Giving Up?

-
684door

684door

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
277
Reaction score
54
Location
Pittsburgh
I believe my 4 year trial by fire of changing over my automatic Dart to a Manual is close to over. For 4 yrs now I have run onto several problems. Severe chatter, which I solved with pinion angle shims and clatracs, to a last season experiencing reverse grinding and impossible 1st gear engagement. I switched to a RAM 3 finger this year. Same problem. Adjusted clutch to 60 thousands release. When warm same issue. All new linkage and rebuilt transmission. Could the stock bellhousing be doing this? Man I hate to do this but I may switch to an automatic. Please help.
 
684door said:
I believe my 4 year trial by fire of changing over my automatic Dart to a Manual is close to over. For 4 yrs now I have run onto several problems. Severe chatter, which I solved with pinion angle shims and clatracs, to a last season experiencing reverse grinding and impossible 1st gear engagement. I switched to a RAM 3 finger this year. Same problem. Adjusted clutch to 60 thousands release. When warm same issue. All new linkage and rebuilt transmission. Could the stock bellhousing be doing this? Man I hate to do this but I may switch to an automatic. Please help.
Click to expand...
this may be a somewhat stupid question, but did you check and make sure you have the right clutch side to flywheel? I know some brand clutches are flywheel side dependent and from experience, can cause exactly what you're experiencing. I made that mistake myself in my 78 w200 using an aftermarket clutch. The other question if not that, could be a bent or warped clutch fork. Also, im assuming you have the correct bellhousing based on the retainer bearing size?
 
Don't get mired in complications. Always point back to basics.

1...If necessary pull the clutch/ flywheel/ disk and put them in a press or have it done, jig it up and make CERTAIN that the PP is actually capable of releasing the clutch

2...Transmission shaft bind............Is the bell/ transmission shaft centered on the engine? Is the shaft binding in the pilot? Is the pilot hole DEEP ENOUGH? Is the input shaft BEND, or damaged in such a way that it would "drag" on the pilot bushing?

3...Clutch splines. Make CERTAIN you have the correct disk installed correct side out. Make CERTAIN the splines / collar are not interfering with the T/O bearing or the hub

4...Pivot / fork........Make sure the fork is not cracked / damaged/ bending under pressure. Have another person press the clutch and watch movement

5...Same above with linkage / Z bar. I've had TWO Z bars crack at the tube over the years, and so they "lose movement" when worked. Again..........two people and watch movement

6....Do a search "Oldmanmopar" He had some photos the difference in the 340/ non 340 cars pivot on the pedals assy. The 340 clutch pedal provides a bit more throw than "non" (at least in some years)

7....I just don't know about ram clutches. ARE THEY quality? Had member on here complaining that his fingers would press against the TO at high RPM and cause very high pedal pressure. This sounds like some sort of "Chineseoizationization" to me or at least wrong / poor quality assembly at the manufacturer
 
Did you do a run out check of the bell housing to the block? I know my dad and some other fold have fixed shifting issues by loosening the cover bolts and tapping the cover up. My dad's 833 would not shift into reverse until he did that, and now it ***** smooth.

By new linkage is that arms and tabs? Is the shifter adjusted correctly? What shifter?
 
Is the firewall flexing when you push in the clutch? I used a brace from the driver's side inside wheel well to the firewall (I think it was attached to one of the brake master cylinder bolts).
 
You have to put those transmissions into a forward gear before reverse. There are no syncros for reverse. They will always grind if you don’t.
 
""Adjusted clutch to 60 thousands release. When warm same issue.""

When warm same issue!! Does that mean when it's cold there's NO issue?? If so you're close to knowing what is causing the problem. Heat causes expansion, expansion takes up clearances!! If you adjusted the clutch when cold it will warm up and the clearance will change. Same goes for transmission/gear clearances.

Treblig
 
Treblig said:
""Adjusted clutch to 60 thousands release. When warm same issue.""

When warm same issue!! Does that mean when it's cold there's NO issue?? If so you're close to knowing what is causing the problem. Heat causes expansion, expansion takes up clearances!! If you adjusted the clutch when cold it will warm up and the clearance will change. Same goes for transmission/gear clearances.

Treblig
Click to expand...
duh!! we all missed it:BangHead:
 
Thanks for the responses guys. To answer some of the questions, I did check that the disk was in correctly, I do shift from 1st to Reverse to avoid grinding that way. I have checked the fork, zbar, and linkage for bending, cracked welds. I put a brand new pilot bearing in. The transmission falls right into place on install. I am just perplexed. I will check the firewall for twisting.
Dibbons, if you have a picture of the brace you created, please attach it. Thanks.

I tried to do the runout measurement but struggled to get the setup to work withh the engine in the car up on jackstands.
Should I try to adjust that clutch with it warm? What should I aim for measurement wise for release of disk and flywheel?
 
My shifter is a rebuilt Hurst. I adusted the linkage rpror to install to make it perfect
 
I have two competition plus shifters. One works like crap, cant get into first or reverse without struggling. The other one(in the car now) works perfectly. So I would not overlook the shifter.

Keep adjusting clutch play out and see what happens. Worse it could do is slip
 
684door said:
Thanks for the responses guys. To answer some of the questions, I did check that the disk was in correctly, I do shift from 1st to Reverse to avoid grinding that way. I have checked the fork, zbar, and linkage for bending, cracked welds. I put a brand new pilot bearing in. The transmission falls right into place on install. I am just perplexed. I will check the firewall for twisting.
Dibbons, if you have a picture of the brace you created, please attach it. Thanks.

I tried to do the runout measurement but struggled to get the setup to work withh the engine in the car up on jackstands.
Should I try to adjust that clutch with it warm? What should I aim for measurement wise for release of disk and flywheel?
Click to expand...


NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER!!!



Treblig
 
684door said:
My shifter is a rebuilt Hurst. I adusted the linkage rpror to install to make it perfect
Click to expand...
Ya might check it again. I just had to adjust mine for the 3rd time, finding all shift tabs/arms , nuts loosened up. I knew something was up when neutral side/side operation was real catchy, not lining up and really hard to get out of reverse.

Another prob. I experienced with these boxes was discovering a hairline crack around the input bearing retainer.
Just my .02 to add to the mix. Let us know what it is.
 
I will have to check my bearing retainer for cracks.
I am using Sta Lube 85-90. I got it from Brewers.
 
Hang on, do not take the trans down!

Firstly, you have .060 departure........... in how many places? .060 is more than adequate, IF it's .060 all around and the daymn thing stops spinning! The disc has to stop spinning! If the disc has stopped spinning the N-R shift cannot grind.If the disc has stopped spinning then the N to 1st pops right in.

Wait for it..... the reverse is also true,lol. If the disc does NOT stop spinning with the vehicle stopped, it HAS to grind into reverse and it HAS to to be impossible to shift into first. It cannot be otherwise.
SO
figure out why the disc is not coming to a stop, and your problems are over.

Try .080,lol.

IF you have had an align-bore or align-hone, OR, if the bell is not original to the engine, OR the bell hole is bigger than the retainer, OR the bell was at one time welded on, Or the bell is broken; THEN the bell has to be re-centered to the crankshaft.If you don't do that then it is possible that the crank centerline is not concentric with the trans centerline, and sooooo they end up at an angle to eachother, and the disc drags in at least two places; one on the backside and one on the front side. Soooo you can have .060 in ONE place and ZERO in another, on the one side, and 180* later the same on the otherside, for an average of ZERO,lol.
It is also possible for the input shaft to be dragging in the pilot bushing; or to be jammed into the back of the crank.
SO
figure out why the disc is not coming to a stop, and your problems are over.
 
Last edited:
684door said:
I believe my 4 year trial by fire of changing over my automatic Dart to a Manual is close to over. For 4 yrs now I have run onto several problems. Severe chatter, which I solved with pinion angle shims and clatracs, to a last season experiencing reverse grinding and impossible 1st gear engagement. I switched to a RAM 3 finger this year. Same problem. Adjusted clutch to 60 thousands release. When warm same issue. All new linkage and rebuilt transmission. Could the stock bellhousing be doing this? Man I hate to do this but I may switch to an automatic. Please help.
Click to expand...

When I switched over I remember having issues with the pivot fork bracket bending and cracking when I installed a Hayes street strip clutch. I also didn't have enough fork rod adjustment and had to weld some all thread to extend it. I started with a lakewood bell housing and no matter what...the bracket would bend and crack. So I switched to a centerforce dual friction and had the same issue till I made my own bracket, first I made one identical to the stock dimension...no enough fork travel and hit the bell housing before good engagement...so I made another about maybe 3/8 taller, all out of 1/4 steel, bam...it worked.

Nothing works like it should most of the time when it didn't come that way to begin with.

Chatter must mean wheel hop, you need a cut n roll to relocate the spring perches correctly in order to set the pinion to driveline angle, shims help but might not be enough .

I run the 4*shims, still have a 0 angle, you want more down, 3-6 degrees they say.
Ss springs were the real culprit, I didn't have long enough rear shocks and that bound the rear allowing it to do the boogaloo with the driveline.

Key points... fork rod length, pivot bracket strength and height , longer shocks in the rear, align the shifter and tighten tabs on cover.... Set the clutch fork to zero and then back half a turn.
 
Thanks MOPAROFFICIAL. I pulled my fork and fork pivot yesterday. They are straight and not bent. I like your idea moving the hole up 3/8th of an inch. That would give me more adjustment. Thinking of making a spacer to extend that pivot.

Question: When you said zero the fork and then back off 1/2 turn, I assume you mean run the throwout bearing up till it touches the clutch fingers and then back off 1/2 turn. Am I understanding that right? I will try anything at this point.
Thanks
 
684door said:
My shifter is a rebuilt Hurst. I adusted the linkage rpror to install to make it perfect
Click to expand...
Will it "eventually" go into 1st?
Does it feel like it does not go far enough into 1st when shifting?
Does that shifter have stop adjustments?
I think I'd get under there and try setting neutral again.
Maybe have someone run it slowly through the 1-2 shift while you watch it and see/feel if the shifter is dragging another lever for some reason.
I would think .060" is plenty departure unless the disc has a fat spot or the plate is grabbing early on a section.
 
684door said:
Thanks MOPAROFFICIAL. I pulled my fork and fork pivot yesterday. They are straight and not bent. I like your idea moving the hole up 3/8th of an inch. That would give me more adjustment. Thinking of making a spacer to extend that pivot.

Question: When you said zero the fork and then back off 1/2 turn, I assume you mean run the throwout bearing up till it touches the clutch fingers and then back off 1/2 turn. Am I understanding that right? I will try anything at this point.
Thanks
Click to expand...
Extending is what I meant when I said "3/8 taller"
Yes, adjust the fork/throw out bearing till finger contact then back half a turn.
Some people like the pedal to engage when barely off the floor, others want it mid throw... I like mid throw/half peddle.

At the moment my Fork is sometimes scraping the top of my TTI headers, I've install the spring that attaches to the bellhousing a little higher up and it works normal driving so far. I might just cut 2" from the eye 80% the way from the top edge, bend it closed and weld it up to fix that. Getting tired of messin with it.
 
With engine running, pull it into second gear first, THEN go for 1st, or reverse. My mentor taught my that, and it seems to work for most folks. Something about spinning all the gears to mesh. Try it. cheers.
 
Lets see, off the top o my head (and I think 67 Dart 273 mentioned this) The pilot bearing, when you swapped from auto to manual did you address this issue? if the engine had an automatic crank, the pilot hole would need to be drilled and drilled correctly, then a pilot bushing would need to be installed. If this was not done correctly, the input shaft could be constantly spinning or binding in the hole in the back of the crank. If the pilot hole was not drilled, the only other thing that could have been done is swapping the auto crank for a manual trans crank with the pilot hole drilled from the factory. Not sure if this issue was addressed, it may be overlooked if a transmission installer didn't know about it. there are things about these cars that are just the way it is, just cause its old don't mean its easy to work on :)
 
I did know about the install of the bearing instead of the bushing. I installed it myself. Thanks for the suggestions. Many moving parts and all could be suspect. Ha ha ha
 
What about the depth? is the input shaft jammed against the crank? I would drop the inspection cover, have someone press the clutch, and see if the clutch disc is freed up from the pressure plate/flywheel, then see if the input shaft spins. with the engine not running of course.
 
Good idea spinning input. I will check that but I believe I have enough crank clearance
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top