furyus2
Well-Known Member
Has anyone bought one of those Summit front end alignment setups? Did it work well? Do i need those plates to turn the tires? I'm tired of paying $100 for someone to do it wrong.
Front end alignment at home
- Thread starter furyus2
- Start date
-
You need a different alignment shop. The big box tire stores with 18 year old's running the new machines can't help. I am leary of the new specs the machines have. Most new guys wouldn't know what to change if there was a pulling problem.
Frank Mopar
Well-Known Member
Plastic bags work great under the tires
furyus2
Well-Known Member
Any kit someone would suggest. I have 3 classics, and I've gone to a shop I've always used. They knocked a chunk out of my custom wood wheel. Then I took the Dart to them. Steered worse than when I took it in. Went to another shop with am old guy. Still steered like crap. Wandered all over. I set the toe with a tape measure, and gave it all the caster i could. Way more stable, but still needs work. Had the first shop do my 64 Sport Fury, and I noticed the inside of the tires are wearing. And yes, all these front suspensions were rebuilt. With all of this, I would rather do it myself. I just need good advice on a kit. And i really liked the idea of plastic under the tires. That alone saves $300.
I have a snap-on magnetic camber-caster gauge, a set of turn tables and a drive over scuff toe gauge and it works great, I do all my cars with it. As long as the floor is flat, that's all you need.
I used a digital Longacre kit for my Formula Vee, but I would still rather take the Valiant to a shop. Just tell them to set it up to your specs, not what the machine calls for. Also the machine will designate an acceptable "window". Tell the tech your acceptable window is the EXACT specs you give, ZERO deviation.
I do all of mine with old school bubble gauges and a trammel bar for the toe.I do have turn tables. Some guys use sheet metal greased in between. Also old baking pans for the base tin, helps with the excess grease from getting on the floor.
You did the right thing with dialing in as much positive caster as possible.Use your own specs for what suits you way of driving.
I too have the Longacre bubble gauge along with a rim adapter and a few other gauges that cost about $30 that work good too.
You did the right thing with dialing in as much positive caster as possible.Use your own specs for what suits you way of driving.
I too have the Longacre bubble gauge along with a rim adapter and a few other gauges that cost about $30 that work good too.
kiss
Well-Known Member
I can't answer to the home alignment kit, but you did mention wasting $100 at shops. Piece of advice when dealing with alignment shops. Try to find a more independent place, not some tire shop filled with 18 year olds that only know how to deal with computer specs (as someone else mentioned on here). Here's a pic of specs assuming you have stock or mostly stock front end suspension.
What they really need to do is set the ride height, align it, then take it for a drive for at least a few blocks
Put the car back on the rack and check again. It will most likely have moved. It takes a drive to settle after adjusting ride height.
I know it can be difficult to tell a shop what to do. The way I usually approach it is say you've been screwed over by a few shops not doing it right, and "im sure you can do it right, but would you mind driving and double-checking after?". They should be receptive to that (hopefully).
I will add that caster is key. With stock components I would shoot for as much as you can. That's why aftermarket UCAs are nice, you can get more caster out of them.
What they really need to do is set the ride height, align it, then take it for a drive for at least a few blocks
Put the car back on the rack and check again. It will most likely have moved. It takes a drive to settle after adjusting ride height.
I know it can be difficult to tell a shop what to do. The way I usually approach it is say you've been screwed over by a few shops not doing it right, and "im sure you can do it right, but would you mind driving and double-checking after?". They should be receptive to that (hopefully).
I will add that caster is key. With stock components I would shoot for as much as you can. That's why aftermarket UCAs are nice, you can get more caster out of them.
You didn't mention what was wrong. Tire wear? Pulling to one side or another? Too much neutral steer? Direction hunting? hard to turn at low speeds with manual steering?
furyus2
Well-Known Member
The biggest issue is as you put it, the cars seem to hunt, or wander. No one aligns their own car? My experience in life has been that whenever I have someone else do work for me, they always do it half assed. That's why I'm willing to learning to do alignments myself.
grimreaper
Cross Member
Get some stuff and do your own alignment. You will never think about taking a car to a shop again. I use an old Howe Racing bubble camber/caster gauge along with a rim adapter I made from a couple pieces of angle iron and a few bolts. I also made a toe in gauge but toe can be set by various simple methods. Turn plates can be fashioned from several things as well. A couple of linoleum floor tiles with salt betwen for each wheel, the plastic bags as mentioned, even layers of cardboard. I use two pieces of 1/8" sheet metal with grease between for each wheel but anything that will let the wheels turn 20 degrees in and out will work. Just remember if you raise the front wheels you need to raise the back wheels to keep the car at proper ride height. If you can get a level piece of concrete to put the car on alignment is pretty easy. Search the internet for DIY alignment and you will see many ideas. Some really good, some not so much.... It will take some time to get things right so don't expect to do an alignment in an hour. You will soon figure out the system that works well for you and have your car driving just like you want and be happy not to deal with the "experts" any longer.
(I also made a rim adapter for a friend and he uses a magnetic angle finder to determine camber and calculates his caster from camber at twenty degrees in and out in place af the bubble tool.)
(I also made a rim adapter for a friend and he uses a magnetic angle finder to determine camber and calculates his caster from camber at twenty degrees in and out in place af the bubble tool.)
Last edited:
Frnknsteen
Well-Known Member
I will add that caster is key. With stock components I would shoot for as much as you can. That's why aftermarket UCAs are nice, you can get more caster out of them.
I agree! Bring the above SKOSH chart to them and choose what driving style you want it set up for. I have my camber set at Max Perf level, with some extra caster due to the Moog Offset bushings I put in. I was surprised how much caster they got, and hindsight being 20/20, I probably don't need that much, but it drives well. Without the offset bushings, I've heard best you could expect for caster is 1.5 - 2 degrees.
First pic is what it was when I went in. Second pic is what it was when they were done. HUGE improvement in how it drives. It wandered all over the road on the way to the shop. Drove nice and true on the way home.
Reason it says Plymouth Belvedere at the bottom of the printouts is the spec sheet was set up by a previous tech who worked there that had a 67 Belvedere. I told them I wanted as much Caster as possible and .75 - 1 degree of negative camber. He used the old Belvedere specs to choose toe-in.
BigBlockMopar
BigBlockMember
Just use your smart phone.
The biggest issue to overcome with home alignment is, you must have an accurate way to measure caster. You can measure camber with a carpenter's level and toe with an old style wooden folding tape measure. You can even use a long enough stick to measure toe. I've done it, and done it correctly. Sometimes, you can find deals on a combination caster/camber gauge that measures both, that's what I would try to do.
Turn plates are a good idea, too, if you can afford them, or find them used somewhere. There's always a shop going out of business somewhere. Keep your eyes peeled and you might get lucky.
I bought a used but fantastic condition Hunter A-111 alignment machine years ago for 120 bucks. Plan was to move out here and do alignments on the side. Of course, as usual, we got in a tight, plus someone wanted it WAY more than I did and I got ten times what I paid for it. Had to let that go. Won't find another deal like that and it was a good machine, too.
Turn plates are a good idea, too, if you can afford them, or find them used somewhere. There's always a shop going out of business somewhere. Keep your eyes peeled and you might get lucky.
I bought a used but fantastic condition Hunter A-111 alignment machine years ago for 120 bucks. Plan was to move out here and do alignments on the side. Of course, as usual, we got in a tight, plus someone wanted it WAY more than I did and I got ten times what I paid for it. Had to let that go. Won't find another deal like that and it was a good machine, too.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Actually Rob that is not true. If you can measure CAMBER then you can measure/ calculate caster. My old Ammco caster/ camber gauge measures camber, and caster is computed from that by what amounts to a rotary slide rule on the instrument.
You measure camber with the wheels turned one way, 20* in, then measure camber again with wheels turned 20* out. You figure the DIFFERENCE in that reading and multiply X 1.5 That answer is your caster
But you still have to have the tool, right? That was my point. We had an OLD Bear mirror machine at the KMart Auto Center where I met Kitty years ago. It had the very caster/camber gauge you describe. It was archaic, but I liked it because it worked.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Well, no, you can MAKE a camber gauge as you pointed out. Once you have that you can "figger" caster
You can buy various kinds of digital levels at Lowe's / Home Dept etc. Biggest problem is either getting it "true" on the wheel or same on the hub
I use one of these SPC Performance FasTrax Camber Caster Gauges 91000 and a set of these Longacre Toe-In Plates 79501. You can get around using toe plates, but since I'm usually working by myself they make things easier.
I do have a set of turntables and slip plates for the rear (also keeps the car level with the turntables under the front wheels), but they're not absolutely necessary. If you have a nice smooth garage floor you can just use a bunch of dish soap under the tires. Alternatively, you can use plain steel or aluminum plates and put bearing grease between them so the top plate turns on the bottom. I've also seen teflon pads used with soap or grease. I picked up my turntables used from eBay, they weren't that expensive. Just have to keep your eye out for a good deal.
It takes some practice to get repeatable results but once you've got your system down it's not that hard at all. If I had to pay for a custom alignment every time I changed my suspension on one of my cars I'd go broke, buying the alignment stuff has already paid for itself. Not to mention I don't have to schedule an appointment, figure out how to drop my car off or sit around for a few hours to get it done.
I do have a set of turntables and slip plates for the rear (also keeps the car level with the turntables under the front wheels), but they're not absolutely necessary. If you have a nice smooth garage floor you can just use a bunch of dish soap under the tires. Alternatively, you can use plain steel or aluminum plates and put bearing grease between them so the top plate turns on the bottom. I've also seen teflon pads used with soap or grease. I picked up my turntables used from eBay, they weren't that expensive. Just have to keep your eye out for a good deal.
It takes some practice to get repeatable results but once you've got your system down it's not that hard at all. If I had to pay for a custom alignment every time I changed my suspension on one of my cars I'd go broke, buying the alignment stuff has already paid for itself. Not to mention I don't have to schedule an appointment, figure out how to drop my car off or sit around for a few hours to get it done.
furyus2
Well-Known Member
Ok. I will watch some youtube videos to get an idea of what to do. I do have a digital level. My questions are how do you know the gauge is on level to start? Do you level the car front to back, and side to side to start? How do you measure 20 degrees to get the caster? Thanks.
jbc426
Well-Known Member
I borrowed a buddies magnetic Longacre Camber/Caster gauge and aluminum toe in gauge. He didn't have the plates, so I bought two 2' x 1' pieces of sheet metal, cut them in half and smeared the smallest dap of synthetic disc brake grease between them. The work great on my garage floor, stay stuck together and are super easy to store. I had to remove the dust cap to fit the Longacre bubble gauge. It's a no brainer.
I'm going to invest in my own tools after seeing how easy the process really is. With 2 Mopars, it is an invaluable set of tools, and the price for everything is just over one alignment out here.
The first time through the alignment process took about an hour. I rechecked everything 3 times. The car tracks straight, doesn't pull and feels planted at speeds up to 130 mph. I do have the Hotchkis adjustable strut rods, which came in handy getting my caster to 5*. It feels very stable.
The gauge doesn't have to be perfect, remember that you're measuring two different locations and getting the difference basically. So if the gauge is a little crooked it actually comes out in the math (which is being done by the gauge). The car doesn't have to be level, you want it at ride height- so the alignment numbers you set are the ones that you're running down the road with. The thing you don't want to do is have the car sitting differently than it does on the road, like if you use turntables in the front and leave the rear on the ground. That raises the front a couple inches, and changes your caster reading. Some guys will do their alignments with a person or weight in the front seat for the same reason, it does change things a little. That's more of a race thing, for a daily like mine the weight balance changes a little when I haul stuff, have a passenger, go to the store, etc. The floor should be level, or mostly so. The 20* measurement comes from the gauge. The best way to measure it is with the turntables. The SPC gauge has a pointer on it, you can use just the gauge to get that reading. There's more room for error doing it that way, because you're just eyeballing the pointer. But it will totally still work, you might just want to check the final alignment a couple times to make sure you get similar readings each time.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
You want whatever the car is parked on to be level, aKA your garage/ driveway. Shim under tires if not. I actually block up and level the bed of my trailer
The 20* you can go cheap and just get a protractor and mark off that angle on the floor A couple of degrees error will not affect
grimreaper
Cross Member
I use 1/8" steel plates with grease between for my turnplates. I marked the top one with a mark with the wheels straight and marks that show 20 degrees in each direction using a protractor. The bottom one I just put a single mark and I ensure that the top plate mark for straight is aligned with the bottom plate mark to begin. You could just use tape marks on the floor established with a protractor if you prefer.
Last edited:
-
