Help Me Cool Down

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T56MaxTorq

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hey friends been getting a little hot lately with warm temps and I need to optimize my cooling system. I have a unique system and need help finding some parts. Build is a turbo 318 magnum w/ 904 in a duster running e85.

It will stay cool under boost but if it comes to a sudden stop and idles, temps climb.

Problems with design:

I’ve had to run a underdrive crank pulley and that lowers my fan speed. I need to find or CNC an underdriven water pump pulley. Water pump is an upgraded unit - more impellers.

My fan position is questionable as to efficiency inside my shroud. What depth should it be to the radiator and the exit of the shroud?

My radiator is smaller than expected and the shroud is custom - how can keep it and make it work? Add a reservoir? Remove the oil cooler up front and mount that cooler elsewhere with an aux fan? Repurpose the radiators trans cooler into something?

View attachment 1715390031

8912FF7D-A196-409C-8F01-6C6D50FF02DD.jpeg
 
In addition to your underdrive WP pulley slowing the fan speed, you may not be building up enough pressure in the system. So fixing this problem is pretty important. If that's not practical, I'd say your next best solution is to switch to electric fans.
Running a remote trans cooler will help. If you run the extrusion style, it can be placed just about anywhere so you don't have to put it in front of the radiator.
 
IMHO, you answered your own question.

It will stay cool under boost but if it comes to a sudden stop and idles, temps climb

My assumption to what you have said is that while running at other than idle rpm it cools just fine.

had to run a underdrive crank pulley and that lowers my fan speed

Get the fan speed up.

I am not a fan of shrouds but if it is working at speed it is not blocking too much air flow,
Only change 1 thing at a time to see what the root cause of the problem is.

My gut is fan speed
 
Ideally I’d like to water cool my wastegate as well so I need all the tricks at hand.

I agree guys - get my fan speed up. I can’t locate a smaller pulley in aftermarket. I’ll have to get one designed or hack one up.

That and get a full size electric fan(s) up front. I don’t have an intercooler so no extra heat from there.

One thing I do need to address is vents. My hood is uncut. I cannot at all decide on a decent looking way to vent this. Cowl induction hood is my choice I suppose.
 
Ideally I’d like to water cool my wastegate as well so I need all the tricks at hand.

I agree guys - get my fan speed up. I can’t locate a smaller pulley in aftermarket. I’ll have to get one designed or hack one up.

That and get a full size electric fan(s) up front. I don’t have an intercooler so no extra heat from there.

One thing I do need to address is vents. My hood is uncut. I cannot at all decide on a decent looking way to vent this. Cowl induction hood is my choice I suppose.


It's not just the fan speed that's down. It's the pump speed.

You need flow to cool the engine. Air flow and coolant flow. You've lost both.

Keeping the coolant in the engine is bad. You can't give up flow and not expect issues.
 
It's not just the fan speed that's down. It's the pump speed.

You need flow to cool the engine. Air flow and coolant flow. You've lost both.

Keeping the coolant in the engine is bad. You can't give up flow and not expect issues.

Agree, and looks like your fan is running a little deep in the shroud. Should be half of the fan blade in and half of the fan blade outside of the shroud.
 
I am not a fan of shrouds but if it is working at speed it is not blocking too much air flow,

Why aren't you a fan of shrouds???

Fan shrouds are very important for proper engine cooling...

OEM manufacturers spend hours to tune in fan shrouds and seal them to the radiator for maximum cooling...

A properly designed shroud will help pull and direct air through the radiator for maximum cooling...
 
All good advice, go with at least a direct 1:1 ratio if you can't go with an overdrive. The last time I looked, March and CFV Racing both had direct V-belt pulleys and CFV carries an alternator and water pump 8 rib serpentine with a 20% overdrive. I highly recommend ditching the flex fan and installing a 7 blade clutch fan or even a fixed fan. IMHO, FWIW, when you have boost, worrying about parasitic loss from the fan on a primarily street car is a moot point anyway. Here's some info from our friends at Flowkooler. Commons Questions about Hi Flow Pumps
 
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I was running that same flex fan you have and everyone said to get rid of it and get a factory 7 blade fan, so I did. I also changed the radiator to a cold case but with that change, it stays cool now for sure and I love it!! I fought the running hot for a long time but these 2 things definitely cured it. I even went with the same small block 22" radiator which was the OEM size for the 318 that came in the car. I am now running a 440. The cold case radiator has 2 rows of 1.25 inch tubes and works much better than the small tubes of the factory radiator.
 
Why aren't you a fan of shrouds???

Fan shrouds are very important for proper engine cooling...

OEM manufacturers spend hours to tune in fan shrouds and seal them to the radiator for maximum cooling...

A properly designed shroud will help pull and direct air through the radiator for maximum cooling...

The shroud becomes less important the closer the fan is to the radiator. Mine is close enough I don't need the shroud. If the fan will cool the engine at idle and low speeds without a shroud you are better off without it. As road speed goes up, the shroud becomes a restriction.
 
hey friends been getting a little hot lately with warm temps and I need to optimize my cooling system. I have a unique system and need help finding some parts. Build is a turbo 318 magnum w/ 904 in a duster running e85.

It will stay cool under boost but if it comes to a sudden stop and idles, temps climb.

Problems with design:

I’ve had to run a underdrive crank pulley and that lowers my fan speed. I need to find or CNC an underdriven water pump pulley. Water pump is an upgraded unit - more impellers.

My fan position is questionable as to efficiency inside my shroud. What depth should it be to the radiator and the exit of the shroud?

My radiator is smaller than expected and the shroud is custom - how can keep it and make it work? Add a reservoir? Remove the oil cooler up front and mount that cooler elsewhere with an aux fan? Repurpose the radiators trans cooler into something?

View attachment 1715390031

View attachment 1715390032

Get rid of the flex fan ! Those are only good for stock lower h.p. engines . How thick is the shroud ? A thin one will cut air flow ! Use the biggest mech fan u can run . Small Pulley is a problem too.
 
The shroud becomes less important the closer the fan is to the radiator. Mine is close enough I don't need the shroud. If the fan will cool the engine at idle and low speeds without a shroud you are better off without it. As road speed goes up, the shroud becomes a restriction.

Opposite of mine , have to run a shroud for in town driving, cools off out on the road-----it will suck/circulate hot engine compartment air w/o one .
A lot of this cooling business TOTALLY depends on what kind of engine is being utilized, what works on a smaller near-ish stock engine wont work on a hi h.p bigblock in a tite engine compartment !
 
It's not just the fan speed that's down. It's the pump speed.

You need flow to cool the engine. Air flow and coolant flow. You've lost both.

Keeping the coolant in the engine is bad. You can't give up flow and not expect issues.

I agree - up the pump/fan combo speed. I do have a high efficiency water pump so I imagine it’s about a normal amount of flow being undsrdriven.

The fan is about 3/4” from the rad and the shroud encases the entire fan.
 
The shroud becomes less important the closer the fan is to the radiator. Mine is close enough I don't need the shroud. If the fan will cool the engine at idle and low speeds without a shroud you are better off without it. As road speed goes up, the shroud becomes a restriction.

Incorrect.
Your fan would have to pass over every sq in of core for that to be accurate.
That's what the shroud does though, it's funneling the air through the entire core to the fan's draw.
Your fan (and mine) only draw air through the fan blades swept area.
Some combos will need a shroud to keep cool, some wont.
It's not "run it close and you won't need a shroud".
I fit one to my app. but haven't needed it.
 
I agree - up the pump/fan combo speed. I do have a high efficiency water pump so I imagine it’s about a normal amount of flow being undsrdriven.

The fan is about 3/4” from the rad and the shroud encases the entire fan.

Half in half out range is good.
Leading edge inside, trailing edge outside.
Too close to core isn't efficient with a shroud.
 
Incorrect.
Your fan would have to pass over every sq in of core for that to be accurate.
That's what the shroud does though, it's funneling the air through the entire core to the fan's draw.
Your fan (and mine) only draw air through the fan blades swept area.
Some combos will need a shroud to keep cool, some wont.
It's not "run it close and you won't need a shroud".
I fit one to my app. but haven't needed it.



What I said was, if the fan moves enough air at idle and low speed, the shroud doesn't need to be there. In fact, funneling all that air through the shroud after 15 MPH or so is a power killer.

That's what I'm saying. If the fan is too far away from the radiator, you must have a shroud.
 
The fan does not cool anything after 25 MPH. unless you are using power for a while on a hill at slower speeds. Neither does the shroud. My cars that had electric fans on a thermostat would only come on at slow speeds in traffic or at a stop. The performance cars had clutch fans which would help performance on acceleration.

The newer clutch fans had a thermostat built in and would be controlled by hot air coming through the rad.. On a long pull. You would here them activate when needed.

My diesel trucks have a electric activated fan by the ECM that work off of the thermostat in the coolant system. I would need to be pulling a long hill with a lot of weight before you would ever hear the fan kick in.

Shrouds are good to have for slow speed traffic and at idle. Once the vehicle is moving a speed you don't need a fan or a shroud unless the power being made exceeds the cooling of the speed you are traveling with the proper radiator for the HP you are making.

When you buy a radiator for a car you buy them by HP rating. If you have a wide radiator you may need twin fans to cover core. This will use the whole core for the fans to cool your motor until the speed over comes the draw of the fans. Then they would shut off. How often do you hear your fan come on in your new car? Only when it idles standing still for a period of time depending on the coolant flow.

Again the mopar pumps work the opposite of what they appear. The more the blades the less they cool at higher RPM's/speed. AC cars come with more blades on the pump. 340 cars came with less blades without AC for better cooling at Higher RPMs. with the greater HP. They cool better.

I have seen this from years of switching motors in cars from one extreme to another. If I would see the temp rising Traveling at high speed with 391's / 410's in my cars it was an indication of the wrong pump on the motor installed . In the early years I was swapping 340's quite often.

They didn't last me long I was very hard on them in the 70's street racing them . I saw this first hand. I always ran the smaller impeller pump. Now idling with AC or higher gears such as 323's need the larger dia. pump impeller with more fins was better if you were a light foot. I always wore steel tips if you get the hint. I didn't care about blowing motors. I had several more at home. which should be known by my thread pictures of my past.

Your choice of cooling is made by your HP + gear ratio + your driving. Vacuum leaks or timing effect heat more than you all would think. a good exhaust is also instrumental. To large or to short is not good for a motor. .

Most Hemi SS cars have a cone that drops their exhaust header from 4" to 2 1/2 " at the collector and back to 4" Big short exhausts make less power and more heat. If you are running a full exhaust with mufflers you can use large pipes. I ran 3 1/2 through mufflers with a restrict-or made by my tail pipes. I tried both ways open and full exhaust. The open made more heat and less torque I include picture of what I have tried.

The point is your cooling system isn't the only thing that will make it run hot. Trial and error is how I learned . at times it got quite expensive. As seen by my car I wasn't concerned about the looks more than performance. But it had to look all factory when walking around the car. The element of surprise. Hence the tips. LOL

Note there was no thermostat on the 340 fans here is a picture and the pic of the collector is from Bartons Hemi Dart

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Steve 079.JPG


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Steve 059.JPG


Steve 061.JPG
 
Does a HD flex fan not move a lot of air at idle? It looks to have a lot of pitch. My issue isn’t so much at speed as when at idle. The shroud is tight against the fan blades, about 1/2” clearance. With the turbo and a 3200 stall, I’m alsways running around 2500-5000 rpm, lower than NA engines.

I’m going to try some dual electric fans up front and see if it’ll help first. I absolutely need to tackle the pulley problem. I need to keep the smaller crank pulley I have because it isn’t concave like oem and i needed to mount a lock bolt to secure an ignition wheel to the crank. The new pulley has some meat to tap into. I could also try and see if a machinist can weld on a ignition wheel to an oem pulley - problem is that it needs to be fairly concentric for the hall sensor and balance.
 
Does a HD flex fan not move a lot of air at idle? It looks to have a lot of pitch. My issue isn’t so much at speed as when at idle. The shroud is tight against the fan blades, about 1/2” clearance. With the turbo and a 3200 stall, I’m alsways running around 2500-5000 rpm, lower than NA engines.

I’m going to try some dual electric fans up front and see if it’ll help first. I absolutely need to tackle the pulley problem. I need to keep the smaller crank pulley I have because it isn’t concave like oem and i needed to mount a lock bolt to secure an ignition wheel to the crank. The new pulley has some meat to tap into. I could also try and see if a machinist can weld on a ignition wheel to an oem pulley - problem is that it needs to be fairly concentric for the hall sensor and balance.

The dual elec fans aren`t the answer , unless its a low h.p. setup .I tried about everything under the sun on mine , went back to a mech. belt driven , w/ a shroud. Runs about 192 -205 in okla. heat in town, have an elec 14" in front of the rad. mounted as far away from it as possible , set to come on at 205. The front elec. fan can restrict hi-way cooling if ur not careful .
 
The shroud becomes less important the closer the fan is to the radiator. Mine is close enough I don't need the shroud. If the fan will cool the engine at idle and low speeds without a shroud you are better off without it. As road speed goes up, the shroud becomes a restriction.

Kinda agree , but what kind of engine are talking about , 500'' and 700 h.p. ? Not likely--------jmo
 
The dual elec fans aren`t the answer , unless its a low h.p. setup .I tried about everything under the sun on mine , went back to a mech. belt driven , w/ a shroud. Runs about 192 -205 in okla. heat in town, have an elec 14" in front of the rad. mounted as far away from it as possible , set to come on at 205. The front elec. fan can restrict hi-way cooling if ur not careful .

I was going to add electric fans in conjunction with my mechanical fan and get a smaller water pump pulley or change my crank pulley setup.
 
I'd do the pulley change and get the fan placed in the shroud correctly first.
The simple stuff.
Could be all you need to do.
 
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