I have a ‘73 Duster. Thinking about a hemi swap. I know it’s not an easy swap, plus it’s a 4 speed car. Is retaining the manual even possible?
Hemi swap
- Thread starter '73red-duster
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m193
Well-Known Member
I did mine about 6 years ago. It's not too hard and it's a blast to drive.
DionR
Well-Known Member
I think the swap is only as hard as you want to make it and depends on what all you want and how much you want to spend.
My brother built his '71 Demon with a 6.4 and kept the A833, so yes that can be done. The only caveat is that (I think) a hydraulic TO bearing is required.
Off the top of my head, here is the simplest swap I can think of that keeps the 4 speed, assuming you have the V8 k-frame.
Car hemi or at least TC cover and FEAD
TTI or Shumacher mounts
TTI headers
Holley or Milodon oil pan
Conversion flywheel and new clutch kit
Hydraulic clutch
Ford 302 90 degree filter adapter
Tank Inc gas tank
LM Challenger radiator and fan and an aftermarket controller
Hotwire Auto harness and PCM
The only body work that I know of is notching the flange on the PS front rail so the alternator fits. And the firewall if you want to run a 6.4 intake with functional SRV. Plus the steering column tube has to be cut back to clear the cylinder head. But it should be close to a bolt in with just minor tweaks beyond that.
This setup doesn't easily allow for AC and requires manual steering or a Borgeson box. The Schumacher mounts are better for the low mount AC compressor, but the TTI headers might need massaging with those mounts.
The other option is the Holley kit, but that moves the motor forward and requires work to make the 4 speed function. I like their kit for my '73 Duster, but with a T56 swap I was going to rebuild everything anyways. That option fixes the issue of the SRV module crashing with the firewall, and if a later motor is used the low mount AC compressor is a bolt on.
The last option is a coil over kit, that would solve the PS and AC issues. And installation would be easier, but once past the install I don't see the advantage to "more room" since the headers are the same for both. And the cost goes up a fair bit all at once.
There are certainly tweaks and different ways of doing things. But that's how I would do it if I were to Hemi swap my '74 and kept the 4 speed.
My brother built his '71 Demon with a 6.4 and kept the A833, so yes that can be done. The only caveat is that (I think) a hydraulic TO bearing is required.
Off the top of my head, here is the simplest swap I can think of that keeps the 4 speed, assuming you have the V8 k-frame.
Car hemi or at least TC cover and FEAD
TTI or Shumacher mounts
TTI headers
Holley or Milodon oil pan
Conversion flywheel and new clutch kit
Hydraulic clutch
Ford 302 90 degree filter adapter
Tank Inc gas tank
LM Challenger radiator and fan and an aftermarket controller
Hotwire Auto harness and PCM
The only body work that I know of is notching the flange on the PS front rail so the alternator fits. And the firewall if you want to run a 6.4 intake with functional SRV. Plus the steering column tube has to be cut back to clear the cylinder head. But it should be close to a bolt in with just minor tweaks beyond that.
This setup doesn't easily allow for AC and requires manual steering or a Borgeson box. The Schumacher mounts are better for the low mount AC compressor, but the TTI headers might need massaging with those mounts.
The other option is the Holley kit, but that moves the motor forward and requires work to make the 4 speed function. I like their kit for my '73 Duster, but with a T56 swap I was going to rebuild everything anyways. That option fixes the issue of the SRV module crashing with the firewall, and if a later motor is used the low mount AC compressor is a bolt on.
The last option is a coil over kit, that would solve the PS and AC issues. And installation would be easier, but once past the install I don't see the advantage to "more room" since the headers are the same for both. And the cost goes up a fair bit all at once.
There are certainly tweaks and different ways of doing things. But that's how I would do it if I were to Hemi swap my '74 and kept the 4 speed.
Map63Vette
Well-Known Member
I initially did my 5.7 swap with the 833. I was using an early 5.7 (2006) and running a truck cover though as that made it the easiest to deal with as far as modification. I used TTI mounts and headers, though I'm not sure if the TTI mounts are still available or not. I ran a mechanical Z bar style clutch without issue using that setup. I swapped over to a carb style intake with an MSD box to run the ignition. I did have to run a remote oil filter adapter, though a generic one from Summit/Jegs worked fine.
A more detailed list of parts from what I can remember:
2006 5.7 engine
Pre-09 truck timing cover
Milodon center sump swap oil pan
TTI mounts
TTI headers
MSD Hemi 6 ignition box
Indy ModMan 4bbl intake
Quicktime conversion bellhousing
130 tooth conversion flywheel
10.5" clutch
I had to trim ~5/8" off of the pilot portion of the input shaft of the 833. There is more than enough material there. I went carb initially because I was trying to do the swap as cheap as possible as I was still in college at the time. I also bought my engine with no electronics on it, so I didn't have much for OEM parts to start with. If you got a full donor with harness and PCM, that's probably a better way to do it and would save you the cost of the intake and ignition module.
I've since converted back over to fuel injection, though with the same intake (it had bosses for injectors cast in, I just drilled them out). I'm using a Megasquirt computer. I love it. It drives super smooth and has all the nice-ities of a modern drivetrain (o-rings seals instead of cork/paper gaskets, nice tolerances, good flowing heads, etc.). There is a lot more potential in the engine if I wanted to hop it up vs having to fully build an old school setup. 400 hp in one of these is just a cam swap away, while retaining all the same daily drivable characteristics.
A more detailed list of parts from what I can remember:
2006 5.7 engine
Pre-09 truck timing cover
Milodon center sump swap oil pan
TTI mounts
TTI headers
MSD Hemi 6 ignition box
Indy ModMan 4bbl intake
Quicktime conversion bellhousing
130 tooth conversion flywheel
10.5" clutch
I had to trim ~5/8" off of the pilot portion of the input shaft of the 833. There is more than enough material there. I went carb initially because I was trying to do the swap as cheap as possible as I was still in college at the time. I also bought my engine with no electronics on it, so I didn't have much for OEM parts to start with. If you got a full donor with harness and PCM, that's probably a better way to do it and would save you the cost of the intake and ignition module.
I've since converted back over to fuel injection, though with the same intake (it had bosses for injectors cast in, I just drilled them out). I'm using a Megasquirt computer. I love it. It drives super smooth and has all the nice-ities of a modern drivetrain (o-rings seals instead of cork/paper gaskets, nice tolerances, good flowing heads, etc.). There is a lot more potential in the engine if I wanted to hop it up vs having to fully build an old school setup. 400 hp in one of these is just a cam swap away, while retaining all the same daily drivable characteristics.
mopar65
Well-Known Member
As soon as I get my new torsion bars adjusters I am going to be installing a 650HP stroked 6.1 hemi into my 1970 Duster. But I will be useing a 904 transmission. All I can say is I hope you have lots of $$$$ set aside. Lol
mopar65
Well-Known Member
TTI list 2 diffrent part numbers for the hemi TTI. Ones for stock torsion bars and one for with out torsion bars. Also it took me over 6 weeks to get my 2 inch TTI headers for my hemi swap
Money is an object. Original plan was to stroke a small block. I have a teen and a 360. I can get this 5.7 in a donor car for a grand. I figure what I can save on building an engine will go pretty far on doing the swap. Stock 335 HP is plenty for this old man.
DionR
Well-Known Member
I thought the difference was manual steering and Borgeson? Either way, I figured those nuances were better discussed if we got some specifics.
Original H code car, so V8 K frame and manual steering, no A/C.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Sorry, haven't been in a position to access my cost spreadsheet for a bit so this is kind of late.
Cost can certainly be high, but it doesn't have to be the $10K number some have tossed around for a "low buck" swap. Not that it can't get that way fast, but (I don't think) it has to be that way. I suspect I will have less in my motor and harness together than some have in just their aftermarket harness.
Here is my current costs. Note that some of those prices are from a couple of years ago so things like the $400 exhaust and $500 stainless headers aren't going to happen anymore.
Core 2017 Hemi (Truck) $400.00
Cylinder head refresh $357.52
MVPi3 + credits $473.99
Holley Swap Headers $485.95
Holley Motor Mounts $226.75
Holley Oil pan w/ pickup $475.18
Used PCM $100.00
OE harness(es) $150.00
Dash Harness $50.00
TIPM $20.00
6.4 cam and springs $401.29
Dipstick and PS hoses $137.94
Gas Pedal $20.00
90 degree adapter $167.76
* Lifters $600.00
Car Timing cover (used) $156.00
6.4 Intake (used) $310.37
Throttle body and misc $200.00
* Alternator (used) $200.00
* Water Pump (used) $150.00
* Radiator/fan $250.00
SPECTRA CR11E gas tank $158.79
Used C5 Camaro fuel module $75.00
GTO tank to cut ring out of $100.00
VaporWorx FPRAGM5 $14.99
Exhaust $408.90
* Gaskets, ring, bearings $400.00
Total $6,490.43
Sorry, the spreadsheet wouldn't post so it had to be text.
The lines with asterisks are just guesses at costs. And I don't have anything in there for paying a tuner (if I do), nor for things like fuel lines.
Note that I am doing things a little different in that I will be using the factory PDC and TIPM along with the PCM and plan to run a factory key. So I have been able to go to the wrecking yard and cut harnesses out of '08-10 cars and make what I need. I also plan to run the battery in the trunk and the PDC I grabbed came with a heavy gauge battery cable all for $27.
This includes an '08 specific engine harness that I need to add wires to for things like VVT and SRV controls. But I need to add wires for the clutch switches and reverse lockout too, so I would have had the harness open anyways. I might have been able to find an '09-10 6M harness to start, but those are Challenger only stuff and the one I found on eBay was $250. I'm not going to see one of those ever in my local pick and pull yard.
Also, I plan to pretty much rewire the car and run most everything off the LX/LC architecture. So lights, fuel pump, power, etc. The only thing I don't plan to work into that is the wipers. So this isn't a simple project to use all that I have.
But if someone where to grab an engine harness and engine bay harness so they had all three PCM plugs, it wouldn't be hard to splice in an aftermarket relay/fuse box and save that work and still do it for cheap(er).
Note that I am not including the T56 Magnum I bought and the associated costs related to that swap.
racerjoe
Well-Known Member
Hydraulic throw out bearing not required. I run mechanical linkage with my TKO. Albeit not an 833, the bell housing is the same. Depending on your choice of headers or exhaust manifolds, some modifications may be required to the Z bar.
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