbol, and see if it has the letters API-SM or API-SN in it. These SM and SN oils have had the ZDDP content reduced down to the 800-900 PPM range, and flat tappet cams with any sort of heavy springs are going to need the older ZDDP levels of 1200-1300 ppm minimum to preserve the lifters, or have an additive used.
 
nm9stheham said:
Like a Castrol GTX 10W40? If you could be more specific on the Castrol type and weight, we could be sure.

Look on the back of the bottle at the circular symbol, and see if it has the letters API-SM or API-SN in it. These SM and SN oils have had the ZDDP content reduced down to the 800-900 PPM range, and flat tappet cams with any sort of heavy springs are going to need the older ZDDP levels of 1200-1300 ppm minimum to preserve the lifters, or have an additive used.
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Awesome, really good input. Going to Autozone to get some high zinc and change the oil. Hoping for the best!
 
Potentially, you need to confirm that you don't have a bad cam lobe. The zinc provides proper lubrication for cam/lifter break in. The other thing is that the stock stamped rockers can bend/deflect with high valve spring pressure. 65'
 
I would pull both valve covers, and check each rocker arm for slop/lifter pre load. Just to start.
 
540slant6 said:
Awesome, really good input. Going to Autozone to get some high zinc and change the oil. Hoping for the best!
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OK; first drain the oil and look for fine metal particles in it and inside the filter; you'll have to cut the filter case open with a sharp knife. If some lobes/lifters have been damaged, putting in high zinc oil after the fact is like closing the barn door after the horse is gone....too late. It will just get worse and is already at the point of needing replacement and an engine cleanup.

As said above: Look for any loose-sloppy pushrods.... you will have to turn the engine over 2 times and stop each 90 degrees to make sure they are all properly checked.

You could also have some collapsed lifters. The same test is done to see if that shows up.
 
540slant6 said:
Awesome, really good input. Going to Autozone to get some high zinc and change the oil. Hoping for the best!
Click to expand...

I would look at the oil and filter first. You might not need oil right now.

Big thing is diagnose it first, then form a plan of attack.

Drain the oil into a drain pan, if you have a decent magnet maybe put that in the bottom before you drain the oil and if there are metal shavings they might be drawn to the magnet. Then cut open the filter and inspect.
 
At the age these “parts” we are using are getting, (40-50 year old heads and blocks, etc) in my humble opinion, it is imperative to check valve train geometry and lifter preload. The lifter preload is set by the pushrod length.

.030 to .050 off the heads plus .010-.030 off the deck over the years can drastically change pushrod length needs.

We need more information.

How long did it run fine?

How long after first start did it start making this noise?

Was cam lube and assembly lube still inside the engine on first start?

Have you changed the break in oil yet?

Hopefully it’s nothing major and you can get back to enjoying your car. Eric
 
that's what my engine did/sounded like when my 4 year-old 223* cam died; just after a fresh oil change. Sure enough the oil I had used had just become a low-zinc oil. By the time I got the covers off, it was obvious.
I upgraded to a 230*, which after all was said and done, cost me about a G.
 
FYI, Had a 340 with stiff valve springs and stock rockers. Push rod wore a rocker out and went thru the rocker. Just a thought
 
Darter6 said:
FYI, Had a 340 with stiff valve springs and stock rockers. Push rod wore a rocker out and went thru the rocker. Just a thought
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Changing oil now and smells like gas.....wonder if my holley was leaking when not running and diluting oil....stay tunes

20190127_124222.jpg
 
It could leak and drain down past the rings after each stop. Or a mechanical fuel pump can get a pin hole in a diaphragm and pump lots of fuel into the oil. Hope this catches it soon enough to avoid other damage. Bearings, rings and cylinders, cam and lifters.....

Once you examine the oil for shavings/particles, if it is clean, then put in new oil with the higher zinc levels and see what it does. (Or use the same oil and add 1/2 can of Rislone Oil Treatement or other additive to get the ZDDP levels up.)
 
Alright......prognosis is baaad. Silvery grey gunk on my magnetic oil pan plug. Changed oil and no real difference, I'm sure it ate the cam. Runs great but clatter still starts around 2000 rpm. I'll have to pull the intake and inspect further.

The motor has less than 500 miles on it, lesson learned I guess......

I appreciate all the help. Anyone ever change a cam and lifters while still sitting in a D100? Haha
 
540slant6 said:
Alright......prognosis is baaad. Silvery grey gunk on my magnetic oil pan plug. Changed oil and no real difference, I'm sure it ate the cam. Runs great but clatter still starts around 2000 rpm. I'll have to pull the intake and inspect further.

The motor has less than 500 miles on it, lesson learned I guess......

I appreciate all the help. Anyone ever change a cam and lifters while still sitting in a D100? Haha
Click to expand...

That's too bad. Shouldn't be too bad to do in the truck if you pull the radiator and maybe the grille if needed.
 
540slant6 said:
Alright......prognosis is baaad. Silvery grey gunk on my magnetic oil pan plug. Changed oil and no real difference, I'm sure it ate the cam. Runs great but clatter still starts around 2000 rpm. I'll have to pull the intake and inspect further.

The motor has less than 500 miles on it, lesson learned I guess......

I appreciate all the help. Anyone ever change a cam and lifters while still sitting in a D100? Haha
Click to expand...
Pull the valve covers first and start there. Check rockers and pushrods for tightness/“lash”
 
540slant6 said:
I appreciate all the help. Anyone ever change a cam and lifters while still sitting in a D100?
Click to expand...

That shouldn't be too bad, unless your 10 feet tall you'll need something to stand on probably.

Bummer on the discovery.
 
If indeed the engine is clattering, then check the oil filter as said. Then I'd:
  1. I'd do a compression check BEFORE anything else, to get a baseline of the cylinder conditions since the oil smelled of fuel. Worn lobes/lifters may effect these numbers.
  2. Check the pushrod tightness as described and re-examine the valvetrain where you can see it.
  3. Even if that is OK, you still could have the start to lobe wear and, with the use of what sounds like API SN oil with inadequate ZDDP, then IMHO the situation demands an inspection of the cam and lifters.
  4. Pull out the block coolant drain plug(s) to drain the block before pulling the intake, to keep the coolant out of the valley/crankcase.
 
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