Help Building a great street/strip 4 speed

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mshred

mshred

The Green Manalishi
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Hey guys,

i started a thread a while ago about 4 speeds vs autos and i think i want to go 4 speed now... I have the 4 speed setup for an a-body out of a later model duster with a smallblock (not sure what spline count it is since its up in storage right now...will try to find out) and i want to use it in my 71 scamp...The car will have a 340 with the mopar 284 duration purple shaft, headers, good intake, carb undecided and 3:91 or 4:10 gears in a 4.89 sure grip...the car will see mainly street but hopefully some strip use as well....my goal is to build a 4 speed that will hold up to some serious street use and be able to take quite a beating at the track...soooo...

I dont no anything about 4 speeds really and whats parts i will need to do this....this is where you guys can hopefully come in and help me out...I dont want to spend an arm and a leg on building this transmission, but i would like to be able to build it so that my engine has growing room and the tranny can take the power....what kind of clutchs, bellhousings, flywheels, shifters, throwout bearings, etc. do you guys recommend? or do i even need to upgrade some of this stuff for a street application? as you can see im quite lost but the idea of a 4 speed is something i would like to pursue for my car....Any help about what i will need to make this transmission stand up to my plans for it will be appreciated as like i said i know nothing about speeds...

Let the teaching and learning begin:read2:
 
Mshred, The MoPar 4spd will take some very serious abuse. I've been side stepping the clutch @ 7000+ rpm's for years. Without mods, you can really put the trans to the task. IF you were racing, theres the slick shift trick, but that is a race mods and makes street driving a task instead of pleasure.

A Lakewood scatter sheild will replace the stock bell housing.
Last time around, I used Centerforce clutch, pressure plate and throw out bearing. There clutch is a diaophram styled pressure plate instead of the 3 fingered borg and beck set up. This diaphram set up will require some tinkering and a helper spring to get the clutch pedal back all the way up. That part I didn't like, but that dual friction set up is awesome and what I recomend.

Fill the tranny up with synth. gear oil. I used Mobil's sythn. gear oil without isue for years.

Everything else can be stock. Though the shifter is a personal type of thing. The OE shifter my pistol grip is attached to was replaced by a new one, OE style in everylooking and mechanical working respect. There a little tricky to get good at since stock is not high performance tight.

My last 360 that was infront of the OE 4spd was inexcess of 450 HP and I used the stock (Brand new) OE flywheel without issue for 2 summers until the engine toasted.
 
I've always liked the hurst comp shifter's and really you could get away with the stock aluminum bell but the lakewood bell housing is hard to beat when it comes to saving your feet.

Really the 833 is pretty bullet proof already, there are race tricks like cutting every other tooth of the syncros hence 'slick shift' trans , which helps with fast shifting.

The side cover shift levering would be best with the 70-71 & earlier side cover [ball detent style].
 
hey guysm thanks for the info..i have some more questions already

what is side stepping the clutch and slick shifting?

I also read on some other posts that the centerforce dual friction clutch is kind of annoying in that you have to use a lot of force to push the clutch pedal...it seems that the stage 2 is better for the street..am i wrong?

From what i understand a bellhousing is a scattershield? and how high is the chance that i will need to save my feet? should i get a good scattershield even if i am only racing a couple times a year?

I have looked at some sites for mopar shifters and they only offer a shifter for 422 new process transmissions...what the heck tranny is that? i cant find any for A833's

thanks for the help so far guys...please keep the info coming as i am totaly new to the whole 4 speed thing
 
mshred said:
hey guysm thanks for the info..i have some more questions already

what is side stepping the clutch and slick shifting?

I also read on some other posts that the centerforce dual friction clutch is kind of annoying in that you have to use a lot of force to push the clutch pedal...it seems that the stage 2 is better for the street..am i wrong?

From what i understand a bellhousing is a scattershield? and how high is the chance that i will need to save my feet? should i get a good scattershield even if i am only racing a couple times a year?

I have looked at some sites for mopar shifters and they only offer a shifter for 422 new process transmissions...what the heck tranny is that? i cant find any for A833's

thanks for the help so far guys...please keep the info coming as i am totaly new to the whole 4 speed thing
Click to expand...

'Slick shift' was the marketing name for mopar perf 4 spd trans that they sold through mopar perf catalogs, it had the modified syncros and such.

The center force dual friction is a great dual purpose clutch that requires little pedal pressure to operate.

Very slim chance on the feet thing but if your dropping the clutch at say 5500-7500 with slicks well you might wanna get that lakewood set up.

Look in a jegs catalog for mopar hurst shifters.
 
In fact and I think a few will agree on this is that if you wanna talk about lots of pedal pressure look at the hays strip clutch, it'll break your pivot bracket and blister the ball of your foot.lol
 
mshred said:
what is side stepping the clutch and slick shifting?
Click to expand...

That is when your foot goes to the floor pushing the pedal down to change a gear. Instead of bringing the foot back up, you pivot your foot at the heal to the left and allow the clutch pedal to slam up.

Also, the "Slick Shift" tranny is when you take the gears out and machine off every other tooth inside. The trans now must be shifted very hard and aggressively.

I also read on some other posts that the centerforce dual friction clutch is kind of annoying in that you have to use a lot of force to push the clutch pedal...it seems that the stage 2 is better for the street..am i wrong?
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Incoooorrrrect. I have the top of the line Centerforce stuff in the car now. The "Dual Friction" stuff. The Centerforce pressure plates are very easy and smooth to operate. Like said above, the Hays unit, sold also under the MoPar Performance tag is one stiff S.O.B. for sure and will build muscle like a work out. I had both levels of Hays units and the street strip is hard and the strip unit is UnBElieveable in the strength needed to move it. The Strip unit, IIRC, is rated at 3200 lbs. or 3400lbs. of force. It has bent most parts under the car.

Been there done that.

From what i understand a bellhousing is a scattershield? and how high is the chance that i will need to save my feet? should i get a good scattershield even if i am only racing a couple times a year?
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They function the same. However, a bellhousing is a stock part or replacement part. A scatter sheild will contain all the parts incase of an explosion. If the clutch explodes on you while racing or other, you will loose feet, at the least. Parts of the pressure plate, flywheel and disc fragment into smaller projectiles that will rip through the floor with ease. Your flesh is nothing by compare in strength.

You should protect yourself from any possible problems with modified engines and racing problems everytime. An explosion may never happen, but if it happens once, the scattersheild price is mear penny's in compare to the Medical bills, physical therapy bills, down time, lost wages and PAIN you'll suffer.

The Lakewood scattersheild is steel and very heavy. The OE bellhousing is aluminum.

I have looked at some sites for mopar shifters and they only offer a shifter for 422 new process transmissions...what the heck tranny is that? i cant find any for A833's
Click to expand...

I don't know what a 422 is. But the trans maker is called, "New Process" and they made the OE 4spd's. The 833 is a New Process. After the OE type of shifter, theres a few aftermarket shifters out there. You'll just have to turn over the right rock. Look through Hurst and Mr. Gasket catologs.

thanks for the help so far guys...please keep the info coming as i am totaly new to the whole 4 speed thing
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No problem. I'm not an expert on building or modifying these things and it has been awhile since I ran my 4spd car, but I have had my 4spd Cuda since I'm 20 years old (I'm 42 now) and love to row my own boat.
(Shift gears = row boat)

I'm not big on automatic trannys. There great in rush hour, even more so when there stock. And there very consistant in a race, but they don't thrill me. I like more control and manual control over my ride even if it makes me a bit slower. It's just alot more fun.
 
hey rumblefish thanks for all the info so far....its helping me out quite a bit in understanding what parts i need...as far as scattershields go they are quite pricey, but i guess its like buying a blanket for a tranny with a manual valve body- its worth it in the long run since your legs are worth more than 400 bucks....would this chance of the tranny going occur on the street too? Also, in a manual car how do you bring the revs up to launch like you would in an automatic car? from a thread that i started before, i understood that the way you would have do this is why manuals are harder on parts than autos for the strip?...
 
mshred said:
...would this chance of the tranny going occur on the street too?
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Are you asking me if there is a chance the tranny would let loose in the street. If your beating on it, sure. Why not? Why? Is your engine 600+ HP?
If it's plus this kind of power, your pushing the limits of the trannys weak points. This is where the scattersheild comes in.


Also, in a manual car how do you bring the revs up to launch like you would in an automatic car?
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HUH!?! (I'm about to say your kidding right?)
Just like an automatic. Except your pushing on the clutch pedal instead of the brake pedal.

from a thread that i started before, i understood that the way you would have do this is why manuals are harder on parts than autos for the strip?...
Click to expand...

Is that a statement or question? It doesn't read well or right. I'm not sure how to address that.
 
Mshred,I also have the same set-up as rumble..lakewood scattershield,centerforce dual-friction clutch.not sure what he,s runnin out back but mines 8 3/4 .489 with 4.10,s.I also have slide a-link by comp. engineering.3-way race shocks.This all is needed to LAUNCH YOUR CAR.DUMPING THE CLUTCH AND TRACTION ARE IMPERative for a good 60ft. time.I ran12.82 at 108mph 60ft. 1.84. This spring I,m installing a 2step rev limiter so I can work,work,work on my 60ft. also changing to 4.57 gear!I demand low 12,s.Still got my feet.haha!!Also I have a small block cLUTH AND PRESSURE PLATE FOR SALE WITHABOUT 500 MILES ON IT..CHEAP..YES MY CLUTCH PEDAL IS NICE AND EASY!!!STICKS ARE JUST PLAIN MUSCLECAR8)
 
A scattershield is cheap insurance. One of my buddies lucked out with only a small cut from a piece of clutch debris that found its way through the floor on a missed shift. That was a wake-up call for our little group of ruffians. It's worth the money if you're gonna do it.

A four-speed is often more punishing to everything behind it. Spending the extra money on the ultra-super-heavy-dutiest U-joints you can find is peace of mind from the nagging worry of pole vaulting the car at some inopportune time (at ridiculous speeds, etc). My problem was always launching bits of metal through the walls of the case (including the entire countershaft). The 833 should be much more tolerant of abuse on that level than the Brand-X crap.

I'll echo what's been said about the dual-friction setup - it rocks. The strip clutches are fun for a while, but one traffic jam fixes that.

This has me thinking of converting my Dart. Again. Ffffffffffiddlesticks.
 
Hey rumblefish,
my car doesnt have 600 horsepower ( i wish) but i just want to be safe...yes i do want to beat on it a little on the street (or maybe more than a little) and be safe so i just wanted to know if it would be nescesary for the scattershield....my question about being hard on parts was a question...and sorry if some of my questions sound a little dumb- the one about bringing up the revs, i swear i read somewhere you cant launch bringing up the revs in a manual....if you do though, from what your saying, is that what they call dumping the clutch once you take your foot off to launch?

hey pettyblu, my car wont be as much of a track car as yours (timewise) but i do plan on smallblock, 4.89 case with 4.10's (or 3.91's...we'll see) and the minitub...i may also go with adjustable pinion snub/ ss springs too...hopefully enough traction/ power to get me in the 13's....Is the two step rev limiter something that you need to get better times in a manual, or is it just a helper? what brand is the clutch and pressure plate you have for sale? also, do you recommend anything else for a stick that hasnt been said here?

one last thing too...i am going to be using power steering and want to use headers and was planning on flowtechs...will i have any problems running headers, ps and a manual?

thanks so much so far guys...the 4 speed world is becoming much less blury for me
 
hey doktor x didnt even see your post...must have been posted while i was writing mine....as far as scattershield goes, it does seem like cheap insurance that i would probably invest in....the dual friction clutch does seem like a go as well if i choose this route for sure and everything works out...as far as u joints go, what could happen to the car if they do fail? the fact that 4 speeds take more of a beating than autos is the only thing that kinda wants me to shy away from them, but im only going to see the track 2-3 times a year at most...even still though, i want to drive it hard on the street (while still being safe lol) and if the clutch, pressure plate and scattershield arent enough to get me into the 12's without breaking im not too sure its something i want to get into than
 
mshred said:
as far as u joints go, what could happen to the car if they do fail?
Click to expand...
A driveshaft safety loop should pretty much eliminate the pole vaulting scenario. It is a spectacular visual though. ;-) If a u-joint experiences catastrophic failure at any kind of speed, it can beat the [expletive deleted] out of the transmission tunnel and possibly take the transmission with it (via mangling stuff at the rear of said transmission). The same thing can happen with an automatic though. I wouldn't let that have too much sway in the decision. There are some really nasty cars running manuals without major issues. Just don't skimp on the really important stuff. The giggle factor makes the swap worthwhile.
 
Call Brewers performance, they can answer all your trans questions.

Also slantsix.org has a few articles in their website that covers Mopar four speed transmissions very extensively.

I've got the McCleod clutch set up in the barracuda with a 23 spline a-833 four speed.
it has the lower ratio first gear and pulls well with the 3.23 geared sure grip.

I do not have a scattershield, but I also do not plan on launching the car to the moon or drag racing it.
Just fun for the street with enough power to intimidate the brand x-rs.

http://video.cardomain.com/Clip.aspx?key=17D700A876B2D32D

http://video.cardomain.com/Clip.aspx?key=048A4A3081BB922F

Couple neighborhood test n tune sessions.
In the second video my Wife mumbles "oh god" because it went sideways a bit on me and it took me about 20 replays of the video to convince myself it was her mumbling not my transmission or rear end groaning.
 
The clutch is a HAYES STOCK CLUTCH,THE 2 STEP IS A HELPER FOR CONSISTENCY,HEADDERS AREN,T A PROBLEM WITH P.STEERING,THERE JUST A BIOTCH TO PUT D.SIDE ON.YOU HAVE TO DROP YOUR CENTER LINK.i UNDID D.SIDE MOTOR MOUNT JACK MOTOR UP FEW INCHES MAKES MUCH EASIER FOR INSTALL.MY CAR IS A STREET CAR THAT I TAKE TO THE TRACK.wHY???Cause I like my lic. and my car.they will suspend and impound..$$$$i GUESS MY STREET TIRES ARE GETTING WORN cause they seem to screech way to easy when releasing clutch.LMAO!!!WHEN YOU FIRST TAKE YOUR CAR DOWN THE TRACK,IT,S LIKE THE FIRST TIME WITH YOUR GIRL!!!NERvous as #%$#!And it,s an addiction.BE prepared to REALLY enjoy yourself.hope this helps.
 
cudaspaz said:
I've got the McCleod clutch set up in the barracuda with a 23 spline a-833 four speed.
it has the lower ratio first gear and pulls well with the 3.23 geared sure grip.

I do not have a scattershield, but I also do not plan on launching the car to the moon or drag racing it.
Just fun for the street with enough power to intimidate the brand x-rs.
quote]

Hey Cudaspaz, i dont plan on anything crazy on the street, pretty much like what you said...some sheer intimidation against other cars and just a few fun launches here and there...I guess i need to learn more about driving stick before i decide if i need the scattershield...but even still, if i end up going to the track i think its cheap insurance, so it may just end up going in because of the fact that i would love to take to the track

pettybludart said:
The clutch is a HAYES STOCK CLUTCH,THE 2 STEP IS A HELPER FOR CONSISTENCY,HEADDERS AREN,T A PROBLEM WITH P.STEERING,THERE JUST A BIOTCH TO PUT D.SIDE ON.YOU HAVE TO DROP YOUR CENTER LINK.i UNDID D.SIDE MOTOR MOUNT JACK MOTOR UP FEW INCHES MAKES MUCH EASIER FOR INSTALL.MY CAR IS A STREET CAR THAT I TAKE TO THE TRACK.wHY???Cause I like my lic. and my car.they will suspend and impound..$$$$i GUESS MY STREET TIRES ARE GETTING WORN cause they seem to screech way to easy when releasing clutch.LMAO!!!WHEN YOU FIRST TAKE YOUR CAR DOWN THE TRACK,IT,S LIKE THE FIRST TIME WITH YOUR GIRL!!!NERvous as #%$#!And it,s an addiction.BE prepared to REALLY enjoy yourself.hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Hey pettyblu, thanks for the offer on the used clutch, but i would like to go with the centerforce dual friction that you and rumblefish are using...seems like the best route to go....as far as headers go i can deal with what you said, as long as they still can work im happy....I am very excited to go the track, and yes you are right i will be overly nervous (i love your comparison) and i realize it will be an addiction to- problem is that im going to be craving the addicition but not able to fulfill it since cayuga is 1 and half hours away from my place...i believe in taking it to the track, but i still want to be able to have a few fun little stoplight launches here and there without goin overboard
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hey guys,

i have the option between either a regular 4 speed or the overdrive version...the overdrive version would be great for the street driving i want to put the car through, but i have read somewhere that the overdrives arent very good performance wise...is this true? what do you guys recommend?
 
mshred said:
hey guys,

i have the option between either a regular 4 speed or the overdrive version...the overdrive version would be great for the street driving i want to put the car through, but i have read somewhere that the overdrives arent very good performance wise...is this true? what do you guys recommend?
Click to expand...


Alright, the counter shaft support in the aluminum case OD trans is the weak point, not so with the iron version 75'-76' supposedly a one yr thing.

The gears in the OD are spaced a bit and causes a significate drop in rpm between shifts.

The regular 4spd is the way to go unless mileage is more important then performance.
 
i read that you can buy replacement gear sets for the OD from passon or Brewers (cant remember which...may be neither) and that it changes this so you get better performance from 1-3 and still get 4th gear overdrive...anybody know of this?
 
If you start replaceing gears, you'll spend that ton-o-money you want to save.


from what your saying, is that what they call dumping the clutch once you take your foot off to launch?
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You'll not want to dump the clucth at lunch, but agressivley enguage it. There is a difference. Then dump the clutch on the 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 shifts.

It's all about the timing of these things with a 4spd to get it done right, quick and effectively. To read this is one thing, to do it is another. Practice practice practice.....

Hey rumblefish,
my car doesnt have 600 horsepower ( i wish) but i just want to be safe...yes i do want to beat on it a little on the street (or maybe more than a little) and be safe so i just wanted to know if it would be nescesary for the scattershield....
Click to expand...

Hey, I'm a bit pissed reading this, why!? I want you to go back and count how many times other people suggest this peice of equipment for your own saftey and well being and labeled it as cheap insurance.

Hey, do what you want, it's only your feet. You really don't need them to live, so, do what you want, think what you want, spend what you want, listen to what you want, take info in from here, from the people trying to help you, free of charge on top of it, giving advice to others like a good buddy would in your best intrest.

I'm out!

LATER!
 
rumblefish360 said:
If you start replaceing gears, you'll spend that ton-o-money you want to save.



You'll not want to dump the clucth at lunch, but agressivley enguage it. There is a difference. Then dump the clutch on the 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 shifts.

It's all about the timing of these things with a 4spd to get it done right, quick and effectively. To read this is one thing, to do it is another. Practice practice practice.....



Hey, I'm a bit pissed reading this, why!? I want you to go back and count how many times other people suggest this peice of equipment for your own saftey and well being and labeled it as cheap insurance.

Hey, do what you want, it's only your feet. You really don't need them to live, so, do what you want, think what you want, spend what you want, listen to what you want, take info in from here, from the people trying to help you, free of charge on top of it, giving advice to others like a good buddy would in your best intrest.

I'm out!

LATER!
Click to expand...

Hey Rumblefish,

i sense from your post that you are upset from what i have said...Ive had some other people (non forum guys) tell me that i wont need a shield on the street....i was just asking...even cudaspaz said he doesnt run one and his car is quite more serious than mine will be...i understand you and everyone else are looking out for my best interests by offerring advice to me and its not like im choosing not to listen to it...im just trying to hear both sides to the story to find out what i really need to do for my car (scattershield vs. no s shield)...i hope you know that i appreciate all your help so far- you have been the prime source of info for me on this thread and i thank you for educating me...you have made me very excited to "row my own boat"8)...i really hope you arent taking this offensively, like i said i was just asking if i "really" needed one... i know its cheap insurance, but so am I (cheap i mean) so whatever i can live without i would like too, but im not too sure i can live without my legs, which is why you have good advice...

and second, hoping you arent done with this thread and offerring advice to me, how much money would i be looking at for changing gearsets....i went to the brewers site but kinda got lost as to what part name it is exactly that i would need to change for this

p.s. just out of curiousity does your 4 spd cuda have a scattershield?
 
MSHRED,i THINK Rumble fISH MISITERPReted when you said(cheap insurance)which I think you meant $400 or your feet.$400 is cheap compared to a life without your feet.So yes it is CHEAP INSURANCE for saving your feet.I hope this sounds right and please Rumble come back IN this thread and give the respected knowledge that young and old(new)Mopar A-body owners need.YOUR ADVISE IS APPRECIATED CAN BE PAST ON TO OTHERS.THANKS
 
Stop the press.
Look, I know guys out there that have 400+hp that run the stock bell, but they also don't shift @ 7200 or in most cases know how to drive/shift their cars in the first place [not to piss on anyone too much] but then again there are those who are prepared and those that find out the hard way.

Now with everything balanced and bell dialed in I don't see any problems shifting 6500-6800 all day long on the street with aluminum and a QUALITY
CLUTCH & Flywheel, but slicks & 7000+, uhh I'll take the lakewood.

Rummy, pound 3 beers, yell fu*#$% and come back to the thread.lol
 
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