Great writeup on Dynamic Compression

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Ivoryk3ys78

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I came across this a while back and have read it several times. I think it is a realyl good article. It makes a lot of sense to me and has helped me understand Intake valve closing and rpm range etc a lot better.

Why dynamic compression ratio is nearly useless | Matrix Garage

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For years people have relied on the term dynamic compression ratio to explain somethign much more complex than it can explain.

More on DCR can be found here.
Compression ratio - Wikipedia


In short though DCR measures the volume of the the cylinder when all valves have closed (which happens when the piston is part way up the cylinder) and compares it against the volume in the combustion chamber at TDC.

There is a huge problem with this. For starters this is not a dynamic measurement so the name is very misleading. Dynamic means in motion. DCR is measured at a static point.
The theory is that as the piston pushes up it will push air back out the intake and or exhaust valves until they close. Therefore the remaining air in the cylinder will contain that volume and mass of air at atmospheric pressure. This only works at zero RPM. As RPM increases you have pressure waves and delayed response in pressure and direction of travel. As the piston speeds up the mass of air that stays in the cylinder changes. This is called volumetric efficency.
You may have noticed that I said mass but the term is volumetric. The volume of the cylinder is constantly changing so inside the motor you can't think in volume. You have to give that volume a fixed pressure then volume will be the same as mass.
Volumetric flow rate (VFR) and volumetric efficiency (VE) are generally calculated at atmospheric pressure. So if the motor is running at 80% VE then that means that the air going into the air filter at atmospheric pressure will be 80% the swept volume of the cylinder each time it takes in a new charge.

You can learn more about VE here.
Volumetric efficiency - Wikipedia


Let's go into a little more detail on actual dynamic cylinder filling.

I will start at the end of the exhaust stroke because it is important to the beginning of the intake stroke.
As the piston travels up the exhaust valve opens and the piston starts pushing the exhaust out. The motion of the air flowing out the exhaust creates a low pressure zone in the combustion chamber so while the exhaust valve is still open the intake valve opens. The air moving out the exhaust will start pulling air into the cylinder. If it's timed right the exhaust valve will close just as all the exhaust is expelled and before any fresh air and fuel gets pulled into the exhaust.

As the piston goes down it creates a low pressure zone because the air cannot fill the space as fast as the piston is dropping. When the piston hits the bottom of the stroke the pressure in the cylinder is much lower than atmospheric. Because of this, air is still rushing in through the intake valves as the piston starts back up the cylinder. As the piston starts to travel back up the cylinder it starts to create a high pressure wave at the bottom pushing the air back up while low pressure is still drawing air in at the top of the cyl.
The goal is to close the intake valve right as the pressure equalizes at the valve throat. As much air has rushed in as can rush in and the valve closes before any can rush out. At this point the motor has as much air in the cylinder as is possible at that RPM.

The thing to remember is that the faster the motor spins the longer it takes the air pressure to equalize. At higher RPM the piston will be further up the stroke when the air equalizes. The higher up in the RPM the earlier you want the intake valve to open and the later you want it to close. This is what is called duration and why larger duration cams make more power at higher RPM.

So now we can see that the duration of the cam effects how much air the motor can take in at a given RPM. It should also be quite clear that DCR is only useful or accurate at zero RPM and that the faster the motor spins the less DCR tells you anything about anything.

What does tell you something is volumetric efficiency.

VE measures how much air moves through the motor per revolution in relation to it's swept volume.

From VE we can calculate effective compression ratio. Now this is a very useful number. This tells you what your actual compression ratio will be at that moment. Let's say we have a 2 liter motor with stock cams. Since each cylinder only has an intake stroke every other revolution this motor at 100% VE will move one liter per revolution.

Now if the intake valve closes when the piston is 20% of it's way up the cylinder then at very close to zero RPM the motor will have 80% VE. Here DCR, VE and effective compression ratio line up.

As the motor starts spinning faster and as it starts getting closer to the RPM it was designed to be optimal in the VE should actually start to increase. Let's say at 4000 RPM this motor is consuming .9 liters of air. Now it's consuming 10% more air than the dynamic compression ratio.

Let's say by 6500 it's reached it's VE peak of 100% and is now consuming 1 liters of air. Now it should be apparent that DCR really means nothing to a running motor. It doesn't tell you anything about how that motor will behave or what it's effective compression ratio will be. At this RPM your motors effective compression is the same as the static compression ratio and the dynamic compression ratio is completely irreievant.

Let's take another motor. Same motor but race prepped. Now let's say the intake cam on this motor closes when the piston is half way up the cylinder. This will give you a DCR of half the SCR. In other words at very close to zero RPM half the mass and volume will stay in the cylinder. The other half will have been pushed back out the intake and possibly exhaust. The motor is now consuming .5 liters of air per revolution. Pre ignition pressure will be much lower, combustion pressures will be much lower. Internal stresses will be much lower and power output will be much lower. Lower cylinder pressures also mean it is further away from detonation in this area of the power band. This means you could run much higher compression and ignition timing in this area without getting detonation.
As the RPMs climb the motor will become more efficient. Let's say on this motor by 6000 RPM the VE is up to 80%, this is much different than the 50% DCR.
Let's say that it hit it's peak VE of 110% at 8000 RPM.

At close to zero RPM the motor would have injested .5 liters of air per revolution. Now at 8000 RPM the motor is injesting 1.1 liters of air per revolution. The cylinders pressures before combustion are much higher. One key thing about higher RPM is that the piston is traveling away from the head faster. This means that at higher RPM combustion pressures will stay lower. Everything also happens much faster. These two things make it much harder to detonate so you can have higher cylinder pressures and burn more air and fuel without concern for detonation.

So now if you have made it this far you will see the concept is very complex and there is a lot going on.

DCR is almost completely useless but it is the oversimplified way of explaining something most people wouldn't be able to or wouldn't care to take the time to understand fully.
You could run two completely different cams and as long as the intake valve closed at the same time they would have the same DCR yet power output would be completely different, where the motor got detonation would be completely different, the VE curve would be completely different but you wouldn't know by looking at DCR.

Effective compression rati tells you much more. It's not as easy or easily available to properly calculate unless you actually have some form of VE curve tables but even without them you can tell quite a lot about cause and effect. Going from a 250 cam to a 276 cam will move the VE curve up in the power band. With the same compression the motor will make less power in the lower RPM because less air in entering the motor per rev. At higher RPM the motor will ingest more air and therefore make more power.

Since detonation is much more likely in lower RPM the reduction in filling in that area would allow you to run more compression. This will help you recoup a lot of the power lost from the reduced VE in the lower RPM. A high performance motor with big cams and properly matched compression should be able to make similar power numbers in the low to mid RPM as it's stock or mildly tuned counterpart while making much more power in the upper RPM.

If you have access to VE maps or if you have aftermarket engine management where you can calculate VE based off of say AFRs and injector duty cycle then you can do a lot more. To calculate actual effecive CR you would just take the volume/time devided by revolutions/time to get volume per revolution.

On a four stroke you will then divide the displacement by 2 because it only has an intake stroke every other rotation. Now you just divide the volume per rev by the halved displacement of the motor.
For example

If the motor consumes 2900 LPM at 4000 RPM 2900/4000 = .725 liters per rev.
The static volume/rev on our 2 liter motor example is 1 liter.
.725/1 = .725 or 72.5% VE.
On a 1.6 liter motor with .8 l/rev the VE would be 90.06%


CR: Compression Ratio
SCR: Static Compression Ratio
DCR: Dynamic compression rati
VE: Volumetric Efficiency"
 
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I like it.
This part pertains to what's been on my mind while planning a stroker:

DCR is almost completely useless but it is the oversimplified way of explaining something most people wouldn't be able to or wouldn't care to take the time to understand fully.
You could run two completely different cams and as long as the intake valve closed at the same time they would have the same DCR yet power output would be completely different, where the motor got detonation would be completely different, the VE curve would be completely different but you wouldn't know by looking at DCR.

Effective compression rati tells you much more. It's not as easy or easily available to properly calculate unless you actually have some form of VE curve tables but even without them you can tell quite a lot about cause and effect. Going from a 250 cam to a 276 cam will move the VE curve up in the power band. With the same compression the motor will make less power in the lower RPM because less air in entering the motor per rev. At higher RPM the motor will ingest more air and therefore make more power.

Since detonation is much more likely in lower RPM the reduction in filling in that area would allow you to run more compression. This will help you recoup a lot of the power lost from the reduced VE in the lower RPM. A high performance motor with big cams and properly matched compression should be able to make similar power numbers in the low to mid RPM as it's stock or mildly tuned counterpart while making much more power in the upper RPM.

The idea of building higher compression, and using more cam duration / overlap to bleed off some of it.
Keep your low end torque, make high RPM HP, and have a wicked idle. :)
I'm sure the idea has been hashed to death. Seems too good, too easy.
 
Yea I found an article recently that talked about that. I must have bookmarked it.. It said that up to around 290 degrees you can make up a great deal of what was lost and as you get above that you can't regain as much of it.

I mean cam catalogs have always said recommended for at least such and such compression. This makes why that is make a lot more sense to me.

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I found that other article that goes into it extensively.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0606em-understanding-compression-ratio/
 
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Great article. The idea of a pump friendly high compression big cam engine is legitimized.
I'm kinda wondering about the 9.5 CR limit for iron heads I see everywhere.
I never see "9.5 CR unless you use a larger cam". Maybe I'm just missing it.
There is a member here who advocates higher compression, but I don't recall that being in association with cam bleed off.
The cylinder pressure test makes a lot of sense, with the goal of around 190, maybe 180 if planning to burn 87 octane. It's so much more real than a calculated CR.
Leak-down is likely way underutilized. I am familiar with it from my past in aircraft maintenance.
This will be good fodder for conversation with a cam grinder, prior to choosing pistons.
 
I like it.
This part pertains to what's been on my mind while planning a stroker:

DCR is almost completely useless but it is the oversimplified way of explaining something most people wouldn't be able to or wouldn't care to take the time to understand fully.
You could run two completely different cams and as long as the intake valve closed at the same time they would have the same DCR yet power output would be completely different, where the motor got detonation would be completely different, the VE curve would be completely different but you wouldn't know by looking at DCR.


Effective compression rati tells you much more. It's not as easy or easily available to properly calculate unless you actually have some form of VE curve tables but even without them you can tell quite a lot about cause and effect. Going from a 250 cam to a 276 cam will move the VE curve up in the power band. With the same compression the motor will make less power in the lower RPM because less air in entering the motor per rev. At higher RPM the motor will ingest more air and therefore make more power.

Since detonation is much more likely in lower RPM the reduction in filling in that area would allow you to run more compression. This will help you recoup a lot of the power lost from the reduced VE in the lower RPM. A high performance motor with big cams and properly matched compression should be able to make similar power numbers in the low to mid RPM as it's stock or mildly tuned counterpart while making much more power in the upper RPM.

The idea of building higher compression, and using more cam duration / overlap to bleed off some of it.
Keep your low end torque, make high RPM HP, and have a wicked idle. :)
I'm sure the idea has been hashed to death. Seems too good, too easy.




I'm not so sure that you can't have a high CR on pump gas AND not use so much cam timing you piss away bottom end.

I'm at 11:1 on PG right now and I know I can advance the cam (kill my top end for no reason) or I can add another .25 to my CR and still have no issues.

On my next build I'm going to shoot for 12:1 on PG. maybe 12.5:1 if I think I can get it. One plus of the higher CR is you don't lose the middle so much with "agressive" cam timing.

I think you can do both...get the CR up there and not need to run some long duration, no bottom end, no weak suck middle and top end only cam but get the cam timing where you can do it all.

I'm going to try.
 
Iron heads correct? I'm thinking one has to have a number of factors right - good cooling as you have pointed out, mixture not too lean, right plugs... I'm sure you can add to the list.
The article seems to suggest there's a middle ground with more cam than typical without lower RPM losses.
 
Iron heads correct? I'm thinking one has to have a number of factors right - good cooling as you have pointed out, mixture not too lean, right plugs... I'm sure you can add to the list.
The article seems to suggest there's a middle ground with more cam than typical without lower RPM losses.


I read it and I agree. There is a middle ground, and right now, I'm shifted past center on the middle ground. The next engine I'm going push even farther from the middle.

Of course, I could fail hard. But I'll never know if I don't do it. And I know Crower was doing it in the early 1980's.
 
I read it and I agree. There is a middle ground, and right now, I'm shifted past center on the middle ground. The next engine I'm going push even farther from the middle.

Of course, I could fail hard. But I'll never know if I don't do it. And I know Crower was doing it in the early 1980's.

I like it. Takes guts. Do it soon so I can learn :)
If I push it, it will only be a little as I'm not up for much of any re-do LOL.
Do you measure cylinder pressure, or use leak down?
I'm not suggesting this is you at all but one could sure fool themselves with a leaky engine.
 
I like it. Takes guts. Do it soon so I can learn :)
If I push it, it will only be a little as I'm not up for much of any re-do LOL.
Do you measure cylinder pressure, or use leak down?
I'm not suggesting this is you at all but one could sure fool themselves with a leaky engine.


I didn't leak the engine yet this winter. I did it last spring and I had 2% or less on all the holes. I do run a PCV system with the ME Wagner PCV valve and pan evacs over that.

I've been needing to mount my new tach and pull the intake manifold. I want to use an antireversion plate I've had sitting there for better than a year, and to make it fit correctly I need to do some welding.

Once I get that done, I'll leak it again. And...I need to pull my distributor and unlock it and put a curve back in it. I think I can do better with a curve rather than locked out.

I may even venture into using a vacuum advance. Haven't used one since probably 1985 when I got out of the army but I think now, maybe, I can make one work.
 
Hey YR What are the cam specs you are running with the 11:1CR?

My dad's 383 is iron headed with 915 heads. They were heavily shaved and ported. It is all cced out and is a true 11:1. He has an Ultradyne solid roller with 254@050 intake and 110 LSA. Our best octane here is 92. I've never heard his engine ping. I know he runs right at 38. The engine does not run hot.



Wallace racing has a Cranking cylinder pressure calculator. You also get an estimate if you use the dynamic compression calculator there. I don't know how accurate those estimates are.

Cranking Pressure Calculator
 
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Hey YR What are the cam specs you are running with the 11:1CR?

My dad's 383 is iron headed with 915 heads. They were heavily shaved and ported. It is all cced out and is a true 11:1. He has an Ultradyne solid roller with 254@050 intake and 110 LSA. Our best octane here is 92. I've never heard his engine ping. I know he runs right at 38. The engine does not run hot.



Wallace racing has a Cranking cylinder pressure calculator. You also get an estimate if you use the dynamic compression calculator there. I don't know how accurate those estimates are.

Cranking Pressure Calculator


The card says 283/283 seat timing, 255/255 at .050 with .620/.620 lift using 1.6 rockers on a 105 LSA installed at 105 (so straight up) and a .014/.016 hot lash.

After talking with Jim at Racer Brown once I had it up and running, he said if I want the seat timing at .020 lift like Comp and some others calculate it, it's actually 280/280 seat to seat.

That's why I say it is 280/280 seat timing because most companies use the .020 lift number and not the lash number.
 
Hey YR What are the cam specs you are running with the 11:1CR?

My dad's 383 is iron headed with 915 heads. They were heavily shaved and ported. It is all cced out and is a true 11:1. He has an Ultradyne solid roller with 254@050 intake and 110 LSA. Our best octane here is 92. I've never heard his engine ping. I know he runs right at 38. The engine does not run hot.



Wallace racing has a Cranking cylinder pressure calculator. You also get an estimate if you use the dynamic compression calculator there. I don't know how accurate those estimates are.

Cranking Pressure Calculator
It depends on what actual timing you put in them. You don't put in .050" timing, and actual true seat timing is too long. For a typical hydraulic, you would use advertised for a company that uses a .006" lift for advertised. Solids are more of a guess (for me).... most advertised are at .015" lift and if the lash is greater than that then your intake closing will be earlier, so you have to use something less than advertised. (Edit to add: I see YR has said this same thing above.) Steeper ramps.... increase intake closing number. So somewhat of a guessing game, but one that you can make use of with some thinking, knowledge of what it actually represents, and maybe seasoned by experience. Used right, the Wallace calculator nails cranking compression very closely.

But DCR is useful for looking at the mid to low RPM situation IMHO, which is where I use it as I build engine for wide RPM use. At least the article addresses the low vs high RPM intake operation. At the low RPM's the intake is on its own to pull air in, and now you are dealing w much lower VE's and the cylinder pressure pressure increase you get by pushing DCR higher is part of what you do to increase torque in those lower RPM ranges. I don't need to know VE's to make useful decisions.

BTW, the term effective compression ratio, as the article uses it, has been in use for at least 50 years in hot rod circles. I can remember reading that term, and understanding it meaning, in the 1973 hot rod rags LOL. Having data on VE's was quite a dream at that time!

And be aware that the term 'effective compression ratio' used in the Wallace calculator is DCR modifed by boost pressure and altitude effects. It is useful, and I look at it, but it is not effective CR in the same exact sense in which this article speaks.
 
Just another article for everyone to argue about.
 
Just another article for everyone to argue about.
Some like to argue. I like to learn. Both can happen :)

The card says 283/283 seat timing, 255/255 at .050 with .620/.620 lift using 1.6 rockers on a 105 LSA installed at 105 (so straight up) and a .014/.016 hot lash.

After talking with Jim at Racer Brown once I had it up and running, he said if I want the seat timing at .020 lift like Comp and some others calculate it, it's actually 280/280 seat to seat.

That's why I say it is 280/280 seat timing because most companies use the .020 lift number and not the lash number.

I'm curious what cylinder pressure you get with that cam at 11:1.
Seems to me cylinder pressure means a LOT.
 
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Some like to argue. I like to learn. Both can happen :)



I'm curious what cylinder pressure you get with that cam at 11:1.
Seems to me cylinder pressure means a LOT.


IIRC at a 105 ICL it pumped 175. I could roll it back to 103 (where Jim initially said to install it...then he found out I had a gear drive and he had me go in at 105) and pick up another 10 psi or so. Or, I could do what I was originally going to do and put a .039 gasket under the heads. That would put me at exactly 11.25:1 which is where I milled the domes down to.

Thought I had the .039 gaskets on the shelf. I didn't. Had the thicker ones. So I said screw it and put it together.
 
Seems to me cylinder pressure means a LOT.
It’s pretty much everything when you consider it is part of the combo that will make or break the combo. Not enough, dog outta the hole, crap torque. To much, Detonation City! When the pressure is right, it makes the cam very efficient in what it is designed to do and perform in. And the cams timing events playa huge huge part in this.

This is why AJ writes freakin novels that include the cylinders dynamic compression. He graciously did a bit of work for myself and yellow rose on out cams. It is interesting to see how stuff works and how it is effected by seemingly the tiniest of things.

2*’s on the cam as installed is big. Lobe Separation angle of 2° can be extremely huge! This is why people go nuts on cams. And it is never a constant. You just can say *** will do the trick because it won’t! If your experience enough, you could probably make that call and have a great result. There are online calcs that can make you semi smart.....
 
It’s pretty much everything when you consider it is part of the combo that will make or break the combo. Not enough, dog outta the hole, crap torque. To much, Detonation City! When the pressure is right, it makes the cam very efficient in what it is designed to do and perform in. And the cams timing events playa huge huge part in this.

This is why AJ writes freakin novels that include the cylinders dynamic compression. He graciously did a bit of work for myself and yellow rose on out cams. It is interesting to see how stuff works and how it is effected by seemingly the tiniest of things.

2*’s on the cam as installed is big. Lobe Separation angle of 2° can be extremely huge! This is why people go nuts on cams. And it is never a constant. You just can say *** will do the trick because it won’t! If your experience enough, you could probably make that call and have a great result. There are online calcs that can make you semi smart.....


It would be cool if that work AJ did could be added to this thread. That was very cool and it helps explain a lot.
 
Some like to argue. I like to learn. Both can happen :)



I'm curious what cylinder pressure you get with that cam at 11:1.
Seems to me cylinder pressure means a LOT.

I think it means more to some than to others. On a street engine, it's just not too terribly critical. I mean, there's no need to push the envelope.
 
On a street engine, it's just not too terribly critical. I mean, there's no need to push the envelope.
It is to some members here that insist you build it there way or your doing it wrong and Destin to do it over and over and over and over and over and over again!

After all, if you don’t maximize the MoPar out with MoPar o my parts that take advantage of every last drop, your a dumb ***! Even though it is a grocery getter.
 
It is to some members here that insist you build it there way or your doing it wrong and Destin to do it over and over and over and over and over and over again!

After all, if you don’t maximize the MoPar out with MoPar o my parts that take advantage of every last drop, your a dumb ***! Even though it is a grocery getter.

I do "BELIEVE" you got my point old man. LOL
 
It’s pretty much everything when you consider it is part of the combo that will make or break the combo. Not enough, dog outta the hole, crap torque. To much, Detonation City! When the pressure is right, it makes the cam very efficient in what it is designed to do and perform in. And the cams timing events playa huge huge part in this.

Seems so fundamental. Install cam, check cylinder pressure.
Does not seem to be standard protocol. Am I missing something?
 
Seems so fundamental. Install cam, check cylinder pressure.
Does not seem to be standard protocol. Am I missing something?


One issue is the procedure used for checking the cranking pressure. Some guys do it cold, some hot (should be as hot as you can get it) some guys leave the plugs in, some take them all out, some guys open the throttle wide open, some guys don't.

Then you have other issues. Like battery voltage. Condition of the starter. How good are the battery cables? Some starters spin faster than others.

I was having some issues at one time and the question came up about cranking pressure. At that time, I was starting the engine on 24 volts. With the plugs in it sounded like it didn't have plugs in it.

So I had to make it spin on 12 volts to give him an accurate number...something that would make sense.

Had I sent him numbers from cranking at 24 volts, he might have lost his mind.

That was back in the late 1980's and it was a Crower cam. IIRC I had 235 pounds of cranking pressure at 12 volts. At 24 volts it was 260ish IIRC.

The guy at Crower wanted me to put the cam in straight up, but I was already close on P/V on the exhaust side. Rolling it back 4 degrees would have put me danger close on P/V. One mishap and I'd have been smacking the exhaust valves off the piston.

That's some of the reasons why guys don't always check cranking pressure.
 
Seems so fundamental. Install cam, check cylinder pressure.
Does not seem to be standard protocol. Am I missing something?

No it is standard protocol. At least "for me". I've been using the degree wheel + a compression gauge since I was 18. If I get cranking pressure what I think is a little low, I advance the cam 2* degrees and check. Repeat if necessary. Of course, getting "too far" out and you KNOW you've made a "bad choice".
 
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